hope pro2 or superstar ?

Johnny Napalm

Hope with Merlin...without doubt. Never had any issues with Mavic rims, or Merlin - exceptional build quality.

Once bitten!

benpinnick

@CWNT; Hmm, I have to say I disagree. The only substantial difference is the 120 pawl freehub, which I don't see is worth anything in reality. Almost every other hub manufacturer in the world has tinkered with the number of pawls, but they all come back to something lower due to reliability as a rule. With only 3 pawls (one less than hope) you have less dirve engagement, on far shallower ratchet. I dont see this is a benefit. When Chris King went to 72 pawls, they redisgned the whole ratchet to accomodate the extra teeth without If you want quick pick up, look at something like a Machine tech hub. That was properly quick pickup. I use to have one, and it was cool, but to be honest I dont miss the instant engagement. It was nice, but not all that. As with regards to INdustry Nine to superstar - I am sure the boys in North Carolina wont thank you for comparing their hubs that are machined and manufactured by them in their own workshop to mass produced ones from Taiwan. I would say Hope is much closer to Industry 9 than SS.

Not saying SS hubs aren't good - just saying I cant see what you're paying the extra money for with the trizoid. You seem to pay a massive premium over the switch to 1) save no weight 2) get the same bearings etc 3) get a faster but likely less reliable freehub. When SS ditch their tramp-stamp logo and realistically price their Trizoid hubs I might be tempted, but until then, no thanks.

little wiser

Johnny Napalm wrote:

Hope with Merlin...without doubt. Never had any issues with Mavic rims, or Merlin - exceptional build quality.

Once bitten!

This was the first idea mavic 717 with hope hubs from Merlin for around the 280 mark after discount etc. But and its a big but all this talk of superstar pay less get the same? Or pay the same as Merlin build and get a lot better wheel ?????

cat_with_no_tail

Hang on a minute then. If quicker engagement is not worth extra money, what is? Weight? I've already said, the hopes are a massive 6g lighter than the Trizoids.
Customer service? Superstar have always been at least as helpful as Hope.
Rolling resistance? The only hubs I've tried that are noticably different are some old XTRs.

As for longevity, making an assumption that they'll not last seems a little flawed when a. you've never tried one. and b. there is a stack of assploded Pro2s sat around.
Now I'm not saying all pro2s are like that, that would be silly, but if you're gonna make assumptions that SS hubs are not going to last, I'll make the assumption they will.

You say almost every other hub manufacturer has come back to lower engagement as a rule due to reliability. I'd argue it's more down to the cost affecting the reliability. The fact SS have gone to the far east and bulk buy means they can get it done cheaper.

I couldn't really give a monkeys if the "boys in North Carolina" wouldn't thank me. You can't assume something is inherently better or worse just because of where it's manufactured. This same tired argument gets rolled out every time someone wants to justify spunking a load of money on something "made in Britain"
Comparing trizoid hubs with I9 is clearly flawed, I've never tried I9 for longer than a ride round a carpark, I was referring more to the 120pt engagement, the sound, the weight etc. I was trying to illustrate that you can't really compare them with Hopes either in that sense.

As for tramp-stamp logos, really? logos? You're going to go there?

cat_with_no_tail

Now I've said all that, £50 says my new trizoid explodes on the first ride

felix.london

Cat With No Tail wrote:

Now I've said all that, £50 says my new trizoid explodes on the first ride

Ordered a custom build Switch EVO (in go-faster-red) & Arch EX (with go-faster-red-alloy-nipples) last week. If all is good with that I think I'll go for a Trizoid/Arch EX rear.

Hoping it's gonna be perfect out the box as sending it back to SS for re-tensioning from France is not really an option

benpinnick

Cat With No Tail wrote:

Hang on a minute then. If quicker engagement is not worth extra money, what is? Weight? I've already said, the hopes are a massive 6g lighter than the Trizoids.
Customer service? Superstar have always been at least as helpful as Hope.
Rolling resistance? The only hubs I've tried that are noticably different are some old XTRs.

