2012 Tour De France Spolier Thread
Comments
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Today's stage was the one that we rode as the Etape du Tour on Sunday. Fantastic to see it all on TV from the safety of my sofa, but the last climb brought on sweats and flashbacks! Breathtaking how quickly even the slowest riders covered the stage. What an amazing race....0
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Greg66 wrote:TailWindHome wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Greg66 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Anyone else read Froome's hardcore attack and obvious team radio chat afterwarsa as a big "LOOK AT ME I'M STRONGER THAN WIGGO" sign?....Or is that just me?
Nope. That's what it was, as was his sprint over teh last 200m, and rather guarded post race interview. He knows he's the strongest rider in the mountains right now, and so does Wiggo.
Whether - if he was not on Sky and didn't have the Sky machine working with him - he could pull out enough time in the mountains to hold off Wiggo in the final TT is an interesting question.
I don't know why sky don't let him TBH.
Does it matter which one wins? It's not like one is more British than the other. Makes sense to let the strongest win.
Cos letting Froome 'fly' is all risk and no reward.
Quite.
First, the team drew in sponsorship based on Wiggins being the no 1 rider. You or I may be happy to see any old Brit win, but someone who's pumped in mega bucks may have a marketing drive geared up around Wiggins (three time Oly gold medallist, reasonably well known to the GBP), and not particularly want to have to parachute Froome into that drive.
Secondly, Froome may well have contractual provisions that limit his ability to go native mid race. His job is to ride for Wiggins, so it would be a bit odd in many ways if that job was not explicitly spelled out in his contract.
Thirdly, Froome looked to have cracked on the lower slopes and then recovered. Say Sky had let him go. Wiggins is left isolated. Froome was dragging Nibali with him. Suddenly it's not just Froome taking time out of Wiggins; Froome is helping Nibali do so too. Then if Froome has a power outage a bit further up the road, or has one tomorrow, or the day after, where does that leave Sky? They've just used their super-domestique to gift a Tour they had in the bag to Nibali. Sponsors won't like that.
Sky have a plan, and it's working. I'd stick to it if I were Yates and not rip it up and go freestyle mid-Tour based on a single climb.
Froome, OTOH, must be wondering why he thought it was a good idea to sign to Sky for three years. As I said earlier, in a different world he could now be looking at his second GT crown (Wiggins, OTOH, might be thinking that his form this year is no better than last year, and were it not for his broken collar bone he would be defending the number 1 this year).
1). Wiggins wasn't even signed up to sky when they started the team.... They had to wrestle him off Garmin.
2) Froome's there to help Sky win the Tour, right? He's even a Brit. If he's the strongest in the race, it makes sense to back him. Rather like they always should have down in the Vuelta. Being kept on the leash has already lost him (and sky) one Grand Tour.
3) Froome had taken a proper turn on the front, and still had the effort to take a flyer - and even sprint for the finish after that and more pacing. He was also the strongest up the belle filles. It's clear that he's the stronger rider uphill, and he only lost 30 seconds in the TT. His performances in the Vuelta, especially in the 3rd week, reflect the same. That Wiggins can't hold Nib's wheel when all he needs to do is follow when Froome is off up ahead suggests even more than Froome is the stronger rider.
4) The plan should be flexible. Like I said, it makes sense the strongest rider being in yellow, rather than the big name, since a stronger rider is more likely to hold on to it, right?
5) - obviously the most important point - Froome is the only person who can take it to Wiggins, and I'll be disappointed that the spectacle I'm looking for will be enied. It'd be bloody exciting if Froome took it to Wiggins and they fought it out - and think of how good the Brits would feel then. If they keep Froome on a a tight leash it's going to be one dull Tour.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:There's no downside to Froome gaining time, tactically. Wiggin's own personal pride maybe.
Team pride? Perhaps Sky have been backing the wrong man for the win and maybe Froome is the better rider, but then again maybe not. The plan, whatever it may be, is clearly working so why mess around with it? If Wiggins wasn't lucky enough to have his incredible team mates around him he'd obviously have to ride more aggresively (and therefore more excitingly), but he does.0 -
Ahem
What was that again, biatches....okgo wrote:
You do talk a lot of utter bollocks.DDD wrote:No it isn't. While Cadel isn't necessarily explosive he can, and has in the past as it has been done to him, chip away at the race leader. In the high mountains Cadel will attack, attack and attack (or as Cadel put it last year "ride into the wind"). He has nothing to lose.
