A can of Five Orange worms

The Rookie

Toasty wrote:

The Beginner wrote:

What like all the Shimano and fox etc stuff? The fact the aluminium is imported?

The 'britishness' is probably 50% of the cost but only 25% of the value (compared to a taiwanese assembled bike of similar spec), buying british is good if it gives the same value as you can import, otherwise your propping up and uncompetative industry that has no incentive to improve, just we did in the 70's when it nearly ruined us.

Simon

50% of the cost for being British? We're back to moaning about them being overpriced again. Which Taiwanese bike are we using for reference now?

Yawn.

Can't you read? Yaawwwnnn..... anyone you damn well like to a similar spec, yes you have to use a little imagination, maybe we were expecting too much of you.

Simon

toasty

The Beginner wrote:

Can't you read? Yaawwwnnn..... anyone you damn well like to a similar spec, yes you have to use a little imagination, maybe we were expecting too much of you.

Simon

Maybe. Still no example of a similar specced bike, which is sold from UK shops, for less money?

My imagination shot to Giant/Spesh/Trek/Cannondale etc, none of which offer notiacbly better value. The 5 S is obviously the worst value of the range, with Sektors. If you can beat something like the Black Gold spec I'd be surprised though.

Just another completely unsubstantiated random complaint, with no basis for comparison, like the entire first few pages. Hence the yawn.

benpinnick

BIt of a cheat using black gold - everyone knows thats a special edition which is pound for pound a lot better specced than other fives.

toasty

benpinnick wrote:

BIt of a cheat using black gold - everyone knows thats a special edition which is pound for pound a lot better specced than other fives.

Not quite sure how you figure that, any Orange dealer could get them in. It's not fair using one that's good value, pick a bad value bike to aid my argument.

Use the Pro then. Find me a bike with Fox Performance FIT forks, top end brakes, a decent frame and a £250 wheelset?

benpinnick

Toasty wrote:

benpinnick wrote:

BIt of a cheat using black gold - everyone knows thats a special edition which is pound for pound a lot better specced than other fives.

Not quite sure how you figure that, any Orange dealer could get them in. It's not fair using one that's good value, pick a bad value bike to aid my argument.

Use the Pro then. Find me a bike with Fox Performance FIT forks, a decent frame and a £250 wheelset?

From the Fruity site itself:

'The Black Gold is our new Limited Edition build model, designed to cover the essentials straight out of the box. Factory level suspension offers the very best in performance, the Kashima coated RP23 and FIT RLC topping the Fox range. The stiff front end is matched to a Maxle swingarm, stepping up the stiffness and adding to its hard-riding credentials - the ultimate chassis. Avid brakes, RaceFace cranks and a 10-speed transmission keeps everything pro. We’ve been asked for it, we’ve come up with the goods.

Offered in one colour and looking resplendent in Jet Black, the 100 bikes keep it simple for maximum value for money. A RockShox Reverb as the only additional option, the Five Black Gold is our interpretation of the perfect build. Want something different or more choice? Head back to the Pro, this one’s all about ‘the package’…"

toasty

100 bikes is a fairly hefty amount for a small UK company, check out the On-One stock, they seem to get about 10 of each size in with most models.

I'm still not sure why that's not fair to compare with, or why you've still been unable to back up your own moan? A moan which was so simple it required no imagination.

benpinnick

OK, first thing I type in: Trek Fuel EX9:

Frame: Alpha Platinum Aluminium w/ABP Convert, Full Floater, E2 tapered head tube, internal front derailleur cable routing, magnesium EVO Link, replaceable derailleur hanger, 120mm travel
Rear Shock: Fox Performance Series Float RP-3 w/DRCV, Boost Valve, 3-position Climb-Ride-Descend ProPedal, rebound; 7.25x2.0", tuned by Trek in California
Fork: Fox 32 Float FIT RLC, Trek DRCV air spring, Kashima coat, compression, lockout, rebound, E2 tapered steerer, 15QR thru axle, 120mm travel, tuned by Trek in California
Front Derailleur: Shimano Deore XT
Rear Derailleur: Shimano XTR M980 Shadow
Number of Gears: 30
Shifters: Shimano Deore XT M780, 10 speed
Chainset: Shimano Deore XT M780, 42/32/24
Bottom Bracket: Shimano press fit
Cassette: Shimano Deore XT M771-10 11-36, 10 speed
Front Brake: Shimano Deore XT M785 hydraulic disc brakes
Rear Brake: Shimano Deore XT M785 hydraulic disc brakes
Brake Levers: Shimano Deore XT M785 hydraulic disc brakes
Handlebars: Bontrager Race Lite Low Riser, 31.8mm, 15mm rise, 9 degree sweep
Stem: Bontrager Race Lite, 31.8mm
Headset: FSA NO.57E, E2, ACB sealed bearings
Grips: Bontrager Race Lite, single lock-on
Rims: Bontrager Rhythm Elite TLR Disc wheel system, 15mm front hub, 142x12mm rear hub, 28 hole, Tubeless Ready
Front Hub: 15mm front hub
Rear Hub: 142x12mm rear hub
Front Tyre: Bontrager XR4 Team, 26x2.2"
Rear Tyre: Bontrager XR4 Team, 26x2.2"
Saddle: Bontrager Evoke 2, Chromoly rails
Seatpost: Bontrager Rhythm Elite, 31.6mm, zero offset
Extra Features: Trek fork & shock sag meter, Bontrager shock pump

