Voeckler
Comments
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If you actually watched cycling you would have noticed the Acqua & Sapone missed out on the Giro despite having the reigning KOM and Betancur. Even when Cofidis had one of the worst Tours in living memory (not a single rider in the top 10 on any stage, no rider in the top 50) the red carpet was rolled out the next year. And they were never banned for drugs scandals like Astana. Bernard Hinault has been saying exactly what I did for several years. I suppose he's a francophobe too.BikingBernie wrote:
An excellent piece of Francophobic generalisation. Well done!RichN95 wrote:Mostly, French riders just attack to get on the television, they're not trying to win, just to be a local celebrity. Unlike the others French teams don't have to bother with getting results as they're promised a Tour place regardless of how incompetent they are. Just get on TV and beat on about panache. This is why proper racers like Chavanel leave France.
I wonder, do you think that the 'wildcard' system has the same effect on 'Wops' and 'Dagos' when they ride their home tours. :roll:
PS I suggest you wind you neck in a retract your moronic statements.Twitter: @RichN950 -
BikingBernie wrote:
One reason is probably the fact that many pros want the racing to be as easy as is possible, as frequently as is possible, especially when they find it hard to stay in contention, and so they don't appreciate riders like Voeckler attacking almost for the sake of it. There is a telling interview with Cavendish on YouTube where he is whining about how hard racing can be, referring to 'some French guy attacking even when they don't know why they are attacking'. I guess some would prefer to ride a 'race' where no one attacks and instead everyone ride along getting a healthy glow before having a bunch sprint at the end.RichN95 wrote:According to Cycle Sport, his nickname in the English speaking part of the peloton is Fuckler. The other riders really don't like him for some reason.
It's amazing how people find ways to take a dig at Cavendish even though there's not really any basis for it at all.0 -
Not a fan of 'TV Tommy' / 'Hollywood' for the reasons on this thread, but on balance he probably is good for the racing. No major qualms from me - he can keep on doing what he's doing and we can enjoy ripping the p*ss
As an aside, he did seem to be getting pally pally with Wiggins in the Dauphine. Granted, Wiggins was in yellow which might explain why Voeckler could always be seen by his side but I think he might also be on a pre-Tour charm offensive. Sky are definitely the team to keep on your side if you're going for stage wins. 0 -
derbygrimpeur wrote:BikingBernie wrote:
One reason is probably the fact that many pros want the racing to be as easy as is possible, as frequently as is possible, especially when they find it hard to stay in contention, and so they don't appreciate riders like Voeckler attacking almost for the sake of it. There is a telling interview with Cavendish on YouTube where he is whining about how hard racing can be, referring to 'some French guy attacking even when they don't know why they are attacking'. I guess some would prefer to ride a 'race' where no one attacks and instead everyone ride along getting a healthy glow before having a bunch sprint at the end.RichN95 wrote:According to Cycle Sport, his nickname in the English speaking part of the peloton is Fuckler. The other riders really don't like him for some reason.
It's amazing how Bernie finds ways to take a dig at Cavendish even though there's not really any basis for it at all.
FTFY You live and learn. At any rate, you live0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
Ah, I see. So xenophobic generalisations are only xenophobic generalisations if you also use derogatory terms for the nations involved. Thanks for clearing that up!Pross wrote:It certainly applies to Italian riders in the Giro (surely using 'Wops' and 'Dagos' would only be appropriate had Rich called the French riders 'Frogs' or similar?).
Nope, it's just your use of the terms implied that Rich had used similar derogatory terms in his original observation.0 -
I'm not a fan of TV either, he always reminds me of Little Richard staggering across the stage and needing to be assisted to the wings for the benefit of the audience. However, he plugs himself well in a race and if I was Europcar I would be pleased of the exposure that he has given them especially in last years TdF.
I believe he was criticised for riding off when Hoogerland got "great escaped" by the French TV car last year. I know this particular subject could merit its own thread but we forget sometimes it is a race. If we constantly hung around in moments where our competitors were in strife then Cav would have the yellow jersey as well as the green one.