For every stage win Cadel now goes for Bradley will have to keep him in check and stay with him. Bradley (and Cadel) also needs to keep an eye Nibali and make sure that Chris Froome doesn't dick Bradley over again, like he did at the Vuelta.
It wouldn't surprise me if Froome, who may still be up there by Thursday, starts thinking "If I go for this stage win...." If Bradley even hints at weakness it wouldn't surprise me if Froome spends a couple days in yellow (possibly in Paris).
Anyway....... :roll:
So we are all discussing Froome as a viable conteder.
The thing with Froome is that he looks lively compared to Wiggins constant perfect metronome like cadence. It makes him look strong and if the leash were to be let go off it wouldn't be unthinkable to see the majority of the attacks coming from him.
Furthermore today Froome did more work than Wiggins did when he dragged him back to Nibali's group. Froome was on the front towing Wiggins all the way - the guy at the front always has to work harder than those following - when he got to the group, Froome was able to attack, Wiggins, admitted later in post race interview, 'needed a breather'. Whether intentionally or not that was a signal that (i) he is stronger or as strong as Wiggins and (ii) he is a contender.
Wiggins is lucky he has the strongest rider in the Peloton on his team. He is also lucky that, unlike the Veluta, they've got under a bit more control. I bet in the TT he eases off a bit....
ETA: This isn't even about form. This is the second tour that Froome has looked as strong, if not more lively, than Wiggins and therefore a viable alternative/potential competitor.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:Ahem
What was that again, biatches....okgo wrote:
You do talk a lot of utter bollocks.DDD wrote:No it isn't. While Cadel isn't necessarily explosive he can, and has in the past as it has been done to him, chip away at the race leader. In the high mountains Cadel will attack, attack and attack (or as Cadel put it last year "ride into the wind"). He has nothing to lose.
For every stage win Cadel now goes for Bradley will have to keep him in check and stay with him. Bradley (and Cadel) also needs to keep an eye Nibali and make sure that Chris Froome doesn't dick Bradley over again, like he did at the Vuelta.
It wouldn't surprise me if Froome, who may still be up there by Thursday, starts thinking "If I go for this stage win...." If Bradley even hints at weakness it wouldn't surprise me if Froome spends a couple days in yellow (possibly in Paris).
Anyway....... :roll: .
You were also told what would happen.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Greg66 wrote:TailWindHome wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Greg66 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Anyone else read Froome's hardcore attack and obvious team radio chat afterwarsa as a big "LOOK AT ME I'M STRONGER THAN WIGGO" sign?....Or is that just me?
Nope. That's what it was, as was his sprint over teh last 200m, and rather guarded post race interview. He knows he's the strongest rider in the mountains right now, and so does Wiggo.
Whether - if he was not on Sky and didn't have the Sky machine working with him - he could pull out enough time in the mountains to hold off Wiggo in the final TT is an interesting question.
I don't know why sky don't let him TBH.
Does it matter which one wins? It's not like one is more British than the other. Makes sense to let the strongest win.
Cos letting Froome 'fly' is all risk and no reward.
Quite.
First, the team drew in sponsorship based on Wiggins being the no 1 rider. You or I may be happy to see any old Brit win, but someone who's pumped in mega bucks may have a marketing drive geared up around Wiggins (three time Oly gold medallist, reasonably well known to the GBP), and not particularly want to have to parachute Froome into that drive.
Secondly, Froome may well have contractual provisions that limit his ability to go native mid race. His job is to ride for Wiggins, so it would be a bit odd in many ways if that job was not explicitly spelled out in his contract.
Thirdly, Froome looked to have cracked on the lower slopes and then recovered. Say Sky had let him go. Wiggins is left isolated. Froome was dragging Nibali with him. Suddenly it's not just Froome taking time out of Wiggins; Froome is helping Nibali do so too. Then if Froome has a power outage a bit further up the road, or has one tomorrow, or the day after, where does that leave Sky? They've just used their super-domestique to gift a Tour they had in the bag to Nibali. Sponsors won't like that.
