A can of Five Orange worms

Stu Coops

Personally I don't see anything special in them far better bikes out there for the same money in my opinion, my mate had a Five Pro and it was heavy and didn't ride that well either just a pretty average bike, he has now sold that a bought a Giant Trance X1 after riding mine and thinks it is miles above his Five.

Not sure where this snobbery comes from though with comments like "yeh but I have an Orange 5" as most people I know spend around £3000 on a bike but just don't want them so if this mindset does exist which I have never witnessed to be honest then they seriously need a reality check.

ilovedirt

I do find it amazing how people can categorically state that one bike is "better" or "worse" than another. Regardless of suspension action (which on the five works pretty well IMO), the geometry of a frame is very important, and also is a very subjective/personal thing. Yes, some people may preach about them a little too much, but by the same token, some people hate on them a bit too much. If someone wants to buy one because they like them, let them!

Stu Coops

ilovedirt wrote:

I do find it amazing how people can categorically state that one bike is "better" or "worse" than another. Regardless of suspension action (which on the five works pretty well IMO), the geometry of a frame is very important, and also is a very subjective/personal thing. Yes, some people may preach about them a little too much, but by the same token, some people hate on them a bit too much. If someone wants to buy one because they like them, let them!

Common sense approach at last

The Northern Monkey

for me its just because its a lazy bike... they've not changed much in x many years they've been going.

Take the spesh enduro frinstance. Thats changed completely since it 1st came out. Its always been up at the top and its always been a looker.

You can hardly tell the difference between old 5's and new 5's. And its not just that.. take a look at the 224, patriot, alpine and 5. They're all the same bloody bike!

Then there is the spec. Lets look at the Patriot off the shelf for £3000.
Some very very odd options.
Hope pro2 wheels with bottom of the range cassette which will lead to a smashed up freehub body.
Highest spec rear mech, but sh!t brakes.
Low spec rear shock.
Low spec crankset

There are just better options out there, Orange bikes miss the mark by a long way... who gives a toss if it was hand built by a hippie in his shed?
I want good spec at good value, not sh!t spec and extortionate prices!

The only reason there is a hippieish following is because its the only way Orange owners can justify the fact that they have been royally bent over and shafted.

I'm sure the Orange 5 rides great and does everything you could want it to do, but in a nutshell its an old looking, underspecc'd and overpriced bike thats built in a shed.

*Discliamer* I've owned an Orange. It was nice. But far too expensive for what it was. So I sold it.

I have the same sort of gripe with Fox forks

supersonic

Single pivots like this are not the best suspension designs, especially in longer travel formats. There is no control over the leverage ratios, no control over pedal kickback (ie changing virtual pivot) and they suffer from brake jack as the instant centre is in the same place as the pivot. But they still exist - why? Simplicity. Some people don't mind these traits for the trade off of a simple design ie two halves joined with one pivot and a shock. No need for complicated frames with bits in strange places, or perfectly aligned stays, or linkages and loads of pivots that add weight.

But the 5 completely ruins this with a convoluted and totally uneccesary frame design. By insisting bits are hand welded in the UK, they have to use heavier sections with masses of welds to achieve the desired result ie an inferior, heavier, flexier, weaker and more expensive solution. Why not use some nice hydroformed parts shipped in from Taiwan? But the market very much thrives on this 'Made in England' thing, doing it the easy way would lose sales.

Put simply they cost far too much for what they actually are, hand made or not. The Santa Cruz Heckler is a lesson on how it should be done (for a boutique 'brand'), some simple curved tubing, half a pound less weight than the 5 and £300 cheaper. (frame only)

When it comes to geo, it is a personal thing, there is no such thing as 'good' geo: however there are set ups that more people seem to prefer. I had a single pivot 140mm Saracen DTox - it rode better than the 5 IMO, yet the whole BIKE was put together for £400! Yet it weighed hardly any more than the entry level 5 S.

Neverthess I see why people like them. If you have tested, liked it and bought it, no problems. Just don't bang on about it, trying to tell others why they are so good ;-)

Nick Cod

Now I've never had an Orange five or any of their other bikes so I'm not going to cast judgement until I have taken one out for a spin. However I would say that just because there are two differing opinions doesn't mean either are wrong, sometimes you can find a bike and it feels right and it can tick all the boxes you want.