I know what I think is better value.

toasty

Meh, 120mm, upright trail bike, compared to a slack AM bike. Try and compare with the Remedy then :P

If I wanted a Five with that exact spec, for that money, I'd just buy:

http://www.sunsetmtb.co.uk/shop/index.p ... ory_id=143

and a £350 XT groupset. I'd actually be better off too, if you like you can put the spare money into a Kashima RP23. People will moan that I hadn't picked a more expensive Five model to compare to, but to be honest, the fact you can custom spec them is one of the bonuses of buying a UK brand.

tom_howard

mrmonkfinger wrote:

Orange. British bikes made by Brits in the middle of Britain, with British bits made by some other Brits down the road in slightly different part of Britain. So they're EXTREMELY British. Each bike comes with a certificate of Britishness personally signed by the Queen, and a free Beefeater.

Did I miss any important differences between them and the other bike manufacturers?

Mine was made in Taiwan, and the warranty stickers are in German.... really! ill post a pic tonight.

tom_howard

Toasty wrote:

to be honest, the fact you can custom spec them is one of the bonuses of buying a UK brand.

Because custom speccing is illegal in Jonny Foreigners world?

toasty

Yes, exactly.

The Rookie

Toasty wrote:

Use the Pro then. Find me a bike with Fox Performance FIT forks, top end brakes, a decent frame and a £250 wheelset?

http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/rose ... aid:550924

Fox fit - yes or as it's Kashima is that a no?
Top brakes (formula R1's) - yes
£250 wheelset, oh no sorry Cobalts RRP at £700 failed, too good for sure!
XO also trumps the Pro's SLX by a margin unless you as big a Shimano blinkered ophile as you are an Orange Blinkered ophile!

All for 2,699 Euro.....the Pro costs more in GBP.

Simon

toasty

Getting fairly obscure, a Cube Stereo would beat the Five as well by a decent margin. Do love how you're getting into obscure bikes to prove the point that the Five is 50% worse value than all other bikes though.

My point is just that it's not THAT bad, there's far worse value bikes about, at least you know where the money has gone when you're buying a hand made UK frame. It doesn't mean it's better, just a bit different.

Edit: Not to mention, do Rose actually have a distributor, or are they direct from the factory like Canyon? I can't find any UK stockists? :?

The Rookie

Toasty wrote:

Getting fairly obscure, a Cube Stereo would beat the Five as well by a decent margin. Do love how you're getting into obscure bikes to prove the point that the Five is 50% worse value than all other bikes though.

My point is just that it's not THAT bad, there's far worse value bikes about, at least you know where the money has gone when you're buying a hand made UK frame. It doesn't mean it's better, just a bit different.

Edit: Not to mention, do Rose actually have a distributor, or are they direct from the factory like Canyon? I can't find any UK stockists? :?

Rose are direct.....not really obscure seeing as how they outsell the 'obscure' orange by a HUGE margin.

Go on, show the far worst value (against the Pro again).......

Where has the money gone then, up against the wall of the Rose and Crown on a Saturday night mebbe? how does that help?

Simon

toasty

So basically you're saying, "Orange are terrible value, if I import a bike direct from a german or french factory I can get better spec."

Well done there. In which case Trek/Specialized/Cannondale/Giant are terrible value too! Lets not even get started on equivalent boutique American brands. Why everyone targets a friendly little UK company with bugger all buying power to moan about value I really don't know. Specialized could hammer out bikes for about 25% less than they do if they wanted, they just seem quite keen on money.

Obscure Orange? My LBS sells Orange, so does the next one along. I don't think I've ever seen a Rose bike, I've read a 2.5/5.0 review of one, that's about as far as I go.