As for longevity, making an assumption that they'll not last seems a little flawed when a. you've never tried one. and b. there is a stack of assploded Pro2s sat around.
Now I'm not saying all pro2s are like that, that would be silly, but if you're gonna make assumptions that SS hubs are not going to last, I'll make the assumption they will.

You say almost every other hub manufacturer has come back to lower engagement as a rule due to reliability. I'd argue it's more down to the cost affecting the reliability. The fact SS have gone to the far east and bulk buy means they can get it done cheaper.

I couldn't really give a monkeys if the "boys in North Carolina" wouldn't thank me. You can't assume something is inherently better or worse just because of where it's manufactured. This same tired argument gets rolled out every time someone wants to justify spunking a load of money on something "made in Britain"
Comparing trizoid hubs with I9 is clearly flawed, I've never tried I9 for longer than a ride round a carpark, I was referring more to the 120pt engagement, the sound, the weight etc. I was trying to illustrate that you can't really compare them with Hopes either in that sense.

As for tramp-stamp logos, really? logos? You're going to go there?

I think maybe you didn't read my post. I didn't say that they:

Were heavier or lighter (other than earlier where I clearly said it was a slight benefit).
_Would_ fail - only that others who had been there either substantially reworked the design, or keep coming back to the lower ratchet numbers - maybe its cost, maybe not.
All I said was that I couldn't see why the trizoids were so expensive compared to the Switch, and I couldn't see why. That was all.

stubs

If you think £60 for a hub is expensive you really should get a better job. Its buttons what you worrying about, last night I went through a £100 by the time, taxis food and drink and going to see a band were totted up.

If I was counting the pennies I would have got a Mavic XM319 rims on plaingauge spokes brass nipples and Deore hubs. Would have been just as tough weighed a bit more and cost me about £130.

I got the Trizoid hub because I wanted to tart my bike up a bit, was it worth it getting a red Trizoid hub nope, do I like the Trizoid hub yes, would I buy another yes.

felix.london

stubs wrote:

If you think £60 for a hub is expensive you really should get a better job. Its buttons what you worrying about, last night I went through a £100 by the time, taxis food and drink and going to see a band were totted up.

If I was counting the pennies I would have got a Mavic XM319 rims on plaingauge spokes brass nipples and Deore hubs. Would have been just as tough weighed a bit more and cost me about £130.

I got the Trizoid hub because I wanted to tart my bike up a bit, was it worth it getting a red Trizoid hub nope, do I like the Trizoid hub yes, would I buy another yes.

What?! Spending your own money tarting up your own bike with something that is not the best/lightest/cheapest/most reliable bit of kit available?..how very dare you

Johnny Napalm

This was the first idea mavic 717 with hope hubs from Merlin for around the 280 mark after discount etc. But and its a big but all this talk of superstar pay less get the same? Or pay the same as Merlin build and get a lot better wheel ?????

I was in the same predicament a while back. I decided to go the cheaper SS route and, in my experience, proved to be a big mistake.

I had a Mavic/Hope build three years back from Merlin, which is still going strong, but I decided (for my other bike) to save a few quid and go for the SS option. I'm not going to bad-mouth anyone, but the truth is I had issues after two weeks of riding, and less-than-great customer service. The build continued to be troublesome, after repairs, and cost me money to return etc. I haven't even bothered putting that wheel back on since the last repair because I have no faith in it. I am not a big guy (far from it), and I ride like a pansy, so the issue didn't lie there.

Expensive lesson learned, and like I say I'm not going to start bad-mouthing, but I have not returned to that retailer since, and now purchase elsewhere. All future wheel-builds, for me, will be by Merlin.

Maybe I was unlucky, which sometimes happens, but the customer-care was very sadly lacking, which is why I will no longer purchase from there. You might get a great quality build that's lasts for aeons, but it's a chance I'll never take again.

