La Vuelta

rick_chasey

Vuelta always needs a novelty angle else no-one will watch it.

This year's Tour was severely lacking in MTFs. Proper ones.

Hard parcours mean the stronger riders rise to the top more quickly and obviously, so it can seem like it 'rewards' doping.

They dope for races they want to do well in. Whether that's the Tour the Giro, the Vuelta, or the classics.

All types of riders dope, GC riders, sprinters, climbers, roulers, domestiques, rubbish riders, amateurs, the lot.

I doubt Contador thought "well, after doping in the Tour, i'll stop now. But wait, those MTFs in the Vuelta I'm coming back on are too tough. Better whip out the syringe".

bigmat

Rick Chasey wrote:

Vuelta always needs a novelty angle else no-one will watch it.

This year's Tour was severely lacking in MTFs. Proper ones.

Hard parcours mean the stronger riders rise to the top more quickly and obviously, so it can seem like it 'rewards' doping.

They dope for races they want to do well in. Whether that's the Tour the Giro, the Vuelta, or the classics.

All types of riders dope, GC riders, sprinters, climbers, roulers, domestiques, rubbish riders, amateurs, the lot.
I doubt Contador thought "well, after doping in the Tour, i'll stop now. But wait, those MTFs in the Vuelta I'm coming back on are too tough. Better whip out the syringe".

Is that the start of a Vaughters-esque confession?

As for Bertie, he might think there's less risk of being caught / sanctioned in a race in Spain. Same for Valverde, whose performance is probably the most surprising. I guess that is probably more of an issue than the parcours (which regardless of doping issues I still think is a bit unbalanced, but I guess it evens out over the course of a GT season).

jonny_trousers

I don't think I could ever enjoy watching professional cycling if I assumed the race leaders were doping.

Relative newbie question: what's the penalty for a previously convicted doper caught again?

gabriel959

I hate Contador and Valverde. J-Rod less so, because he is a great guy, but he has ridden for some really awful teams.

That doesn't take from the fact that yesterday was the best stage I have seen this year at any of the 3 GT. Only comparison would be that amazing Stelvio stage with De Gendt as protagonist.

The performances were also nothing out of the extraordinary. More extraordinary was what we saw at the Tour de France by domestiques performing as well as the leaders for the whole race. At least during the vuelta the domestiques are behaving like ones (droping after a stint at the front) and within their capabilities.

DonDaddyD

I would just like to say that in my opinion Contador did not dope in the purest sense, he unwittingly ingested a banned substance. Yes, the letter of the law says he should be suspended for having a banned substance in his system. However, a doper, to me, is someone who takes banned substances repeatedly for performance enhancing gains.

While I did jokingly mention that we know this race is clean and my personal belife that if someone trains under the influence of performance enhancing drugs (so they train harder, for longer, making them fitter than they naturally would be had they trained without drugs - muscle memory and all that). It's nice to watch this with a suspension of disbelife that everyone is clean.

vermin

DonDaddyD wrote:

It's nice to watch this with a suspension of disbelife that everyone is clean.

This

tailwindhome

gabriel959 wrote:

I hate Contador and Valverde. J-Rod less so, because he is a great guy.

There's some cycling fan logic right there....

Paul E

DonDaddyD wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

I should know better.

Sometimes I just say stuff for effect you know? Sometimes I say stuff because it gets the grumble bums all uppity. You are not a grumble bum, you're better than that.

Rolf wrote:

You don't appear to understand that the 'Sky way' is how you get a non climber to win a Grand Tour.

Actually I do understand that, and when I climb my 'mountains' I find it more manageable than repeated bursts of pedal dancing. HOWEVER, as a spectator the 'Sky way' is boring and that is the perspective I am talking from.

Admitting to saying things with intent of provoking a response, tut tut tut. Don't worry in a few years you will see why people become as you describe it, grumble bums.