Northwind

FWIW, Rose might seem obscure to some, but they're huge on the continent.

mrmonkfinger wrote:

Orange. British bikes made by Brits in the middle of Britain

Most Oranges are made by foreigners in the middle of abroad.

toasty

Everything is relative. David Hasslehoff being in the charts seems pretty obscure to me, doesn't mean it is everywhere.

DodgeT

Rose bikes look quite nice too.

chez_m356

Toasty wrote:

Specialized could hammer out bikes for about 25% less than they do if they wanted, they just seem quite keen on money

a bit like orange then

benpinnick

Having done some brief research into current bike prices, the Five does actually seem a lot better value this year, given how much everything else has gone up. When I considered buying one in 2009, the Orange was waayyyyy overpriced, for £350 more than the orange frame I got an almost full XT, Fox forked, carbon barred, reasonable other kit FSR. no comparison. Now the same level of FSR is more than the full Orange. How times have changed. Having test ridden one I think the frame is still overpriced, but the full builds are looking better value this year.

toasty

chez_m356 wrote:

Toasty wrote:

Specialized could hammer out bikes for about 25% less than they do if they wanted, they just seem quite keen on money

a bit like orange then

Not sure you're understanding this economy thing. It's ok, I'll help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale

chez_m356

Toasty wrote:

chez_m356 wrote:

Toasty wrote:

Specialized could hammer out bikes for about 25% less than they do if they wanted, they just seem quite keen on money

a bit like orange then

Not sure you're understanding this economy thing. It's ok, I'll help.

it seems to me that your the one who needs help, maybe if you put the energy your wasting to defending orange, in to something useful like making money, you could actually buy one, then you'd be a proper fanboi instead of a fanboi wannabe, i suppose all this is just a substitute for the commencal, you cant argue about, because its a fact its crap

bails87

Oh dear.....

Somebody call surfmatt to settle this once and for all

toasty

chez_m356 wrote:

it seems to me that your the one who needs help, maybe if you put the energy your wasting to defending orange, in to something useful like making money, you could actually buy one, then you'd be a proper fanboi instead of a fanboi wannabe, i suppose all this is just a substitute for the commencal, you cant argue about, because its a fact its crap

The Commencal is ace, in the 3 years I've owned it I've also owned a Pitch Pro and Ibis Mojo, both got sold pretty quick as they weren't as much fun as the Meta. Must have demo'd a good 10 or so bikes in that time too, including some more over the next few weeks. Of course I could afford an Orange, I'm not the one buying "value" bikes you've never seen before from a warehouse in France.

mrmonkfinger

benpinnick wrote:

the Five does actually seem a lot better value this year, given how much everything else has gone up.

Maybe the big boys were able to use their buying power to secure price deals on componentry and material costs a year or two ahead of time, and use that to keep the retail prices a bit lower for a while. Small outfits certainly won't have that option.

Northwind wrote:

Most Oranges are made by foreigners in the middle of abroad

Are we talking citrus or bikes?

styxd

Orange Fives are a simple bike for simple folk who simply cant ride for toffee. They serve this purpose well, if you dont fit into this category then buy something else. No ones forcing you to buy one!

tarbot18

After perusing this thread for sometime , during worktime i might add ! Have to say i dont really give a shit who rides what bike.
In the group i go mtb ing with there are grand bikes such as mine , 500 quid tired hardtails and 3 grand superduperdropperpostwheeliethings, no one really cares what you ride as long as you keep up dont hold everyone up and it doesnt break all the time .
Anyone making snobby bike comments whether one of the group or a strangerer is basically told to go mate with themselves and to get a life.

Having said that i do like to see an english company producing something here as i am a patriot when it suits me and if i had 2.5k going spare (never ever happen small kids etc etc) i would consider taking one for a spin around llandegla from the bike shop there so there...........

Northwind

mrmonkfinger wrote:

Are we talking citrus or bikes?

Well, I was talking about the fruit but coincidentally it's also true of the bikes.

bennett_346

Wow, sounds like you guys have issues!

Torres

The one thing everyone seems to be forgetting, is bike fit and how the rider gets on with the bike.

I completely agree that canyons/rose/etc. are stonking value; but if I don't "get on with it" then its very poor value.
Likewise; the Orange actually sits in the middle-ground now, if it fits, it's a winner, if not I wouldn't be interested.

Honestly, if you're dropping that kind of money on a push-iron it needs to fit you like a glove and you need to have a good "connection" with the bike; spec becomes irrelivant if the suspension characteristics don't suit your riding style, or the geometry's a little too long/steep/low for your liking.