Good luck with whatever choice you make, mate. :-)

stubs

felix.london wrote:

stubs wrote:

If you think £60 for a hub is expensive you really should get a better job. Its buttons what you worrying about, last night I went through a £100 by the time, taxis food and drink and going to see a band were totted up.

If I was counting the pennies I would have got a Mavic XM319 rims on plaingauge spokes brass nipples and Deore hubs. Would have been just as tough weighed a bit more and cost me about £130.

I got the Trizoid hub because I wanted to tart my bike up a bit, was it worth it getting a red Trizoid hub nope, do I like the Trizoid hub yes, would I buy another yes.

What?! Spending your own money tarting up your own bike with something that is not the best/lightest/cheapest/most reliable bit of kit available?..how very dare you

stubs

Johnny Napalm wrote:

This was the first idea mavic 717 with hope hubs from Merlin for around the 280 mark after discount etc. But and its a big but all this talk of superstar pay less get the same? Or pay the same as Merlin build and get a lot better wheel ?????

I was in the same predicament a while back. I decided to go the cheaper SS route and, in my experience, proved to be a big mistake.

I had a Mavic/Hope build three years back from Merlin, which is still going strong, but I decided (for my other bike) to save a few quid and go for the SS option. I'm not going to bad-mouth anyone, but the truth is I had issues after two weeks of riding, and less-than-great customer service. The build continued to be troublesome, after repairs, and cost me money to return etc. I haven't even bothered putting that wheel back on since the last repair because I have no faith in it. I am not a big guy (far from it), and I ride like a pansy, so the issue didn't lie there.

Expensive lesson learned, and like I say I'm not going to start bad-mouthing, but I have not returned to that retailer since, and now purchase elsewhere. All future wheel-builds, for me, will be by Merlin.

Maybe I was unlucky, which sometimes happens, but the customer-care was very sadly lacking, which is why I will no longer purchase from there. You might get a great quality build that's lasts for aeons, but it's a chance I'll never take again.

Good luck with whatever choice you make, mate. :-)

I have had 3 sets of wheels from Merlin 2 were great and are still going strong. The 3rd set wasnt such a good build the rear wheel had to go back for a re-true straight out of the box, it bust a spoke on the 1st ride and this went on an on every ride either invovled a re-true or spoke replacement. I ended up buying new spokes pulling the wheel apart and rebuilding it myself. It was definitely a Friday afternoon special.

Wheelbuilding is not an easy task and some wheels no matter what never seem to work even the best wheelbuilders build stinkers. A mate has had a set of SS for a while now they have done lots of miles had the snot beaten out of them and are still round and wobble free. The bearings died quite quickly but I beat him round the head for using a jet washer and fitted a new set for £30.

widge34

This is a debate that will go on and on. Yesterday I purchased Stans Crests on Switch Evo hubs from Superstar. At the moment I can't decide whether to cancel and purchase the Crests with Hope Pro II hubs from Merlin for an extra £80 or stick with what I've ordered.

stubs

widge34 wrote:

This is a debate that will go on and on. Yesterday I purchased Stans Crests on Switch Evo hubs from Superstar. At the moment I can't decide whether to cancel and purchase the Crests with Hope Pro II hubs from Merlin for an extra £80 or stick with what I've ordered.

You will be fine with either Merlin or SS they sell thousands of sets of wheels and you will get the occasional duff wheel from either shop. As for the hubs I dont think there is much in it the Hopes have ocasional problems with the front hub splitting and the rear hub flanges being soft and the spoke holes elongating. The Switch bearings arent the best but are very easy to service and fit quality bearings. Hopes customer service in my experience is slightly better than SS but not much in it they are both fine.

Basically I would say pick the one you like the look of better theres no real world difference.

benpinnick

stubs wrote:

If you think £60 for a hub is expensive you really should get a better job. Its buttons what you worrying about, last night I went through a £100 by the time, taxis food and drink and going to see a band were totted up.