Sky have a plan, and it's working. I'd stick to it if I were Yates and not rip it up and go freestyle mid-Tour based on a single climb.
Froome, OTOH, must be wondering why he thought it was a good idea to sign to Sky for three years. As I said earlier, in a different world he could now be looking at his second GT crown (Wiggins, OTOH, might be thinking that his form this year is no better than last year, and were it not for his broken collar bone he would be defending the number 1 this year).
1). Wiggins wasn't even signed up to sky when they started the team.... They had to wrestle him off Garmin.
2) Froome's there to help Sky win the Tour, right? He's even a Brit. If he's the strongest in the race, it makes sense to back him. Rather like they always should have down in the Vuelta. Being kept on the leash has already lost him (and sky) one Grand Tour.
3) Froome had taken a proper turn on the front, and still had the effort to take a flyer - and even sprint for the finish after that and more pacing. He was also the strongest up the belle filles. It's clear that he's the stronger rider uphill, and he only lost 30 seconds in the TT. His performances in the Vuelta, especially in the 3rd week, reflect the same. That Wiggins can't hold Nib's wheel when all he needs to do is follow when Froome is off up ahead suggests even more than Froome is the stronger rider.
4) The plan should be flexible. Like I said, it makes sense the strongest rider being in yellow, rather than the big name, since a stronger rider is more likely to hold on to it, right?
5) - obviously the most important point - Froome is the only person who can take it to Wiggins, and I'll be disappointed that the spectacle I'm looking for will be enied. It'd be bloody exciting if Froome took it to Wiggins and they fought it out - and think of how good the Brits would feel then. If they keep Froome on a a tight leash it's going to be one dull Tour.
Are you seriously saying that if you were in Sean Yates seat you'd be telling Froome to go for it?
From a Sky point of view there's no benefit. As it stands this cumulation of a long strategy and is a procession to Paris for a 1-2 finish. Why blow it just to swap the riders in the 1-2 slots?
Say Froome attacks and puts 2 minutes plus into Wiggins to take yellow. What happens next? Who do Porte, Rodgers etc ride for?
Froome took the million do to this job - best get on with it....
Also even going for the stage win is dumb. There's still 10 days to Paris, at some point the sh*t may hit the fan and Sky may need help. Taking stage wins off other team isn't a smart play. Even if it doesn't happen in the tour cyclist's have long memories.....IIRC Sky learned this lesson early on in the project.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
What they said. Wiggins is team leader. You ride for your leader. End of. Wiggins is probably fitter than he was at last year's Vuelta, but, in fairness, he's not placed in the difficulty he (and the dilemma Sky faced) then.
Froome is 26. His chance will come. Patience, young Luke, as Obi Wan would say.
@twh - my bad re earlier.FCN 2-4.
"What happens when the hammer goes down, kids?"
"It stays down, Daddy."
"Exactly."0 -
From Monday.....
So Brad wins this year with the promise to Chris that he gets it next year.daviesee wrote:Touting a Hinault/Lemond style race then?
Might not be that boring :P
And the treachery/tactics begin again.....
Don't quite see Brad as Bernard though.
None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:I'll be disappointed that the spectacle I'm looking for will be enied. It'd be bloody exciting if Froome took it to Wiggins and they fought it out
You seem to follow pro cycling closely, so when did you start looking forward to the spectacle of a team leader going head to head no holds barred with his super-Domestique right hand man? You must have realised by now that that just doesn't happen, surely.0 -
He paced Wiggins back to Nibali on the climbs but this does not involve any more work than the men behind - no aero benefit when riding so slowly. Also Froome had two mini blow-ups and rested twice on the flatter sections - when who was it taking the wind? Ahh yes, it was Wiggins. Froomes recovery was incredible though - credit to him.DonDaddyD wrote:Furthermore today Froome did more work than Wiggins did when he dragged him back to Nibali's group. Froome was on the front towing Wiggins all the way - the guy at the front always has to work harder than those following - when he got to the group, Froome was able to attack, Wiggins, admitted later in post race interview, 'needed a breather'. Whether intentionally or not that was a signal that (i) he is stronger or as strong as Wiggins and (ii) he is a contender..
