TDF Stage 17 *spoiler*

Jez mon

knedlicky wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Earthbound wrote:

We really ought to stop calling them Sky and call them what they are, Team GB, all be it with some Aussies and Danes thrown in. But the approach, the professionalism, the attention to detail, the commitment, the determination, the planning, the execution, everything really, has evolved from Team GB. An approach to performance who's roots go back to Kean and Boardman in Barcelona 1992.

Yes, team GB where 3 of the riders are from GB (out of 9). 2 out of the 6 managers are British.
They're an international team.

Brit leader though.
S'better than sodding Rabo.

Rabo or not, Sky isn't truelly a GB team, it was originally a Dutch concern not a GB one.
Nowadays, based on subscriber figures, Sky also doesn't have the British Isles for its basis income - it has about 11.5 million subscribers in Italy compared to 11.0 million in the GB and Ireland.

Given many of the comments here (national pride taking over ability), thank goodness the Tour doesn't have national teams any more. Many Wiggins' supporters must be Chelsea fans.

Meh, it's (sort of) the road counterpart to the Team GB track team. It's just they aren't hamstrung by a British rider only selection policy. From the accents on display in yesterday's Vicky P doc, Team GB (track) seems to have a bunch of foreign coaches.

skylla

LeicesterLad wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Think of the excitement you felt this time last year going into the final TT. A World away.

That sums it up pretty perfectly.

No it doesn't. Last year's TT had exactly the expected outcome! This year we will find out how much there is between CF and BW after 3 weeks of racing! Judging by what most of you think that the TDF is somehow a duel between these 2 men you should be rightly so excited.....

RichN95.

So,
Basques supporting Euskaltel are expressing their identity
Italians supporting Liquigas are passionate
Dutchmen supporting Rabobank are fanatical
Frenchmen supporting Europcar are romantics and
Belgians supporting Quick Step are steeped in culture

But if you're British and want to support Sky you're a johnny-come-lately, nationalist who only watches cycling in July while 'real fans' prefer someone with 'panache' (but only until they get busted).

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

So,
Basques supporting Euskaltel are expressing their identity
Italians supporting Liquigas are passionate
Dutchmen supporting Rabobank are fanatical
Frenchmen supporting Europcar are romantics and
Belgians supporting Quick Step are steeped in culture

But if you're British and want to support Sky you're a johnny-come-lately, nationalist who only watches cycling in July while 'real fans' prefer someone with 'panache' (but only until they get busted).

What's your point?

Though I wouldn't could the Dutch fanatical...

slim_boy_fat

Just seen an interview with Wiggins on Sky Sports News where he said Froome and he spoke on the descent before the final climb and he told Froome to go for the win. Does that then mean it was Froomes choice to wait for Wiggins?

Anonymous

As a good lad he wanted Wiggo there too. True gent.

(no sarcasm intended)

LesDiablesRouges

RichN95 wrote:

So,
Basques supporting Euskaltel are expressing their identity
Italians supporting Liquigas are passionate
Dutchmen supporting Rabobank are fanatical
Frenchmen supporting Europcar are romantics and
Belgians supporting Quick Step are steeped in culture

But if you're British and want to support Sky you're a johnny-come-lately, nationalist who only watches cycling in July while 'real fans' prefer someone with 'panache' (but only until they get busted).

To be accuate the true Belgian team is Lotto Bellisol.

Daz555

ddraver wrote:

I never feel excited by a TT...

They are needed though to allow the guys with the biggest engines to shine without their team looking after them.

I hate team time trails though. Bloody stupid.

RichN95.

LesDiablesRouges wrote:

To be accuate the true Belgian team is Lotto Bellisol.

Not for everyone:

Moomaloid

Don't think i've ever intentionally supported a team... riders yes, teams no. Oh actually tell a lie... Z Peugeot when i was a nipper, but again that was more coz of Millar and Duclos-Lassalle.

oneof1982

knedlicky wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Earthbound wrote:

Given many of the comments here (national pride taking over ability), thank goodness the Tour doesn't have national teams any more. Many Wiggins' supporters must be Chelsea fans.