As for climbing, I can do both depending on how I feel, I do like putting in a burst on the pedals to demoralise people though.

jonny_trousers

I have to say, whether conscious or not, I've found myself putting in the 'Bertie bounce' on anything even remotely resembling an incline on my commute this week. And to be fair, those Boris Bikes have never been so convincingly dropped.

rick_chasey

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I don't think I could ever enjoy watching professional cycling if I assumed the race leaders were doping.

Relative newbie question: what's the penalty for a previously convicted doper caught again?

Lifetime ban.

vermin

Rick Chasey wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I don't think I could ever enjoy watching professional cycling if I assumed the race leaders were doping.

Relative newbie question: what's the penalty for a previously convicted doper caught again?

Lifetime ban.

That's a bit harsh; he only asked a question.

rick_chasey

jonny_trousers

vermin wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I don't think I could ever enjoy watching professional cycling if I assumed the race leaders were doping.

Relative newbie question: what's the penalty for a previously convicted doper caught again?

Lifetime ban.

That's a bit harsh; he only asked a question.

So is it not fair to assume that Contador and Valverde would be crazy to be riding this Vuelta under the influence?

rick_chasey

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

vermin wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I don't think I could ever enjoy watching professional cycling if I assumed the race leaders were doping.

Relative newbie question: what's the penalty for a previously convicted doper caught again?

Lifetime ban.

That's a bit harsh; he only asked a question.

So is it not fair to assume that Contador and Valverde would be crazy to be riding this Vuelta under the influence?

At their age any ban is more or less a lifetime ban. Might as well make hay. (is that how you spell it?)

tailwindhome

Rick Chasey wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

vermin wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I don't think I could ever enjoy watching professional cycling if I assumed the race leaders were doping.

Relative newbie question: what's the penalty for a previously convicted doper caught again?

Lifetime ban.

That's a bit harsh; he only asked a question.

So is it not fair to assume that Contador and Valverde would be crazy to be riding this Vuelta under the influence?

At their age any ban is more or less a lifetime ban. Might as well make hay. (is that how you spell it?)

It's crazy to inject yourself with blood you keep in your fridge.

These guys can be on a whole different scale of bonkers.

rolf_f

DonDaddyD wrote:

Rolf wrote:

You don't appear to understand that the 'Sky way' is how you get a non climber to win a Grand Tour.

Actually I do understand that, and when I climb my 'mountains' I find it more manageable than repeated bursts of pedal dancing. HOWEVER, as a spectator the 'Sky way' is boring and that is the perspective I am talking from.

Oh, I agree that the way Sky ride is less exciting but unless you do vary the tours so they don't always contrive to suit a favoured rider then you have to accept that a pure climber can be beaten sometimes by the likes of Wiggo and it is no less of an achievement when it happens.

I think it has been great fun and whilst I do think it sad that doping is winning again, I can't help but admire Contadors approach - particularly when he reacts and does something different when plan a isn't working.

But yes, he's probably doing a Lance.

And you need to come up North and climb some properish hills. Not Alps but things that actually involve overall height gains into double cm figures.

jonny_trousers

Congratulations to Contador! Class riding! But what on earth happened that Rodriguez, the man of the tour, managed to mess it up so badly? Immature riding? Poor team management? Terrible shame!

daviesee

I reckon that he tok it too easy on the rest day (all day in bed) and his body went into recovery mode.
Couldn't keep up the next day.

rick_chasey

J Rod ALWAYS has one bad day.

bigmat

Rick Chasey wrote:

J Rod ALWAYS has one bad day.

Except in this year's Giro, where he didn't (as far as I can recall)...

Shame for him, guess it was a mixture of naive tactics, overstretched team, bad legs on the day and impressive attacking riding by his competitors. He still put minutes into most of the GC riders on that stage and lost little if any time to Contador on the final stages of the climb (I think?) so not sure it was that much of a bad day thing, more the other reasons.