Wiggins can take 2 mins out of the whole field in the last TT if he wants - including Froome.
Froome - defo could be a contender in the future. Can you imagine - Brits winning back to back Tours!
You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.0 -
Greg66 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:I'll be disappointed that the spectacle I'm looking for will be enied. It'd be bloody exciting if Froome took it to Wiggins and they fought it out
You seem to follow pro cycling closely, so when did you start looking forward to the spectacle of a team leader going head to head no holds barred with his super-Domestique right hand man? You must have realised by now that that just doesn't happen, surely.
2009 Tour. Armstrong Contador.
2004 Giro. Simoni Cunego.
Any TdF with T mobile with Ulrich, Vino and Kloden on the same team.
1997 Tour. Ulrich Riis.
1986. LeMond -Hinault.
Etc etc.
It's rare, but it happens. It adds a whole dimension to the fight. Hotel tensions, who do the domestiques work for etc etc.0 -
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Sorry but for the sake of accuracy I have to correct you on that one.Rick Chasey wrote:
1986. LeMond -Hinault....
Hinault was supposed to be riding for Lemond and insists to this day that his tactics won it for Greg.
Others (including Greg) saw it otherwise but that was the team orders.
1. Lemond. 2. Hinault.None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.0 -
cjcp wrote:What they said. Wiggins is team leader. You ride for your leader. End of. Wiggins is probably fitter than he was at last year's Vuelta, but, in fairness, he's not placed in the difficulty he (and the dilemma Sky faced) then.
Froome is 26. His chance will come. Patience, young Luke, as Obi Wan would say.
This^
I have literally had two colleagues come in and wind me up about "Froome being stronger and shouldn't have waited.." Red in the face, I shouted the above back at them.. :oops:
Also Brailsford has said in the past Froome has struggled pacing himself, attacking 5km out would have seen him blow up, Nibali and JVB bridge any gap and Wiggins losing time. Its all very exciting to watch but tactically doesn't gain anything. He tried it with Cobo last year and it didn't work ...
Why does this issue get me so uptight!?? :oops:0 -
pitchshifter wrote:
Why does this issue get me so uptight!?? :oops:
'Cos of what happened in the Vuelta? :P0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:pitchshifter wrote:
Why does this issue get me so uptight!?? :oops:
'Cos of what happened in the Vuelta? :P
Shhhhhhh..0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Greg66 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:I'll be disappointed that the spectacle I'm looking for will be enied. It'd be bloody exciting if Froome took it to Wiggins and they fought it out
You seem to follow pro cycling closely, so when did you start looking forward to the spectacle of a team leader going head to head no holds barred with his super-Domestique right hand man? You must have realised by now that that just doesn't happen, surely.
It's rare, but it happens. It adds a whole dimension to the fight. Hotel tensions, who do the domestiques work for etc etc.
Yeah, that's just what Team Sky want, isn't it? :roll:0 -
ketsbaia wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Greg66 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:I'll be disappointed that the spectacle I'm looking for will be enied. It'd be bloody exciting if Froome took it to Wiggins and they fought it out
You seem to follow pro cycling closely, so when did you start looking forward to the spectacle of a team leader going head to head no holds barred with his super-Domestique right hand man? You must have realised by now that that just doesn't happen, surely.
It's rare, but it happens. It adds a whole dimension to the fight. Hotel tensions, who do the domestiques work for etc etc.
Yeah, that's just what Team Sky want, isn't it? :roll:
That wouldn't be very professional though Rick, it is Team Sky 'Professional' Cyling after all..0 -
pitchshifter wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:pitchshifter wrote:
Why does this issue get me so uptight!?? :oops:
'Cos of what happened in the Vuelta? :P
Shhhhhhh..
Exactly.
Same thing is being repeated, albeit with no competition.
Take this situation:
Say Wiggins has a shocker in the circle of death stage and Froome is feeling good. What do they do. Sacrifice Froome to pace up Wiggins, and lose time on both? Or send Froome up to protect his lead and leave Wiggins to it?
If Froome has a shocker than it's fine anyway, it'd be the same as it is now.