My younger brother borrowed my GT for a weekend in Afan, he hated it and said it's about time you got rid of that old thing. I couldn't'disagree more, it's one if the best hardtails I've had and still puts a smile on my face when I'm out on the trails.

So if you find something that works for you stick with it despite what others may say or think, it doesn't mean their right, it's their opinion.

I can't comment on the snobbery of Orange owners I've never suffered any. But there's a whole load of decent bikes out there you've just got to find what works for you.

The world would be boring if we all liked the same thing 8)

rockmonkeysc

Other than the price, looks & the aweful Orange rattle Fives are ok but no better than a Stumpjumper, Trance, Remedy Blur or any other trail bike. For me it's just not worth the extra cash over a Trance (thats why I bought a Trance)
I went to an Orange demo day a while ago and rode every full sus bike (except the Diva) and the P7. I was expecting the Five to be far better than it was but what I was surprised by was that the Blood was amazing and made the Five & Alpine 160 feel crude. The 224 was nice but they have a nasty habit of cracking at the shock mount.
The only Orange I would buy is the Blood & I don't know how I managed to forget about it when I bought my Reign X.

ilovedirt

And they've gone and discontinued the blood, lol. Shame, I would have quite liked one.

Rushmore

You see em all the time around cannock...

I don't dislike them.... But I'd personally rather own something else, they just look big and clunky.

Although I wouldn't say no to one as I only have a hardtail.. BUT thats because i'm a man's man....

supersonic

The rise of the Far East (and some Euro firms) are leading the way with design, manufacture and pricing. Canyon, Rose and YT are all knocking out highly regarded bikes at amazing prices, and the influx of cheap carbon and finishing kit from China and Taiwan means that quality can be had by all.

UK manufacture lags behind nowadays.

rockmonkeysc

It's not just in bike manufacturing that the UK is a long way behind. UK manufacturing is dying, poor quality and too expensive. UK design is up there with the rest of the world, shame we can't make stuff as well as we can design it.

supersonic

Yep, the world is moving on fast. I see it with a lot of products: when they first came out they were innovative ie Hope stems and in the US, Thomson stems and seatposts. CNCing them meant no welds or bonds, and were a genuine improvement on what was available at the time. But now forged stuff has taken that further ie cheaper, stronger and lighter parts. Some frames seem to echo this ie are pushing old tech as far as it can go.

stubs

I am sure Orange would love to be able to forge and hydroform but thats expensive machinery which I very much doubt they could afford. The bank certainly isnt going to lend them the money a friend works for an engineering company and he says its just not fair what the eastern companies can do nowadays. Its so much cheaper to send a file to a foundry in the east and have it flown over rather than spend the millions to get the kit installed in the old poky factory he works in.

Its not even the wages now a well trained qualified engineer in Taiwan or S Korea earns as much as he does, its just that the governments and the banks in the east work together to grow the economy in this country the government and the banks work together in favour of rich bastards in London working in glass towers.

Orange unfortunately are stuck in there niche I wish them well but they wont be able to sell the same old frame forever and I dont know how they could do any different. Within 10 years engineering and manufacturing (apart from assembly of shipped in parts) will be dead in Britain except for bearded guys in sheds and when that happens we really are fooked. Cant run a country without making money and moving numbers on a computer screen doesnt make real money it just moves the same debt about.

I used to get my hands dirty banging bits of oily metal with spanners, hammers and power tools now I sit in front of a spreadsheet getting paper cuts from print outs so I suppose my work history is a potted history of British industry I used to create money now I just move it about.

Northwind

RockmonkeySC wrote:

UK manufacturing is dying

In 2010, UK manufacturing by value was at a record high, and it's grown almost every year for the last 50. We're the 7th biggest manufacturer in the world despite being the 22nd biggest country by population. Not dying, nor about to.

