The demise of Women's cycling

greasedscotsman

So with the AA Drink-Leontien.nl team coming to and end this year...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/olympic ... eam-ending

What would you do to try and avoid this sort of thing happening? Some ideas on Cyclingnews, are these good or bad?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/fou ... ns-cycling

ddraver

All good ideas but the truth is there ISN'T political will and there are no sponsors interested...

It's Chicken and egg situation, while there are no big spiders there are no big races, but while there are no big races there is nothing to sponsor...

rick_chasey

For one day races like the Tour of Flanders and Amstel gold which have the sportive equivalent the day before or after, I can't see a good reason why they don't start the women's race say an hour or two before the sportive starts, and televise it.

RichN95.

ddraver wrote:

All good ideas but the truth is there ISN'T political will and there are no sponsors interested...

It's Chicken and egg situation, while there are no big spiders there are no big races, but while there are no big races there is nothing to sponsor...

They should have more races in Australia then. There are lots of big spiders there.

(damn phones, eh)

TheBigBean

Regarding the TV point, I would like to see squash on TV. It was great watching it in the commonwealth games (there was a similar view about how popular it had been with viewers), but the cold hard reality is that outside of large multi-national events minority sports are not watched. Women's cycling is a minority sport, and is about as likely to make it on to my TV screen as squash, and that's not very likely at all.

ddraver

RichN95 wrote:

ddraver wrote:

All good ideas but the truth is there ISN'T political will and there are no sponsors interested...

It's Chicken and egg situation, while there are no big spiders there are no big races, but while there are no big races there is nothing to sponsor...

They should have more races in Australia then. There are lots of big spiders there.

(damn phones, eh)

Oh for ducks sake!!

greasedscotsman

Rick Chasey wrote:

For one day races like the Tour of Flanders and Amstel gold which have the sportive equivalent the day before or after, I can't see a good reason why they don't start the women's race say an hour or two before the sportive starts, and televise it.

I don't really understand why we can't get coverage of something like the Flanders women's race as it's currently run. Not sure how much earlier it's run than the men's race, something like 2-3 hours, so why not show that and then switch to the men's race. It's not like there's alot happening in the men's race that far from the finish.

OffTheBackAdam

It is down to interest.
How many women do you see out on bikes? Not just on clubruns, but just on bikes?

rozzer32

It's not just women's cycling though, it's all women's sports.

Every week you get men's football matches live, no women's.
Every week you get men's rugby matches live, no women's.
Every week you get men's golf matches live, no women's.

Insert cricket, basketball, darts, snooker, hockey etc into the above. Go have a look on Sky Sports and see what women's events they show.

Cycling is just as bad as any sport. But it isn't as profitable to as it isn't on tele every weekend so the money isn't pumped into it. It's a viscous circle and I can't see it improving.

mroli

@OfftheBackAdam - there was plenty of interest during the Olympic Women's Road Race. The road where I was was mobbed and it was horrible weather.

Agree with @Rozzer - if the TV Channels put women's sports on, people would watch them - they watch women's tennis, they watch women's golf. I think it is a real shame that some products aimed solely at women would rather sponsor real tat, or put their money into "worthless" advertising than promoting professional sport.

@TheBigBean - the problem with squash is that (like hockey) it does not translate well to the small screen. The ball is too small, moves too fast and is hard to pick up. The comparison there is to tennis and football where the ball is bigger, easier to pick up and the dimensions of the court/field are easier to show on tv.

I think pretty much everyone agreed that the women's road race was more exciting than the men's - I just wish the UCI would do something to encourage women's racing.

simona75

This is a bit left field but why don't they just try starting the men's and women's races together (like the marathon) The TV would have two things to focus on and you would always have the chance that some women would get in the men's peloton (and vice versa). You would still have separate men's and women's winners. Not saying that this would be suitable for every event but for some of the lesser one day races this would add a different dynamic.

greasedscotsman

OK, we all know that women's cycling doesn't get the coverage, sponsors and races that the men do, but what would you do about it? Or maybe it's just doomed to the boom and bust Olympic cycle and there is nothing anyone can do about it!

jonginge

simona75 wrote:

This is a bit left field but why don't they just try starting the men's and women's races together (like the marathon) The TV would have two things to focus on and you would always have the chance that some women would get in the men's peloton (and vice versa). You would still have separate men's and women's winners. Not saying that this would be suitable for every event but for some of the lesser one day races this would add a different dynamic.

They don't start elite men's and women's marathons together any more. They wanted to avoid male athletes pacing the lead women (see the fuss about Paula Radcliffe's WR as that was run in a mixed race). This effect would be even more marked in cycling.

jonginge

greasedscotsman wrote:

OK, we all know that women's cycling doesn't get the coverage, sponsors and races that the men do, but what would you do about it? Or maybe it's just doomed to the boom and bust Olympic cycle and there is nothing anyone can do about it!