In conclusion I'm not a great fan of his but there is a bit of attacking flair from old TV.0 -
I think it's funny how people who hate Armstrong have love for TV. And if it wasn't for JB and LA, little Tommy wouldn't have got his moment in the sun in 2004 which made him a household name.
So he's basically a product of USPSFckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
1) It seems quite possible that some rider's don't like Voeckler because his attacking style makes racers harder than they might otherwise be. (Nothing new here of course, Even Paul Kimmage in Rough Ride talks about 'bastard' riders who would attack on a long mountain stage when everyone else was happy to take it easy for a while.)derbygrimpeur wrote:It's amazing how people find ways to take a dig at Cavendish even though there's not really any basis for it at all.
2) I saw an interview with Cavendish (who probably hates anyone who goes hard over anything bigger than a railway bridge) in which he makes some negative comments about French riders doing exactly what Voeckler does.
Given the above the reference to the Cavendish interview seems perfectly relevant to me!0 -
Nope, I used those terms in order to highlight just how narrow-minded and xenophobic the original post was...Pross wrote:
Nope, it's just your use of the terms implied that Rich had used similar derogatory terms in his original observation.BikingBernie wrote:
Ah, I see. So xenophobic generalisations are only xenophobic generalisations if you also use derogatory terms for the nations involved. Thanks for clearing that up!Pross wrote:It certainly applies to Italian riders in the Giro (surely using 'Wops' and 'Dagos' would only be appropriate had Rich called the French riders 'Frogs' or similar?).0 -
Not everyone gets so serious about TV – when Boonen heard what Voeckler said in the interview (see second post), he said he laughed a lot.0
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TV Tommy? Yeah but, but, but...Rolland said today:He's a smart guy, you can tell by the way he races. He never attacks for nothing Ok then Piere...
EDIT: Just realised Frenchie already quoted this. Note to self - read whole thread. :oops:0 -
They were neither narrow minded or xenophobic. I'm not alone in my view of French cycling.BikingBernie wrote:
Nope, I used those terms in order to highlight just how narrow-minded and xenophobic the original post was...Pross wrote:
Nope, it's just your use of the terms implied that Rich had used similar derogatory terms in his original observation.BikingBernie wrote:
Ah, I see. So xenophobic generalisations are only xenophobic generalisations if you also use derogatory terms for the nations involved. Thanks for clearing that up!Pross wrote:It certainly applies to Italian riders in the Giro (surely using 'Wops' and 'Dagos' would only be appropriate had Rich called the French riders 'Frogs' or similar?).
Winning is the only thing that matters in cycling. The problem today is that the French riders are happy to simply ride well, to show off their jersey in a race.
It's easier for French riders to say the others are doping than to go off and train.
Lower their salaries and place the sword of Damocles over their heads.
Those last three lines aren't mine, though they sound like what I was saying. They were actually said to Bicycling Magazine in 2008 by Bernard Hinault. Is he a French hating xenophobe as well?Twitter: @RichN950 -
BikingBernie wrote:
Nope, I used those terms in order to highlight just how narrow-minded and xenophobic the original post was...Pross wrote:
Nope, it's just your use of the terms implied that Rich had used similar derogatory terms in his original observation.BikingBernie wrote:
Ah, I see. So xenophobic generalisations are only xenophobic generalisations if you also use derogatory terms for the nations involved. Thanks for clearing that up!Pross wrote:It certainly applies to Italian riders in the Giro (surely using 'Wops' and 'Dagos' would only be appropriate had Rich called the French riders 'Frogs' or similar?).
Do you really think it was xenophobic though or were you just out to start an argument? There is probably a lot of truth that French riders in televised French races attack for TV exposure but the same can be said for home riders in any race but especially those that don't get so much exposure and are in as wildcards as I assume you were alluding to yourself. The Tour being the biggest race of all means that it is the French wildcard teams that really make the most of their chance in the spotlight. The big races pretty much all originated as marketing events after all.
I think though as others have said before TV now knows how to attack to win but that doesn't stop him attacking just for the publicity when he knows he is unlikely to win a particular race.0 -
frenchfighter wrote:"He's a smart guy, you can tell by the way he races. He never attacks for nothing," Rolland continued.