Anonymous

Isn't there a massive gap though between the "biggest"? China surely outstrips the rest of the world massively.

rockmonkeysc

Very little is manufactured in the UK. Plenty is assembled & packaged in the UK, like bikes where the components are made all over the world and bolted together in the UK.
I work as a mechanical design engineer, very few of the components or machines I specify are manufactured. It's hard to get good quality & reasonable cost from UK manufacturers. I can get machines built to a much higher standard, quicker & cheaper in Germany than I can get them in this country.
China is by far the biggest manufacturer, India, Japan, USA, Canada, France Italy & Germany are a long way ahead of the UK.
The biggest problem I have seen in UK manufacturing is the amount of office staff & managers in factories is at least double what it would be in other countries I have been to.

Northwind

Actually China only became the biggest manufacturer last year, by a nose... America had been the biggest since 1895, when they took over from us. (we took over from China in about 1850 IIRC...) China isn't drastically bigger than the USA- though soon will be.

But yep, there are big falls from the top 2 down to Japan, then another big fall down to Germany, then the rest of the top 10 are pretty close together.

Rockmonkey, we aren't drastically outstripped by France (who only replaced us as 6th greatest producer in 2008) and we outproduce Canada.

stubs

Northwind wrote:

RockmonkeySC wrote:

UK manufacturing is dying

In 2010, UK manufacturing by value was at a record high, and it's grown almost every year for the last 50. We're the 7th biggest manufacturer in the world despite being the 22nd biggest country by population. Not dying, nor about to.

You missed out the bit where I said apart from assembly of bought in parts. That isnt manufacturing its basically repackaging. There is very little value sticking a few screws in putting it in a box and slapping on a made in UK sticker on, the profit is made further down the line.

ryan_w-2

Orange snobbery really isn't anything to go on about though. Not many people buy the expensive SE spec, and the Pros are only £3k. In MTB terms, that's not a lot really.

Some chebend on my last ride was bigging his 5 up (in some hideous green colour) and telling me it was "the best bike money can buy, but not many people get them cos they cost £3k".
I humbly nodded and said in the most ostentatious fashion I could, "Well I was thinking about a 5 but decided to buy a Mondraker Foxy RR to compliment my Whyte B19C Works and Specialized S-Works Stumpjumper..." He grumbled some BS and went on his way! Haha

On a side note. I really was considering a 5 Pro, demoed one and could believe how bad it pedalled! The Foxy RR I chose in the end if a far superior bike in every aspect! /canofworms

Northwind

I imagine you've got some evidence to support that? One that somehow proves our massive food, drink and medical industries only assemble things from imported parts? Yes there's generally an element of importing- very few machines anywhere are built from components sourced 100% from one country. But it's just incorrect to depict that as "repackaging", even if the bulk of an engine assembled in Dagenham was imported in individual parts (which, incidentally, it isn't) the assembly is still as important a step as the production of the subcomponents. It's just division of labour- a pile of parts isn't a machine, any more than a pile of raw aluminium is a billet or a sheet.

supersonic

How are these lists produced? By revenue? In China a forged stem costs a few quid, in the UK a Hope stem several times the amount. Same with food.

Hob Nob

The Northern Monkey wrote:

for me its just because its a lazy bike... they've not changed much in x many years they've been going.

Take the spesh enduro frinstance. Thats changed completely since it 1st came out. Its always been up at the top and its always been a looker.

You can hardly tell the difference between old 5's and new 5's. And its not just that.. take a look at the 224, patriot, alpine and 5. They're all the same bloody bike!

Then there is the spec. Lets look at the Patriot off the shelf for £3000.
Some very very odd options.
Hope pro2 wheels with bottom of the range cassette which will lead to a smashed up freehub body.
Highest spec rear mech, but sh!t brakes.
Low spec rear shock.
Low spec crankset

There are just better options out there, Orange bikes miss the mark by a long way... who gives a toss if it was hand built by a hippie in his shed?
I want good spec at good value, not sh!t spec and extortionate prices!

The only reason there is a hippieish following is because its the only way Orange owners can justify the fact that they have been royally bent over and shafted.

I'm sure the Orange 5 rides great and does everything you could want it to do, but in a nutshell its an old looking, underspecc'd and overpriced bike thats built in a shed.

*Discliamer* I've owned an Orange. It was nice. But far too expensive for what it was. So I sold it.

