decision in Armstrong Case and Dennis's Skiiing trip to Vail

RichN95.

My views on this.

1. I'm still convinced he cheated, but I'm not too bothered as so did Ullrich, Basso, Zulle etc. He was a product of his time.

2. This is broadly good for cycling. I believe that the sport has moved on since 2005. I don't think trawling over history would have been of much benefit, just damaging.

3. I haven't looked yet, but the reaction of the hardcore anti-Armstrong obsessives in the Asylum must be priceless. That will be amusing.

cajun_cyclist

To me it is about these cyclists demeanour and really about all of them, except for Cadel and I'm no Australian do not convey a trusting disposition to me. It has little to do with their Nationality, maybe nothing at all. Like Millar, not a bad guy but clearly comes off as self-serving. It's a mad sport. That much is true.

I've seen with my own eyes, Armstrong get into his tussles with Simeone, all of those other things like that, it's just not cricket to me, I don't expect him to be a saint. It all goes with being a sports celebrity. He's always been too cocky but who is a sport personality who has gone over well? That is a topic to complex to address in this forum.

Tusher

Ooooh, didn't see that coming.
And whether it's the in thing to say or not, I'm truly disappointed.


Not that everyone's said and written everything there is to say or write on the subject though, and I imagine The Clinic's in meltdown right now.


pass slipped stitch over and k2tog

dennisn

afx237vi wrote:

Bikeradar's version of Pavlov's dog strikes again. Where's Dennis these days anyway?

Oh, I'm still around. Never fear. Guess I got tired of the Forum there for a while and took some time off. Heard the Lance thing on the news tonight and just had to stop by to see what was being said. Glad to see all the regular names that I know and love still fighting it out. I guess I'm in the sort of don't care category. Been having too much fun skiing, of late, to work up much Lance enthusiasm, one way or another, these days.

Tusher

(waves brightly at Dennisn)

Great to see you back Dennis- cup of tea and a buttered crumpet?

RichN95.

Tusher wrote:

Ooooh, didn't see that coming.

I did. And I told the Clinic that I didn't think that this would ultimately come to anything. This was based on my general experience of the practicalities of the law. I got so much abuse for it, even though I think he doped a lot. I haven't kept the PMs I got on there - but some where amazingly crazy.

Tusher

Yup, it's not called The Asylum for nothing. And tonight's news won't have changed anyone's opinion either way, although in the greater scheme of things, I still think it's healthier that a lot of dirty laundry has been aired.

Still, life's too short. I was on a girl's night out (translation, a crowd of middle aged women drinking slightly too much and trying to talk to each other over some guy with a guitar murdering Springsteen in a packed hot hotel lounge bar whilst discussing herbal remedies for hot flushes and texting our husbands to come and collect us) when I saw the text from The Comic. I instantly showed it round my girl friends who are now very tolerant of my cycling obsession. A couple of years ago, they were incredulous that Lance could have doped. Tonight, oddly, their first reaction was 'so he's got off with it then'. Not one of them could name how many Tours he won.

Then we ordered another round of drinks.

Tusher

Wonder what Hincapie's thinking right now.

cajun_cyclist

I believe in reference to Rich's post that we had an "impression" of the real possibility of this coming to nothing when after, oh, I don't know how many months, 18? 24? of this investigation people started asking "what's going on". I still think my initial post that when you see the seriousness of crimes, the Federal Prosecutors are dealing with as with Birotte above and the previously touted fact of their high success rate in prosecuting crimes, it is very well possible they did not see this affair as having met a threshold with which it deserved to be prosecuted. To me, this is as real of a possibility as any other theory.

http://msn.foxsports.com/cycling/story/ ... s-26323588

But now, I'm not in it for Contador to get hooked here but if he flies free too, I'll really think a bit about watching the approaching tour and then, figure, some of these guys at least do seem relatively upstanding as I said, to be clean and honourable to the sport in context and probably go ahead. But some of them likewise will seem very suspect.

cajun_cyclist

So some get their livestrong gear back out.... don't know, maybe not.

dennisn

Tusher wrote:

Still, life's too short. ....... when I saw the text from The Comic. I instantly showed it round my girl friends who are now very tolerant of my cycling obsession. A couple of years ago, they were incredulous that Lance could have doped. Tonight, oddly, their first reaction was 'so he's got off with it then'. Not one of them could name how many Tours he won.

Then we ordered another round of drinks.

Couldn't have said it better myself. "...life's too short". As I was skiing down one of the longer runs in Vail, did my thoughts turn to Lance? Hell no, I was thinking that if I bumped up the tempo a bit I might make it down before the 4 o'clock cutoff on the gondola and get in one more run. And as I recall, I did. Couple of Stellas all around with my buddies and that's a day.

cajun_cyclist

Couldn't have said it better myself. "...life's too short". As I was skiing down one of the longer runs in Vail, did my thoughts turn to Lance? Hell no, I was thinking that if I bumped up the tempo a bit I might make it down before the 4 o'clock cutoff on the gondola and get in one more run. And as I recall, I did. Couple of Stellas all around with my buddies and that's a day.

So someone is forcing you to be here? Hell yes? I mean this is a discussion forum after all.

I petition bikeradar to change the name of this thread to "decision in Armstrong Case and Dennis's Skiiing trip to Vail, followed up by some Stella Artoises."

dennisn

cajun_cyclist wrote:

Couldn't have said it better myself. "...life's too short". As I was skiing down one of the longer runs in Vail, did my thoughts turn to Lance? Hell no, I was thinking that if I bumped up the tempo a bit I might make it down before the 4 o'clock cutoff on the gondola and get in one more run. And as I recall, I did. Couple of Stellas all around with my buddies and that's a day.