Worst thread-bump ever.0 -
Lol, I was beginning to wonder myself.Contador is the Greatest0
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BikingBernie wrote:
1) It seems quite possible that some rider's don't like Voeckler because his attacking style makes racers harder than they might otherwise be. (Nothing new here of course, Even Paul Kimmage in Rough Ride talks about 'bastard' riders who would attack on a long mountain stage when everyone else was happy to take it easy for a while.)derbygrimpeur wrote:It's amazing how people find ways to take a dig at Cavendish even though there's not really any basis for it at all.
2) I saw an interview with Cavendish (who probably hates anyone who goes hard over anything bigger than a railway bridge) in which he makes some negative comments about French riders doing exactly what Voeckler does.
Given the above the reference to the Cavendish interview seems perfectly relevant to me!
my point was that this is a thread about Voeckler, yet you managed to find some way to have a dig about Cavendish. It's not ONLY Cavendish that might have a problem with TV. I am aware of the quote you mention, but think you've misinterpreted it and drawn a squiggly line to TV because no straight line exists. Concentrate on the topic in hand (TV) rather than trying to have sly digs at other riders.0 -
As someone living in France and a sometime follower of the French cycling press I can assure you that there are many column inches devoted to significantly more damning assessments of the state of French cycling by French commentators than as expressed by Rich. And that is nothing to what some of the guys in my local club say in the bar after a ride. Frankly, your tendency to assign motives of jingoism or xenophobia to anyone who expresses an opinion with which you disagree is, apart from being insulting, lazy, predictable and tedious.BikingBernie wrote:
An excellent piece of Francophobic generalisation. Well done!RichN95 wrote:Mostly, French riders just attack to get on the television, they're not trying to win, just to be a local celebrity. Unlike the others French teams don't have to bother with getting results as they're promised a Tour place regardless of how incompetent they are. Just get on TV and beat on about panache. This is why proper racers like Chavanel leave France.
I wonder, do you think that the 'wildcard' system has the same effect on 'Wops' and 'Dagos' when they ride their home tours. :roll:0 -
To be honest, I thought that it was the original poster who was trying to do that.Pross wrote:Do you really think it was xenophobic though or were you just out to start an argument?
Agreed. Buy saying that 'the same can be said for home riders in any race' is rather different to suggesting that this is a particularly 'French' phenomenon. Lets look again at what RichN95 wrote:Pross wrote:There is probably a lot of truth that French riders in televised French races attack for TV exposure but the same can be said for home riders in any race...
A rather crass generalisation, no? 'TV Tommy' might be prone to this, but he also produces some good performances and I would think that the majority of riders in France, as anywhere, actually to race to win, if there is any chance of them doing so, or help a team-mate do so if that is their job. Doubtless 'getting on TV' is also a factor, especially for riders who know they have little chance of winning, and after all these are professionals whose sponsors expect some return. However this is not something that is peculiar to 'French riders', as RichN95 tried to imply.RichN95 wrote:Mostly, French riders just attack to get on the television, they're not trying to win,
Is this really true? Not all French teams get into the Tour via a 'wildcard' entry and for those that do there is usually a lot of effort made to justify their selection, mainly be reference to their previous performances. OK, so recently the ASO might be trying to give French cycling a 'leg up' by giving some preference to home teams, but again this is hardly a 'French' phenomenon. If anything it is even more pronounced in races like the Giro.RichN95 wrote:Unlike the others French teams don't have to bother with getting results as they're promised a Tour place regardless of how incompetent they are.
So, according to RichN95, all professional riders who are based in France aren't even 'proper racers', whatever that means. Another crass generalisation or what?RichN95 wrote:...proper racers like Chavanel leave France.0 -
To accuse someone of making a crass generalisation is not the same as to accuse someone of xenophobia. In fact, a crass generalisation can be useful when trying to deal with the root causes of a problem rather than getting bogged down in the minutiae.BikingBernie wrote:Another crass generalisation or what?