If I was counting the pennies I would have got a Mavic XM319 rims on plaingauge spokes brass nipples and Deore hubs. Would have been just as tough weighed a bit more and cost me about £130.

I got the Trizoid hub because I wanted to tart my bike up a bit, was it worth it getting a red Trizoid hub nope, do I like the Trizoid hub yes, would I buy another yes.

Lol. I have a fine job thanks. I bought these yesterday (hope Pro II evos, crests and Rev spokes) to build for my pub hack, so thanks for the advice, but 'tarting' up my main bike with a Trizoid seems unlikely. Nothing wrong with them I'm sure, just unlikely none the less.

Johnny Napalm

'Tis true - this is a debate that is ongoing.

All you can do is listen to the general consensus and then take the plunge. You'll soon get your own experiences and then be able to take that onboard for future purchases.

Getting the odd duff component happens (that's life - nothing is 100% all the time), but it's how a company responds to that quality issue/complaint that makes the difference

widge34

To be honest I've bought a fair bit of stuff from Superstar and haven't had a problem yet.

stubs

benpinnick wrote:

Lol. I have a fine job thanks. I bought these yesterday (hope Pro II evos, crests and Rev spokes) to build for my pub hack, so thanks for the advice, but 'tarting' up my main bike with a Trizoid seems unlikely. Nothing wrong with them I'm sure, just unlikely none the less.

Yet your quite happy to be all sniffy about someone elses choice of wheels and then go and buy a top set of wheels for a pub hack :?

As a pub bike is a bike that is already pre stolen just waiting for the day when the guy with bolt cutters gets round to it, seems a big waste of a good set of wheels. Anyone who is desperate enough to nick my pub bike is welcome to it cost me £15 from the local charity shop.

little wiser

I leave you all alone for not even a day and all hell breaks loose.

little wiser

widge34 wrote:

This is a debate that will go on and on. Yesterday I purchased Stans Crests on Switch Evo hubs from Superstar. At the moment I can't decide whether to cancel and purchase the Crests with Hope Pro II hubs from Merlin for an extra £80 or stick with what I've ordered.

Please let me know how you get on with the crests from superstar.

benpinnick

stubs wrote:

benpinnick wrote:

Lol. I have a fine job thanks. I bought these yesterday (hope Pro II evos, crests and Rev spokes) to build for my pub hack, so thanks for the advice, but 'tarting' up my main bike with a Trizoid seems unlikely. Nothing wrong with them I'm sure, just unlikely none the less.

Yet your quite happy to be all sniffy about someone elses choice of wheels and then go and buy a top set of wheels for a pub hack :?

As a pub bike is a bike that is already pre stolen just waiting for the day when the guy with bolt cutters gets round to it, seems a big waste of a good set of wheels. Anyone who is desperate enough to nick my pub bike is welcome to it cost me £15 from the local charity shop.

Lol. Only one of us said the other needed a better job. One mans cheap is another man's expensive I guess. Still can't see why the Trizoid is so much more than the Switch though. Its hard to compare, so using the Supperleggera as the benchmark:

As far as I know:

1) They are both Joy Industry hubs
2) They are the same weight or near enough
3) they have the same bearings
4) the cheaper one is rated for DH, whereas the expensive one isnt.....
5) One has 120 points on the ratchet - Its not like Superstar had to invent the 120 pick up or anything Halo superdrives have had them for ages too.

Add in the extra £100 to go Switch to trizoid into the mix and:

1) its now heavier
2) its now £100 more.
3) you're back to being rated to DH again.

