Tiered classiness.

rick_chasey
rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
edited May 2012 in Pro race
Warning! Heavy infogram/infograph usage!

that's how we do it around here

Fun sponges - this is just for fun. It's not really serious ;)



Let's sort this out good and proper.

Note: These first infograms are made by Iainf72

Iain's given us a good start point for two important issues.


Issue #1:

Chipper or not?

How should we rank the races. Iain's broadly right with his three tierd system.

tumblr_m2l4n19Ek91qcn3m5o1_r1_500.png



Issue #2:

Rider classiness.

Iain's right that in this day and age, riders should be classed by their speciality.

tumblr_m3ptrbFudo1qcn3m5o1_500.jpg

I'd suggest firstly, this is lacking content (i.e. numbers) and some are disputable - is Schleck really a tier above Evans for example?
_
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Comments

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Tier 3 TT - Chavanel, Millar, Lvotkwist or whatever his name is?
    _
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    Tier 3 GT Riders: Rodriguez, Sanchez
    Tier 1.5 Classics: Sagan - the coming man
    Tier 2 Classics: Pozatto. Stuck to Boonen's wheel

    Cannae read your races rankings properly, but TdF needs to separated from the likes Tirreno Adriatico.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Timoid. wrote:

    Cannae read your races rankings properly, but TdF needs to separated from the likes Tirreno Adriatico.

    You can get a high-res here

    http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2l4n ... 1_1280.png
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Blimey it's no wonder I don't watch as much cycling as I used to if that's the extent of the GC talent on offer...

    My only other point would be this isn't the Bike Radar list, it's Iain's list. I wouldn't have every sprint finish as a chipper and I have even been known to enjoy a bike race on occasion. :wink:
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Tier 3 Classics is surely the likes of Hushovd and a revolving door of axe-faced Flandrians who never win anything (The likes of Lief Hoste in his day).
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    oh for crying out loud who gives a flying f11ck!

    Watch the race and enjoy it, if you can't there are plenty of other sports out there for you to enjoy - may I suggest WWE? It's getting hard not to start every post in Pro Race with "some people need to grow up!"
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    ddraver wrote:
    oh for crying out loud who gives a flying f11ck!

    Watch the race and enjoy it, if you can't there are plenty of other sports out there for you to enjoy - may I suggest WWE? It's getting hard not to start every post in Pro Race with "some people need to grow up!"

    Actually, I'm on this train.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Let's sort this out good and proper.

    Iain's given us a good start point for two important issues.


    Issue #1:

    Chipper or not?

    How should we rank the races. Iain's broadly right with his three tierd system.

    tumblr_m2l4n19Ek91qcn3m5o1_r1_500.png

    I still don't know whether that's meant to refer to races as being worth winning or being worth watching.

    Is the Giro d'Italia really such a fantastic race? Apart from one stage in 2010, I've always been fairly disappointed by it because it tends just to be a procession race during which one of the 2 top tier riders who bothers to turn beats the 2nd tier riders by stage 10.
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    God things must be bad. We're in the middle of the 2nd most important bike race and we're ranking riders and races? OK, I know it's the rest day, but the racing must be pretty bad!

    Oh and Evans, 2nd tier Grand Tour rider? Whereas Andy Schleck 1st? That can't be right! :wink:
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Worth winning John. It's like the Tour, it's rubbish a lot of the time from a viewing perspective, but it's important.

    Although, I hate cycling I hear. And I need to grow up.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    johnfinch wrote:
    ...it tends just to be a procession race during which one of the 2 top tier riders who bothers to turn beats the 2nd tier riders by stage 10.

    That sounds quite exciting race to me. :wink:
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    As promised - The Current State of Sprinting (excluding Bennati, I forgot him)

    The black curve (inaccurately) represents the general career progression of a first class sprinter.

    sprinterspic.jpg
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    RichN95 wrote:
    As promised - The Current State of Sprinting (excluding Bennati, I forgot him)

    The black curve (inaccurately) represents the general career progression of a first class sprinter.

    I likey!

    Good work.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,434
    iainf72 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    As promised - The Current State of Sprinting (excluding Bennati, I forgot him)

    The black curve (inaccurately) represents the general career progression of a first class sprinter.

    I likey!

    Good work.


    Bike Radar Race/Rider Graders

    Tier 1 Rich
    Tier 2 Iain


    I'll not include FF - that would just be trolling
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    Why is EBH not top tier for every category, he's the next Eddy Merckx don't you know!

    I like the idea tbh, probably says something about my nature though...

    Grand tours are often, by their nature slightly boring, personally, the times I've put enough effort into following the giro, I've enjoyed it more than the tour.

    But Evans a second rate GT rider with Andy a first rate? Not sure about that
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,651
    You could map that sprinter career curve per sprinter as a stacked bar chart, with colours representing UCI points as winner, UCI points from other podiums, UCI points from lower positions.