Xenophobia is never useful.0 -
Fair comment, but I was probably misled by the fact that most of RichN95's crass generalisations seem to be about the French!DeadCalm wrote:To accuse someone of making a crass generalisation is not the same as to accuse someone of xenophobia. In fact, a crass generalisation can be useful when trying to deal with the root causes of a problem rather than getting bogged down in the minutiae. Xenophobia is never useful. 0 -
It was about the French as it was a response comments about the peloton not liking daft attacks from French riders. I explained that, unlike the other teams they are guaranteed a golden ticket to the Tour regardless of results. (None of the five teams have every been excluded since debut - the Giro have excluded decent Italian teams including A&S this year). I pointed to quotes of Bernard Hinault saying exactly the same thing.BikingBernie wrote:
Fair comment, but I was probably misled by the fact that most of RichN95's crass generalisations seem to be about the French!DeadCalm wrote:To accuse someone of making a crass generalisation is not the same as to accuse someone of xenophobia. In fact, a crass generalisation can be useful when trying to deal with the root causes of a problem rather than getting bogged down in the minutiae. Xenophobia is never useful.
The fact that all you had in response was libelous personal attacks suggests Bernard and I are correct.Twitter: @RichN950 -
I personally would have Europcar in every race, they provide plenty of entertainment and always try to get in a break and make a go of the race. I cant think of a time they have not looked for a win, or just been happy to sit in the peloton and cross the line in a bunch.RichN95 wrote:
If you actually watched cycling you would have noticed the Acqua & Sapone missed out on the Giro despite having the reigning KOM and Betancur. Even when Cofidis had one of the worst Tours in living memory (not a single rider in the top 10 on any stage, no rider in the top 50) the red carpet was rolled out the next year. And they were never banned for drugs scandals like Astana. Bernard Hinault has been saying exactly what I did for several years. I suppose he's a francophobe too.BikingBernie wrote:
An excellent piece of Francophobic generalisation. Well done!RichN95 wrote:Mostly, French riders just attack to get on the television, they're not trying to win, just to be a local celebrity. Unlike the others French teams don't have to bother with getting results as they're promised a Tour place regardless of how incompetent they are. Just get on TV and beat on about panache. This is why proper racers like Chavanel leave France.
I wonder, do you think that the 'wildcard' system has the same effect on 'Wops' and 'Dagos' when they ride their home tours. :roll:
PS I suggest you wind you neck in a retract your moronic statements.
I love watching people try to win, not go for a ride to the cake shop. Europcar tend to try to win, or appear to.
If they are successful in getting their sponsor on tv then good for them, in the future if there are no sponsors on jerseys then it may be a different matter, but while they get paid by sponsors then good luck to them.
Other cyclists should remember that by driving up their sponsorship dollars they are also strengthening the dollars availiable for other teams and cyclists as other sponsors want to compete with them.
I once read that Europcars contract has a clause that if TV leaves then they can break their contract, does this happen with any other cyclist?0 -
I like Voeckler and Europcar too - I also like Boonen - no idea if I'd like them if I met them or if I'd like they way they ride if I were in the pro peloton - but as a cycling fan I think they make racing more entertaining.
Going back to last year I thought some of the criticism of Tommy V for being naive was misplaced - sure with hindsight he could probably have got on the podium if he'd been more conservative at certain times - but if he'd been that kind of conservative rider he'd probably not have been in the position to get on the podium in the first place - and as the saying goes if you want to win a race you have to be prepared to lose it.
And if he upsets a few other riders with his tactics who cares - in sport not everyone has to get on.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Isn't the "gentleman of the peloton" just rose-tinted nostalgia? So he attacks at times that are inconvenient for the others. Boo-hoo. Whilst I understand that there is no point in making enemies in the peloton, some of these guys just need to get over Voeckler's approach. And remember, it's not always the nice guys who win.Ecrasez l’infame0
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What is TV up to in this Tour? I assume he's got a breakaway win planned but he has been shockingly bad thus far - or have I missed something? - as demonstrated by his attempt to get away on Stage 8. He seemed in good form in the past few months which makes his performance so far a bit bewildering.
[Please note: I only ask because I was stupid enough to put him in my Velogames squad and he has teh grand total of 0 points!]0