It still makes no sense.

supersonic

Add in the extra £100 to go Switch to trizoid into the mix and:

What wheels are we comparing here? Is the £100 just for this rear hub upgrade to trizoid?

benpinnick

Yep.

supersonic

Maybe I am missing a bit lol... £220 for the Switch Evo on Crests with Sapim 14/15g DB spokes, or £300 for the front Switch Evo, and a rear Trizoid with CX Ray? Or a different set? A lot of choices!

benpinnick

Sorry, the thread digressed a while back.... The gist is that I can't get the price difference between the trizoid hubs and the switch. Some people think this is because I can't afford the hubs, so need a different job. Later, the same people thought it was because my job was too good, and I couldn't be seen with such a cheap hub. Somewhere in the middle, we debated whether the Trizoid ratchet was any good, and whether having 120 pick up points was worth the extra money. CWNT tried to convince me that this makes the SS hubs more like Industry nine than hope, but I remain unconvinced.

supersonic

What I am seeing is you pay £80 more, get the Trizoid rear hub, CX Rays, reduce weight by 130g and pay £80 more. If you use the Crests. Seems good to me! So is not just the hub you are upgrading, but spokes.

Mccraque

I've bought a pair of Crest on Superstar hubs @ £220 and my mate has done likewise. We're both using them for general XC, racing and trail

So far - which has been 3 months they have been SUPERB.

In both instances - Build quality was solid, hubs seem great. Happy bunnies.

benpinnick

supersonic wrote:

What I am seeing is you pay £80 more, get the Trizoid rear hub, CX Rays, reduce weight by 130g and pay £80 more. If you use the Crests. Seems good to me! So is not just the hub you are upgrading, but spokes.

Yep, that's right. That's good value indeed.

SuperstarComponents.com

benpinnick wrote:

stubs wrote:

benpinnick wrote:

Lol. I have a fine job thanks. I bought these yesterday (hope Pro II evos, crests and Rev spokes) to build for my pub hack, so thanks for the advice, but 'tarting' up my main bike with a Trizoid seems unlikely. Nothing wrong with them I'm sure, just unlikely none the less.

Yet your quite happy to be all sniffy about someone elses choice of wheels and then go and buy a top set of wheels for a pub hack :?

As a pub bike is a bike that is already pre stolen just waiting for the day when the guy with bolt cutters gets round to it, seems a big waste of a good set of wheels. Anyone who is desperate enough to nick my pub bike is welcome to it cost me £15 from the local charity shop.

Lol. Only one of us said the other needed a better job. One mans cheap is another man's expensive I guess. Still can't see why the Trizoid is so much more than the Switch though. Its hard to compare, so using the Supperleggera as the benchmark:

As far as I know:

1) They are both Joy Industry hubs
2) They are the same weight or near enough
3) they have the same bearings
4) the cheaper one is rated for DH, whereas the expensive one isnt.....
5) One has 120 points on the ratchet - Its not like Superstar had to invent the 120 pick up or anything Halo superdrives have had them for ages too.

Add in the extra £100 to go Switch to trizoid into the mix and:

1) its now heavier
2) its now £100 more.
3) you're back to being rated to DH again.

It still makes no sense.

Hello i thought i would make this post factually correct so people understand the real differences in the range:

1) The Trizoid hubs are not made by joytech.
2) Correct, but the Trizoid is not trying to be lighter.
3) Bearings in the Trizoid are EZO Japanese ones, so are of higher quality.
4) If you buy the DH Trizoid then its fine for DH Use.
5) Halo Superdrive is the Superlegera hub model, and we were selling it six months before they launched it.

Its a choice for you to make, but until you try the 120 engagement hub you really do not know what you are mising. They are more expensive because:
- The bearings are more expensive
- The hubshell uses a better forging technology
- They are a low volume product
- The internals are EDM machined at great expense

Now this may be of interest we have a new hub coming in 3 months which will sit in the middle:
- SKF bearings
- 60 POE
- Hydraulic type seals
- Subtle graphics
- Not much more than switch in cost. (£30 a pair roughly)

Regards, Neil (superstar)

benpinnick

Neil, thanks for the clarification - have you considered that maybe your website should say the same? At the moment its pretty hard to figure what is different from one to the other, as it looks like a big cut-n-paste job to me

The 60 POE hub - is that still a 3 pawl hub?