I'm surprised races like the Giro Donne aren't pushing for TV airtime. I'd watch it

greasedscotsman

JonGinge wrote:

greasedscotsman wrote:

OK, we all know that women's cycling doesn't get the coverage, sponsors and races that the men do, but what would you do about it? Or maybe it's just doomed to the boom and bust Olympic cycle and there is nothing anyone can do about it!

I'm surprised races like the Giro Donne aren't pushing for TV airtime. I'd watch it

Yeah, I'd watch it as well. I'd prefer to watch it compared to something like the Tour of Turkey!

ddraver

Brian Moore (of all people) made a good tweet about this along the lines of there are 8 monthly magazines for women with a readership of 20 million (or 20 mags with 8 million..?) Why not start there?

It's a very very good point. Why are we arguing for the reduction in coverage of men's events that are already popular when products that are specifically focussed for women don't bother to cover anything?

Omar Little

It is not just at the top end but at a grass roots level womens racing is in pretty dire shape - Know a couple of race organisers who have put alot of effort into trying to promote womens races over the last couple of years but it just doesnt seem to be working (whereas the mens racing of which there is so much more of anyway is over subscribed) much to their frustration and that of the women who do race. Even on club runs it is poor, its probably a ratio of about 20 - 1 amongst most clubs - which is itself not going to attract many women into cycling. Jogging/running and triathlon clubs seem to be able to attract women much more easily, what is their secret? Is it simply that more women are involved so it is then more attractive to join?

mattshrops

You've definitely got a point about triathlon being more popular with women. I think the geekiness and equipment centric side of cycling can put SOME women off. and then compare that to the straightforwardness of swimming and running.(I was going to type simplicity but i didnt want anyone to take that the wrong way)
It is frustrating because women bring so much to the club scene. Our club recently put a team of 4 women into the local 12 hr TT event. Awesome.
I really enjoyed the womens olympic RR, and like many of you would watch any womens pro cycling on tv.

Maybe some of our female forumites would care to comment?

mrushton

Women are often put-off road cycling because it looks harder or it's bigged up by male riders etc. They often prefer mtb riding. My gf won't race because she doesn't want to crash but she can easily get over 25mph and hold that pace. She prefers track riding where the dangers of crashing are minimised. She'll also tell you that women are more time pressed with family commitments so long rides/sitting down watching races is not really possible. Triathlon does well because it appeals to women since you don't have to be good at all 3 disciplines - but still req. training. You don't see many women riding who have young children/elderley parents. The womens races are mainly young girls (teens,early 20s) whereas people like Voigt,Downing,Wiggins can have a family and rely on the wife and poss. in-laws to look after the children

knedlicky

Rick Chasey wrote:

For one day races like the Tour of Flanders and Amstel gold which have the sportive equivalent the day before or after, I can't see a good reason why they don't start the women's race say an hour or two before the sportive starts, and televise it.

Some sportives are on the actual big race day (e.g. GP Frankfurt) because it makes sense in terms of road control, logistics, etc. So with the women, why not an hour before the actual men’s race rather than the day before? It’s also then more likely to then get TV coverage.
I think the one time I watched the TdF Femme, it was also the same day as the men: road closed – women –publicity caravan – men (the Superbagneres stage in the 80s, which either Hinault or Lemond won).

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

It is down to interest.
How many women do you see out on bikes? Not just on clubruns, but just on bikes?

You probably mean female interest, but isn’t that irrelevant? Many women watch men’s football (and probably more men than women watch women’s volleyball). All the positive comments about the women’s Olympics RR in the forum were from men (I think).

Mattshrops’ and mrushton’s comments about the ‘geekiness’ some males exhibit and it being ‘bigged up by male riders` probably also plays a role. The women I know who ride want to stay fit, in some cases to a certain triathlon level, but there are a couple of male members of my club who won’t join a training ride if women are present, saying they’ll hold everyone back, which of course isn’t true anymore than many males. I don't think such opinions put women off, but they are obviously not encouraging.

knedlicky

ddraver wrote:

Brian Moore (of all people) made a good tweet about this along the lines of there are 8 monthly magazines for women with a readership of 20 million (or 20 mags with 8 million..?) Why not start there?

Aren’t most women’s magazines (perhaps not all, I don’t know what the likes of Cosmopolitan might have in it nowadays) orientated more to the female equivalent of the male ‘pipe and slippers’ type?
Although having said that, I’d be surprised if the magazines didn’t sometimes occasionally have articles recommending sport-type activities to prevent overweight, osteoporosis, etc - but more likely power-walking a couple of years ago, and zumba nowadays, nothing as 'extreme' as cycling.