Have I missed something? Is there a team, or individual who for some reason has more ability than sky but has chosen not to ride up the mountains, or complete the time trials as fast as Wiggo et al.?

Even if some think sky are boring or the tour has not been as exctiting as they seem to remember from the old World of Sport Days,or that uniquely sky should have abandonded their team leader whilst he was in yellow (bizarre I know but would have spiced it up a bit - and would have been an interesting meeting with the sponsors), I can't think of a team in the race with more ability than sky. But happy to be corrected, but don't mention the lovely TV.

plectrum

GentlemanBear wrote:

Froome put time into Wiggins in the '11 Vuelta though no? Half a minute over a similar distance if memory serves. A Wiggins victory silences the doubters as far as I'm concerned, Froome taking more than 30" gives them ammo.

Yep and then the day after lost 30 seconds to Wiggins in a climb: La Vuelta A Espana - 2011 - 2011 - Stage 11

Wiggins at present is a better overall cyclist and through a GC the worthy winner. This year he's won, Romandie Paris Nice & Dauphine.

What we know is that Wiggins never has been a instant response rider in the hills but steady diesel plod. Froome certainly can explode but what it would mean if it was left to play out, who knows. Different styles.

Daz555

I wonder if Wiggins will now take it easy in the TT with half an eye on the RR and Olympic TT or if he will want to send a message about who is the man on this Tour?

He goes last so unless be bonks massively it is entirely up to him I suppose. As he said today "you could bet your house on me not to lose that sort of time".

RichN95.

Daz555 wrote:

I wonder if Wiggins will now take it easy in the TT with half an eye on the RR and Olympic TT or if he will want to send a message about who is the man on this Tour?

He goes last so unless be bonks massively it is entirely up to him I suppose. As he said today "you could bet your house on me not to lose that sort of time".

No chance. This is no time to get complacent. Eyes on the prize and all that guff. What he needs to be thinking about is how he's going manage to get a few pints down him on Sunday night without Cav's critical eye seeing.

mfin

frenchfighter wrote:

"Pure climbers are another breed. They still talk about sensations rather than numbers, and about things like the feel of their pedals. They exist partly outside of the training mannual, partly beyond numerical definition and do things very much on intuition. They are a living reminder of an old way of cycling, the spiritual descendants of mountain kings like Bahamontes, Charly Gaul and Van Impe" - CycleSport.

This is the antithesis of Sky.

Well, that all sounds very romanticised, but if its true and it works, where were all the people 'from this mould' then in this years climbs? Busy falling off the back, and being out-performed by those who aren't as cycle-romantic?? Feel of their pedals didn't do them much good. Cyclesport need an invigorating cheesy soundtrack to accompany that comment.

Of course, we could also align this romanticism to the odd doper or two, to detract from reality.

This kind of cack portrays an image where some people are suffering and non-emotional, where the next person feels no effort and is doing nothing much, thats the problem with this rubbish, over emotionalising it all. They all turn themselves inside-out, and every person every day who gets dropped feels that pain and effort if they've been trying. Heart is a wonderful thing, but it does not make the result every time, its not the marker, most of the time it is only the small difference, otherwise the guys with this amazing feel and heart would cycle at 100mph.

Plus, from the original quote (which is romanticised guff) ...where are the people who climb who talk about numbers rather than sensations??? I cant think of any who cross the line and start talking 'watts'???

mfin

Some good stuff in amongst the naive stuff here. The race was/is what it was this year, and to be fair, some real talent coming through and some good Tommy V efforts made for a good watch in the earlier part of the day today.

Daz555

frenchfighter wrote:

"Pure climbers are another breed. They still talk about sensations rather than numbers, and about things like the feel of their pedals. They exist partly outside of the training mannual, partly beyond numerical definition and do things very much on intuition. They are a living reminder of an old way of cycling, the spiritual descendants of mountain kings like Bahamontes, Charly Gaul and Van Impe" - CycleSport.