    Something like this:

    stackedbar.png


    Get to it ;-)
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Jez mon wrote:
    But Evans a second rate GT rider with Andy a first rate? Not sure about that

    Andy is the only person, who in a head to hear fight has come close to Contador. He's the only person I can see who's capable of beating him, when they're both at their best.

    I'm a huge Cadel fan, but Andy is better than him. Weaker in the head though
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    iainf72 wrote:
    Jez mon wrote:
    But Evans a second rate GT rider with Andy a first rate? Not sure about that

    Andy is the only person, who in a head to hear fight has come close to Contador. He's the only person I can see who's capable of beating him, when they're both at their best.

    I'm a huge Cadel fan, but Andy is better than him. Weaker in the head though

    I'd say Andy is just ahead of Cadel but it's definitely contestable.

    The gap between Andy and Cadel over a whole GT, with Cadel on form (an important caveat) is smaller than the gap between Contador and Andy.

    Cadel's been too inconsistent though. Andy's plenty more consistant in the Tour - and let's be honest, that's THE test for the GTers.
    _
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,651
    iainf72 wrote:
    Jez mon wrote:
    But Evans a second rate GT rider with Andy a first rate? Not sure about that

    Andy is the only person, who in a head to hear fight has come close to Contador. He's the only person I can see who's capable of beating him, when they're both at their best.

    I'm a huge Cadel fan, but Andy is better than him. Weaker in the head though

    Of course head to head we know who won out of Schleck and Evans. On a "climbers TdF" at that.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    Andy's been consistently useless in TTs though, and I would say that's a key part of winning the test for GT riders
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    No tA Doctor wrote:

    Of course head to head we know who won out of Schleck and Evans. On a "climbers TdF" at that.

    They've both won the Tour once.

    I did have Cadel in the top tier but moved him down.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    iainf72 wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:

    Of course head to head we know who won out of Schleck and Evans. On a "climbers TdF" at that.

    They've both won the Tour once.

    I did have Cadel in the top tier but moved him down.

    Schleck's far more consistant in the Tour, so far.
    _
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    Schleck's far more consistant in the Tour, so far.

    Yep. Andy's finished 5 Grand Tours. 3 x 2nd place, 1 x win and 1 x 12'th.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    But this ranking system isn't about who's best, Schleck or Evans. As it stands, Evans is ranked alongside Nibali, Basso and Scarponi? That can't be right. OK, Basso has won the Giro twice, but Nibali? A Vuelta win puts him alongside Evans? No, not right at all. I can't take this ranking system seriously at all.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    But this ranking system isn't about who's best, Schleck or Evans. As it stands, Evans is ranked alongside Nibali, Basso and Scarponi? That can't be right. OK, Basso has won the Giro twice, but Nibali? A Vuelta win puts him alongside Evans? No, not right at all. I can't take this ranking system seriously at all.

    In the TdF, would you rate Nibali and Evans roughly the same in terms of chances to win, if Bert and Andy were there?
    Or would you rate them the same as Bert and Andy? Do you think Nibs is less good than Evans?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,462
    The new EBH, Sagan, doesn't even make it onto Rick's ranking! Presumably there was supposed to be a Hors category tier that got missed? ;) Would argue Wiggins should be a tier 1 tter, he can beat Martin and just looks classy when riding a TT bike.

    Good work on the sprinters chart Rich, would Andy Fenn make tier 3 yet?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    iainf72 wrote:
    Do you think Nibs is less good than Evans?


    Yes, in short.
    _
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Pross wrote:
    The new EBH, Sagan, doesn't even make it onto Rick's ranking! Presumably there was supposed to be a Hors category tier that got missed? ;) Would argue Wiggins should be a tier 1 tter, he can beat Martin and just looks classy when riding a TT bike.

    Cut me some slack, I did it in 5 minutes. :lol:

    Let's figure out where things go and I can update it. Unless one of the dour puritans comes along and forbids us from having fun.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,651
    iainf72 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    Schleck's far more consistant in the Tour, so far.

    Yep. Andy's finished 5 Grand Tours. 3 x 2nd place, 1 x win and 1 x 12'th.

    But Evans has 2 2nd place Tour finishes, plus a 4th and an 8th, plus a 3rd and 4th in the Vuelta and a 5th in the Giro.

    Finished 12 GTs, podium in 4 of them, top 5 in 3, top 10 in one.

    The palmares are in his favour. By a long way.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    edited May 2012
    iainf72 wrote:
    In the TdF, would you rate Nibali and Evans roughly the same in terms of chances to win, if Bert and Andy were there?
    Or would you rate them the same as Bert and Andy? Do you think Nibs is less good than Evans?

    Yes, Nibali isn't as good as Evans at the Tour. Look at his record, 20th and 7th. No where near as good as Evans. I would rate Basso higher than Nibali.

    But as Tour winner, I'd put Contador Schleck and Evans as 1st tier and then the Giro/Vuelta winners as 2nd.

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