Maybe if just the local papers covered women’s races it would help – I went to watch a women’s race Wigan-way a couple of years ago, but the local press had neither an advance article or a subsequent report. It could have taken place at the North Pole.
The recent women’s Route de France was extremely well covered in the local French press, both before (which resulted in good crowds along the route too) and after. The different stage towns also made a fuss and an occasion of it (smaller festivity versions of what goes on when the TdF visits a town), which I imagine also helps interest and acceptance.

It’s not just a matter of sudden national magazine or TV coverage, but the local press, local council, local tourist agency, all need to regard any women’s cycling event as something worth covering and advertising.

knedlicky

Off the thread topic, but still …

mroli wrote:

the problem with squash is that (like hockey) it does not translate well to the small screen. The ball is too small, moves too fast and is hard to pick up.

Don’t agree with this as an argument - ice hockey is televised and very popular in the USA, Canada and many European countries. I’m sure the people there don’t have better eyesight.

JonGinge wrote:

They don't start elite men's and women's marathons together any more. They wanted to avoid male athletes pacing the lead women

I think this isn’t true overall, it varies with location and organiser; some elite still do start together.
Although why women shouldn’t use males as pacemakers, when males have male pacemakers, but usually there are no female pacemakers, I don’t know.

Cakegirl

OK I'll be the token female forumite!

I've no idea how to start racing or what sort of level I need to be to even try. There's not much provision locally. A lot of girls only seem to want to ride the track. Other than that it might be a 40 minute crit where I'm guessing I'd be shelled straightaway - all that petrol money and travel time and not even a decent training session out of it. I'm not in the first flush of youth and I'm quite small so riding fast on the flat isn't my best thing. Yes I do intervals and specific training for that and have improved a lot, but outright power ..nah, not so much.

However if I enter a sportive, I get 4-6hours of riding in fabulous countryside, challenging hills, use and improve my full range of skills, nail it up a few climbs and get into a bit of a sprint at the end with the lads, and finish -well certainly top half of the entry. Hillier the better! If I puncture not all is lost, if the weather is bad I can decide to ride more sensibly and stay upright. If other commitments mean I can't train as much, then I can still challenge myself.

So: flexibility, ease of access, terrain, duration are better on the alternatives to racing. I still have a hankering to try though.......

TheBigBean

mroli wrote:

@TheBigBean - the problem with squash is that (like hockey) it does not translate well to the small screen. The ball is too small, moves too fast and is hard to pick up. The comparison there is to tennis and football where the ball is bigger, easier to pick up and the dimensions of the court/field are easier to show on tv.

That is the generally held belief, except that during the commonwealth games it was very popular - people could see the ball during that time. I know that I'm the only person who wants to watch it outside of the commonwealth games - I'm just making the point that women's cycling is very similar in its lack coverage. The perception is that it is not as entertaining as men's, and one race at the olympics won't change this, especially as the bulk of the viewers won't watch cycling again for another four years.

Separately, the PTP scores for the women's race do indicate that it is somewhat more predictable than the men's race, especially as the bulk of people picking (like me) have never watched a women's race before, but were still able to score highly in women's race.

Le Commentateur

My other sport is cross country skiing and I am a big fan of biathlon. It is interesting to compare the Cinderella sport of women's cycling with these sports. The governing bodies have had the advantage of having set up the modern structure of the sports, at least at world cup level, to give equal emphasis to male and female sides, including TV coverage. One of the problems the UCI probably has is that the big races are all owned by private companies, who have no incentive or interest in promoting a women's event – this may be as much a cultural thing (right-wing working class heritage) as much as a strictly financial one.

The other problem is money. With biathlon I've noticed that Germany in recent years has had more successful female biathletes than the men, so these women are big stars at home. This has also created a situation where cross country skiers now want to switch to biathlon because it is potentially more lucrative. But anyway, for this sport they have an arrangement with the armed forces, police and customs agency so that they are officially employed by these organizations but are mainly training/competing – it's a roundabout method of enabling state sponsorship of the athletes, instead of relying on short-term business sponsors such as exist in cycling.

Le Commentateur

TheBigBean wrote:

mroli wrote:

Separately, the PTP scores for the women's race do indicate that it is somewhat more predictable than the men's race, especially as the bulk of people picking (like me) have never watched a women's race before, but were still able to score highly in women's race.

That's largely because a certain Dutch rider is dominant. If there was more money and structural stability in women's cycling she wouldn't be winning so often. Another way of looking at it is to say that the difference between 1st place and 30th place in men's cycling is so miniscule that for armchair connoisseurs it is unpredictable – a lottery.

ocdupalais

Le Commentateur wrote:

My other sport is cross country skiing and I am a big fan of biathlon...