This is the antithesis of Sky.

That is undiluted bullcrap. Cyclists feeling such bollox today have probably just been dieseled by the likes of Wiggins.

RichN95.

frenchfighter wrote:

"Pure climbers are another breed. They still talk about sensations rather than numbers, and about things like the feel of their pedals. They exist partly outside of the training mannual, partly beyond numerical definition and do things very much on intuition. They are a living reminder of an old way of cycling, the spiritual descendants of mountain kings like Bahamontes, Charly Gaul and Van Impe" - CycleSport.

This is the antithesis of Sky.

Charly Gaul climbed with high cadence at a steady speed, rarely getting out of the saddle - just like Wiggins. He also won all three time trials when he won his Tour. He would have been a power meter man, no doubt.

mfin

Daz555 wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

"Pure climbers are another breed. They still talk about sensations rather than numbers, and about things like the feel of their pedals. They exist partly outside of the training mannual, partly beyond numerical definition and do things very much on intuition. They are a living reminder of an old way of cycling, the spiritual descendants of mountain kings like Bahamontes, Charly Gaul and Van Impe" - CycleSport.

This is the antithesis of Sky.

That is undiluted bullcrap. Cyclists feeling such bollox today have probably just been dieseled by the likes of Wiggins.

Exactly, where were they? and its all 'adjective this' and 'adjective that'... and when someone does put in some sort of performance and it suits a particular person's narrative, out come the adjectives and this kind of nonsense comes out as some kind of psuedo-romantic-reasoning behind a performance. Its nothing short of rubbish.

dave_1

why did Wiggins take the front for a lengthy spell on the final climb was what I was wondering ? Had he sat behind Froome he could have hung for a mile more and saved himself from that humbling Froome gave him + with hand gestures. I wonder if Froome had been given his freedom on the two hilly stages he clearly would have dropped wiggins, but what would the time gap be? I guess Froome would have a minute of a lead right now. Brad has to do Froome in the TT..60 seconds + of a win for me to feel ok with what Sky have done as strategy

jim453

Dave_1 wrote:

why did Wiggins take the front for a lengthy spell on the final climb was what I was wondering ? Had he sat behind Froome he could have hung for a mile more and saved himself from that humbling Froome gave him + with hand gestures. I wonder if Froome had been given his freedom on the two hilly stages he clearly would have dropped wiggins, but what would the time gap be? I guess Froome would have a minute of a lead right now. Brad has to do Froome in the TT..60 seconds + of a win for me to feel ok with what Sky have done as strategy

What Dave said.

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

So,
Basques supporting Euskaltel are expressing their identity
Italians supporting Liquigas are passionate
Dutchmen supporting Rabobank are fanatical
Frenchmen supporting Europcar are romantics and
Belgians supporting Quick Step are steeped in culture

But if you're British and want to support Sky you're a johnny-come-lately, nationalist who only watches cycling in July while 'real fans' prefer someone with 'panache' (but only until they get busted).

Do you want me to to post my graph again?

You know, the one that shows those teams are mainly made up with people from those countries.

:P

frenchfighter

iainf72

cyclingfans: L'Equipe gives Froome a score of 2/10 for his talents as an actor in Stage 17 finale. "More Mr. Bean than Daniel Day-Lewis."

LeicesterLad

RichN95 wrote:

So,
Basques supporting Euskaltel are expressing their identity
Italians supporting Liquigas are passionate
Dutchmen supporting Rabobank are fanatical
Frenchmen supporting Europcar are romantics and
Belgians supporting Quick Step are steeped in culture

But if you're British and want to support Sky you're a johnny-come-lately, nationalist who only watches cycling in July while 'real fans' prefer someone with 'panache' (but only until they get busted).

You seem to have taken the wrong angle here Rich. Fine have a pop at me, but what about the Dozens who are on here, telling people like me 'oh you don't like wiggins because its cool not to' 'Wiggins is british, you HAVE to support him', It doesn't matter whether the race is exciting or not, its patriotic to support team Sky so therefore you are an IDIOT if you don't like wiggins or Sky'.