Great stage finish on Saturday, been a good advert for the sport of professional cycle racing for any newcomers to the sport watching on ITV4. Hope the tour of Britain provides more of the same (I guess your regular Joe always likes a good crash!)

rolf_f

So does anyone know if there is a list of the results posted without the time bonuses accounted for? Would be interesting to know what the actual times were.

daviesee

BigMat wrote:

.....He still put minutes into most of the GC riders on that stage and lost little if any time to Contador on the final stages of the climb (I think?) so not sure it was that much of a bad day thing, more the other reasons.
.......

He lost 2:38 to Contador the day after the rest day.

jonginge

daviesee wrote:

BigMat wrote:

.....He still put minutes into most of the GC riders on that stage and lost little if any time to Contador on the final stages of the climb (I think?) so not sure it was that much of a bad day thing, more the other reasons.
.......

He lost 2:38 to Contador the day after the rest day.

But only 20s of that was on the final climb. The rest was in the inital part of the break where AC had a couple of team-mates and a willing Tiralongo. J-Rod only had Losada. Nobody else in his group was working.

rick_chasey

JonGinge wrote:

daviesee wrote:

BigMat wrote:

.....He still put minutes into most of the GC riders on that stage and lost little if any time to Contador on the final stages of the climb (I think?) so not sure it was that much of a bad day thing, more the other reasons.
.......

He lost 2:38 to Contador the day after the rest day.

But only 20s of that was on the final climb. The rest was in the inital part of the break where AC had a couple of team-mates and a willing Tiralongo. J-Rod only had Losada. Nobody else in his group was working.

Contador was drilling it on the flats too.

He played to his advantage. He can do stuff besides go really fast up really steep roads.

bigmat

Rick Chasey wrote:

JonGinge wrote:

daviesee wrote:

BigMat wrote:

.....He still put minutes into most of the GC riders on that stage and lost little if any time to Contador on the final stages of the climb (I think?) so not sure it was that much of a bad day thing, more the other reasons.
.......

He lost 2:38 to Contador the day after the rest day.

But only 20s of that was on the final climb. The rest was in the inital part of the break where AC had a couple of team-mates and a willing Tiralongo. J-Rod only had Losada. Nobody else in his group was working.

Contador was drilling it on the flats too.

He played to his advantage. He can do stuff besides go really fast up really steep roads.

He always looks surprisingly good when he has to do spring classics type stuff - cobbles, echelons etc. And a mean time trialler too. However he does it, he does it well.

jonginge

Rick Chasey wrote:

JonGinge wrote:

daviesee wrote:

BigMat wrote:

.....He still put minutes into most of the GC riders on that stage and lost little if any time to Contador on the final stages of the climb (I think?) so not sure it was that much of a bad day thing, more the other reasons.
.......

He lost 2:38 to Contador the day after the rest day.

But only 20s of that was on the final climb. The rest was in the inital part of the break where AC had a couple of team-mates and a willing Tiralongo. J-Rod only had Losada. Nobody else in his group was working.

Contador was drilling it on the flats too.

He played to his advantage. He can do stuff besides go really fast up really steep roads.

Absolutely. The only point I was making was that inital 2minutes was pulled out when it was 4 doing through and off versus one in the J-Rod group. The tactics worked out perfectly but, for sure, AC needed the legs to see it through on the final climb.

daviesee

JonGinge wrote:

daviesee wrote:

BigMat wrote:

.....He still put minutes into most of the GC riders on that stage and lost little if any time to Contador on the final stages of the climb (I think?) so not sure it was that much of a bad day thing, more the other reasons.
.......

He lost 2:38 to Contador the day after the rest day.

But only 20s of that was on the final climb. The rest was in the inital part of the break where AC had a couple of team-mates and a willing Tiralongo. J-Rod only had Losada. Nobody else in his group was working.

Okay, okay. I give in. I still think he was dead in the water regardless of how many people could have helped, his legs were shot and he was rolling at the point where the team car came up but never mind......

More important business :- Re your avatar - Sort out your sleeve length & arm warmer combination.