You have other sports!?!...You utter strumpet.

ocdupalais

Cakegirl wrote:

I've no idea how to start racing or what sort of level I need to be to even try.

Ironically, given your sportive experience and predilection for the hills, you'd probably cope better with higher-end (regional) women's racing than the equivalent men's racing: without knowing any more than you've mentioned, that is (i.e. have you got much experience of riding in a fast moving bunch? would you say you're adept at following wheels and knowing which way the wind is coming from on a twisty-turny course? etc). My other half started riding seriously last year, and she's already riding the women's National Series with the likes of junior World Champion Lucy Garner, Para-Olympian Sarah Storey, etc. Obviously, I'm biased and think my woman's amazing: but essentially, if you're committed and get good coaching/support, etc, I'd say it's "easier" to achieve results and get noticed in women's racing than men's (it's never truly easy: but the sheer numbers of men racing mean that the basic level is fundamentally higher). Unfortunately, the rewards are nowhere near comparable.

Give it a go, though: despite one or two current sponsorship blips, I reckon we're about to enter a glory phase for women's racing.

Wheelspinner

JonGinge wrote:

greasedscotsman wrote:

OK, we all know that women's cycling doesn't get the coverage, sponsors and races that the men do, but what would you do about it? Or maybe it's just doomed to the boom and bust Olympic cycle and there is nothing anyone can do about it!

I'm surprised races like the Giro Donne aren't pushing for TV airtime. I'd watch it

Possibly a silly question, but since the Donne was on at the same time as the TdF, would you have watched it *instead* of Le Tour, or been happy with watching it later on?

For a broadcaster, that's a big problem if you do both live. Split your audience, double your costs, make advertising revenue twice as hard to generate and hope it was worth it. Plan B is replay the recorded action later, but when? And who will watch it if the results are already known, or just as importantly, the cycling viewer (you) has already used up his allotted TV time watching the TdF. I watched very little of Le Tour this year simply because I don't have the time, even with recording it, let alone setting aside hours to watch another event, no matter how good it is.

The scheduling of (road) races is the single biggest hurdle for women's cycling I think. Track is easy because the facility is fixed, and you can run it day or night all year round if you have to. Road? You have local councils, police, traffic, community groups for and against, then you get weather.

And to be honest, even though that CN article notes all big women's races are "filmed", that's a hell of a long way from being recorded in such a way as being suitable for TV broadcast to a wider audience. Commentary teams, all the local feature bits etc make a broadcast interesting. I don't enjoy watching La Vuelta on telly at all because the footage is so crap by comparison. Not even HD. Sniff.

In the current environment, *any* sport is going to struggle to break into the big time in terms of sponsorship and TV coverage, simply because that means another one will have to be booted off the screen.

Gladiator

I think its a real shame that womens road cycling isnt shown on tv. Unlike a lot of other female sports, the action, tactics and general team performances relate pretty well to mens cycling, just a tad slower thats all, but pretty much the same viewing experience. Compare that to say womens football and theres a vast difference in ability if you are used to watching top flight mens footie so isnt so great to watch.

But womens cycling doesnt suffer with that as cycling is cycling, the root core of it doesnt change be it male or female and is simply relative. If ITV2 showed the Giro Donne i would watch it, it just needs someone with balls at ITV to go for it, also i believe ITV have now got a reputation as being a cycling tv station due to their Tour and Halfords coverage but its almost like they dont realise it, someone over there needs to wake up and realise they could get even more viewers, especially if they started showing more womens races.

And us blokes and cyclng fans can do our part by watching womens races (and lets face it, the womens Olympic road race was better than the mens) and promoting it for the girls. We dont like to admit we live in a mans world still but we do and sponsors know it when it comes to sports so us guys should give the girls a hand up and start shouting that we want womens races on tv. Once you get the ball rolling, sponsors will see its popular and want to get involved.

lloyd_bower

rozzer32 wrote:

It's not just women's cycling though, it's all women's sports.

Every week you get men's football matches live, no women's.
Every week you get men's rugby matches live, no women's.
Every week you get men's golf matches live, no women's.

Insert cricket, basketball, darts, snooker, hockey etc into the above. Go have a look on Sky Sports and see what women's events they show.

Cycling is just as bad as any sport. But it isn't as profitable to as it isn't on tele every weekend so the money isn't pumped into it. It's a viscous circle and I can't see it improving.

Yeah, sad but practically the only women's sports that near to equivalent coverage as men's sports are tennis and athletics. Tennis at the slams, the women get equal pay, more I guess as they don't play best of 5.