Always good to hedge your bets - even in cycling.0 -
This shit just got real folks:
[url=ttp://road.cc/content/news/61829-team-sky-wags-show-strain-tour-hots-up]ttp://road.cc/content/news/61829-team-s ... ur-hots-up[/url]…-twitterMud - Genesis Vapour CCX
Race - Fuji Norcom Straight
Sun - Cervelo R3
Winter / Commute - Dolan ADX0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Take this situation:
Say Wiggins has a shocker in the circle of death stage and Froome is feeling good. What do they do. Sacrifice Froome to pace up Wiggins, and lose time on both? Or send Froome up to protect his lead and leave Wiggins to it?
If Froome has a shocker than it's fine anyway, it'd be the same as it is now.
Always good to hedge your bets - even in cycling.
How does Froome attacking Wiggins now help in that scenario?
If anything team infighting expends energy and makes that scenario more likely.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
So what you're really saying is that you prefer tactically dubious, contract-breaking, team-destroying backstabbing because you find it more interesting?Rick Chasey wrote:It adds a whole dimension to the fight. Hotel tensions, who do the domestiques work for etc etc.0 -
It's not infighting if Wiggins accepts he's stronger and that they're both going for shortest time on GC.
It's only if he gets offended that Froome wants to go it alone.
If it was a real team effort, they'd be happy whoever won/was doing well, right?0 -
bompington wrote:
So what you're really saying is that you prefer tactically dubious, contract-breaking, team-destroying backstabbing because you find it more interesting?Rick Chasey wrote:It adds a whole dimension to the fight. Hotel tensions, who do the domestiques work for etc etc.
Ja duh. Obviously.
More exciting than a Wiggins impression of Indurain.
But you can avoid that and still hedge your GC bets.
If Froome is stronger than Wiggins, it makes sense to let him off the leash. Harness it. After all, as long as team sky wins right?0 -
TailWindHome wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Take this situation:
Say Wiggins has a shocker in the circle of death stage and Froome is feeling good. What do they do. Sacrifice Froome to pace up Wiggins, and lose time on both? Or send Froome up to protect his lead and leave Wiggins to it?
If Froome has a shocker than it's fine anyway, it'd be the same as it is now.
Always good to hedge your bets - even in cycling.
How does Froome attacking Wiggins now help in that scenario?
If anything team infighting expends energy and makes that scenario more likely.
The problem is, Nibali is eyeing second place. Will Froome be willing to sit back and watch his second place go?
If he stays with Wiggins, "Team Sky" will win the tour and that is the aim. If Froome attacks he could just drag the others with him reducing that 2 minute gap to Nibali. Lets also remember Wiggins is likely to put close to a minute into Froome on the TT..
Yesterday was by far the hardest stage.. If Wiggins has a shocker, then for sure Froome has to go.0 -
Nice choice. Wiggins hero? Indurain.Rick Chasey wrote:More exciting than a Wiggins impression of Indurain.
May explain some things.
By the by, Wiggins doesn't do sudden accelerations so will always look more boring and as if he isn't attacking.
That doesn't mean that his finish time will be more though. Gradual catch up pacing is his style. Boring to watch but effective so far.None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:IF Froome is stronger than Wiggins
This has been discussed a lot in more than one thread - I would suggest that so far it's at best inconclusive: you would have a stronger argument if Froome wasn't two minutes behind, for a start.
PS: There's something about your tone in this thread, Rick - are you sure Rundfahrt hasn't hacked your account? ;-)0 -
bompington wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:If Froome is stronger than Wiggins
He was yesterday.
He also was when he won the stage.
If we extrapolate from the Vuelta, he also does better as the race goes on.
We'll see, but me thinks he's the strongest man in the peloton right now.0 -
All other things being equal, they'd be happiest that whoever the sponsors put more money into won I expect. If Wiggins wasn't looking good then things might change, but he is so why rock the boat/sponsors.Rick Chasey wrote:It's not infighting if Wiggins accepts he's stronger and that they're both going for shortest time on GC.
It's only if he gets offended that Froome wants to go it alone.
If it was a real team effort, they'd be happy whoever won/was doing well, right?0 -
Wiggo just needs to sit tight and win the Tour. If Froome picks up some glory on the way then thats great. I think they both know this.0