I have the same sort of gripe with Fox forks

Amazing. I don't even know where to start, and I don't even own any Orange.

benpinnick

Why don't you start by making a point?

Stu Coops

Northwind wrote:

I imagine you've got some evidence to support that? One that somehow proves our massive food, drink and medical industries only assemble things from imported parts? Yes there's generally an element of importing- very few machines anywhere are built from components sourced 100% from one country. But it's just incorrect to depict that as "repackaging", even if the bulk of an engine assembled in Dagenham was imported in individual parts (which, incidentally, it isn't) the assembly is still as important a step as the production of the subcomponents. It's just division of labour- a pile of parts isn't a machine, any more than a pile of raw aluminium is a billet or a sheet.

Were hardly a growth industry just take a look at our GDP depressing to say the least

The Northern Monkey

Hob Nob wrote:

The Northern Monkey wrote:

*snip*

Amazing. I don't even know where to start, and I don't even own any Orange.

Please feel free..

Hob Nob

for me its just because its a lazy bike... they've not changed much in x many years they've been going.

Ever thought maybe because it works well? What's the point in change just for the sake of it?

Take the spesh enduro frinstance. Thats changed completely since it 1st came out. Its always been up at the top and its always been a looker.

Aesthetics yes, but still using the FSR platform. Does that not make it rubbish too for not jumping on the latest linkage bandwagon?

You can hardly tell the difference between old 5's and new 5's. And its not just that.. take a look at the 224, patriot, alpine and 5. They're all the same bloody bike!

Just like all Intenses? Kona's, Giant, Trek, etc etc? Is it a problem they have a specific look? Who cares if they look similar?

There are just better options out there, Orange bikes miss the mark by a long way... who gives a toss if it was hand built by a hippie in his shed?

Hippie in a shed, sweatshop in China/Taiwan. Since we're stereotyping.

Better bikes out there, maybe in your opinion. Of course, opinions vary. What is maybe better for you is of course personal.

I want good spec at good value, not sh!t spec and extortionate prices!

I want a bike that suits my criteria, spec is peripheral. Value is largly inconsequential, as there is no point in buying a cheap bike if I don't like the way it rides. Likewise there is no point in spending a fortune in the hope that because it cost a lot it will be great.

The only reason there is a hippieish following is because its the only way Orange owners can justify the fact that they have been royally bent over and shafted.

I can't recall seeing a hippy on an Orange. I did see a hippy looking chap on an Ibis Mojo earlier today when out though. Maybe he was shafted too. I mean 2 grand on a bike made of plastic? What a fool!

I'm sure the Orange 5 rides great and does everything you could want it to do

Isn't that what we all want from our bikes? If it does, and the owner is happy to pay, then where is the issue?

I have the same sort of gripe with Fox forks

Interesting logic.

bennett_346

Hob Nob wrote:

x

wow.

The Northern Monkey

Hob Nob wrote:

*snippy snip*

Have you ever thought of buying a 5? I predict that it would be suited to you perrrrrfectly!

benpinnick

Hob Nob wrote:

Value is largly inconsequential

You make some interesting points about how Orange 5 owners think. This I would say is the most telling.

Hob Nob

The Northern Monkey wrote:

Hob Nob wrote:

*snippy snip*

Have you ever thought of buying a 5? I predict that it would be suited to you perrrrrfectly!

I have, and ridden a few, even borrowed one to go out to race the Mega on. The low BB, short chain stays & slack HA make it an ideal candidate for me. But, the 18" was just a touch too small & the 20" felt too big, so it was a no go.

Other than that,the frame ticked all the boxes. Wouldn't buy it as a full build as we all have our own parts preference, but as a frame only it was reasonably priced & cheaper than most of the competition, bar the NP Mega & Heckler (albeit it with it's geo from 10 years ago).

Very happy with my plastic Santa Cruz instead

benpinnick wrote:

Hob Nob wrote:

Value is largly inconsequential

You make some interesting points about how Orange 5 owners think. This I would say is the most telling.

I wouldn't know

However, when talking £1000+ on a frame it does become so. Is my Nomad C £1600 better than a £999 NP Mega? Probably not, but I didn't want to buy a Nuke Proof - thus it becomes inconsequential.