So f*cking what if he's British, so f*cking what if the Belgians like belgian riders, is it now a law to support your countrymen? The Shoebomber was British, were you keen on him too?

Works both ways Richard.

Like I said, have a pop at me, but i think most of these debates have been started by someone saying 'Meh, i'm not keen on sky' followed by everyone else saying 'They are British mate, whats wrong with you, why are you trying to be cool?'

Where has this sudden need for Patriotism in every single sport come from? :?

oldwelshman

Dave_1 wrote:

why did Wiggins take the front for a lengthy spell on the final climb was what I was wondering ? Had he sat behind Froome he could have hung for a mile more and saved himself from that humbling Froome gave him + with hand gestures. I wonder if Froome had been given his freedom on the two hilly stages he clearly would have dropped wiggins, but what would the time gap be? I guess Froome would have a minute of a lead right now. Brad has to do Froome in the TT..60 seconds + of a win for me to feel ok with what Sky have done as strategy

Dave, I recall you were very sure froome would do wiggo in the TT but you have been slow to acknowledge he was well beaten in the TT so I guess your also sure know Froome would be ahead by a minute had he had a free rein. With all respect theis is utter bollox as you know and you have no way of quantifying this at all, you have no idea if Froome would have attacked and gapped Brad or if he woucl have cracked and got blown out the back which is just as likely given how uneven his performances have been on the climbs having been dropped once and looking frail at certain times. Ho9w do you know how he would respond had he attacked, then wiggo claw him back for froome to get dropped? Would he then crack and drop more or recover and pass brad again? It is ok to post here and say "oh froome is stronger and would have gained 1 minut 32.2 seconds" but in fact you have no idea either way same as me. I think strong as he is, he would not sustain enough to crack and drop wiggo by far if at all.
Oh and why does he have to win tt by 60 seconds to satisfy you? I am sure sky won't worry if they dont satisfy you and get a 1 2 on the podium in paris

moray_gub

LeicesterLad wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

So f*cking what if he's British, so f*cking what if the Belgians like belgian riders, is it now a law to support your countrymen? The Shoebomber was British, were you keen on him too?
?

You are being a bit of drama queen over this and your Shoebomber comment is quite frankly ridiculous.

LeicesterLad

Moray Gub wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

So f*cking what if he's British, so f*cking what if the Belgians like belgian riders, is it now a law to support your countrymen? The Shoebomber was British, were you keen on him too?
?

You are being a bit of drama queen over this and your Shoebomber comment is quite frankly ridiculous.

Quite probably but I do like to camp it up a little. Just honestly don't get this patriotism things, it's not a nationality based team sport, in reality. I am just a fan of cycling, watching entertaining bicycle riding. Sorry if that makes me a nazi.













*Godwins

mari blanc

At the margins of the Wiggins/Froome/Sky issues, did anyone notice the moment when Kloden punctured yesterday? Zubeldia, his team's best-placed rider, had lost contact with the Wiggins group, and happened to be cycling past as Kloden got his bike fixed, looking over at his team "mate". Kloden escaped as fast as he could back up the road, without having acknowledged him in any way, not even making eye contact. Someone mentioned that Zubeldia ghosts his way into the tdf top tens. So he really is an invisible man!

moray_gub

Dave_1 wrote:

why did Wiggins take the front for a lengthy spell on the final climb was what I was wondering ? Had he sat behind Froome he could have hung for a mile more and saved himself from that humbling Froome gave him + with hand gestures. I wonder if Froome had been given his freedom on the two hilly stages he clearly would have dropped wiggins, but what would the time gap be? I guess Froome would have a minute of a lead right now. Brad has to do Froome in the TT..60 seconds + of a win for me to feel ok with what Sky have done as strategy

If Brad wins the Tour as now looks likely then i cant see how their strategy can be critcised other than maybe not providing much entertainment.