So someone is forcing you to be here? Hell yes? I mean this is a discussion forum after all.

I petition bikeradar to change the name of this thread to "decision in Armstrong Case and Dennis's Skiiing trip to Vail, followed up by some Stella Artoises."

All I can think of to say is, you guessed it, "life's too short".

cajun_cyclist

Well, I rode 45 kms. in the cold mist, through some dark forests basically last night, worked yesterday, worked today, am a bit wiped out by all that, may have even come down with a minor cold but even if I did not do all that, I still think we all have a right to post our opinion, not that "life is too short", life is also too short to not take in a major news story, relax and read the news and recover. That's what I think. I don't have over 7200 posts or even 2000, a mere 411.

dennisn

cajun_cyclist wrote:

Well, I rode 45 kms. in the cold mist, through some dark forests basically last night, worked yesterday, worked today, am a bit wiped out by all that, may have even come down with a minor cold but even if I did not do all that, I still think we all have a right to post our opinion, not that "life is too short", life is also too short to not take in a major news story, relax and read the news and recover. That's what I think. I don't have over 7200 posts or even 2000, a mere 411.

You seem to want me to say something but I'm not sure what.
What is it about the mere mention of Lance that sets people off?

dave_1

I am happy no charges were brought. Now the forum has to change a little. Biking Bernie..you've lost your gig

Crankbrother

At lease Lemond will have to back to being just another face in the crowd of 'guys who won stuff a while ago' ... He was hoping he could be king of the castle again, guess not Greg ... Bet that'll cut intomhis appearance money ...

blazing_saddles

Thank God it's over, just as the new season is about to get under way.
I lost interest in this pointless saga months ago.
Everything shady in cycling is always far too protracted.

BikingBernie

Oh, well,

Any hope that Armstrong would be brought to account was probably a bit like hoping for world peace or a more equitable distribution of the world's wealth. Unfortunately the reality is that the rich and powerful generally get their way and corruption rules.

So, Armstrong has 'got away' with the criminal conspiracy charges, but there is still overwhelming evidence that he doped his way to his seven meaningless Tour 'wins'.

The UCI is still incompetent, self-serving and most likely corrupt.

Most of all, thanks in no small part to those who knew what went on in in USP and Discovery but who failed to speak out when the time was right, such as Vaughters and Hincapie, the omerta still rules.

Unfortunately, this decision will ensure that cycling will continue much as it has for the last couple of decades, and the only way to enjoy the 'sport' will be to continue to suspend ones' critical faculties and willingly engage in the fantasy that what one is seeing has any sort of authenticity.

iainf72

Crankbrother wrote:

At lease Lemond will have to back to being just another face in the crowd of 'guys who won stuff a while ago' ... He was hoping he could be king of the castle again, guess not Greg ... Bet that'll cut intomhis appearance money ...

Not sure what LeMond has to do with anything. The investigation was kicked off by what they found while digging through Rock Racing's case.

I think RichN95 sort of has it on the money. The only difference is guys like Basso and Ullrich have been shamed somewhat.

BikingBernie

Maybe it is not all over yet...

...the US Anti Doping Agency CEO Travis T Tygart has said that the matter is not over. "Unlike the US Attorney, Usada's job is to protect clean sport rather than enforce specific criminal laws," he indicated in a statement. "Our investigation into doping in the sport of cycling is continuing and we look forward to obtaining the information developed during the federal investigation."

All that effort he put into creating his 'patron saint of cancer' shield of invulnerabilty seems to have been well spent:

A spokeswoman for Livestrong, Katherine McLane, said the group was "very glad to hear this news." She called Armstrong an inspiration to millions of cancer survivors.

That could have played a role in prosecutors' decision, one expert said.

"The government always has a tremendous amount of prosecutorial discretion regarding whether or not to bring an indictment. In this case it appears that they have acted judiciously and likely considered all of the good works of Lance Armstrong and his foundation," said Mathew Rosengart, a former federal prosecutor who is not involved in the case.

CYCLESPORT1

Great news, who knows, he may make a comeback

dougzz

I'd like to say so what, it's all history. But I do care, it's plainly wrong that he'll never face some sort of sanction. As usual people further down the food chain have suffered, whilst the worst offender just walks away. Maybe it's just petty spite on my part, but I feel he got away with it and that's just wrong. I suppose he's had some damage done in terms of public opinion, but that doesn't seem enough somehow. I'm not some raving maniac from The Clinic, just someone who feels justice failed here.

zippypablo

RichN95 wrote:

My views on this.

1. I'm still convinced he cheated, but I'm not too bothered as so did Ullrich, Basso, Zulle etc. He was a product of his time.

2. This is broadly good for cycling. I believe that the sport has moved on since 2005. I don't think trawling over history would have been of much benefit, just damaging.

3. I haven't looked yet, but the reaction of the hardcore anti-Armstrong obsessives in the Asylum must be priceless. That will be amusing.

Pretty much my view on the whole affair.
There will be some who see this as proof of innocence and some who will feel cheated that justice was not done.
I think most will just be happy that a line has been drawn under the whole thing and things can move on.

mfin

To be clear here (can someone please correct the following, cos this is how I understand it broadly) ...this is NOT a verdict which concludes 'Lance Armstrong didnt dope', this means they have dropped the case against him of him commiting a federal offence, and the case came about because of US Postal's sponsorship and how that is funded? So misuse of that sponsorship money going into doping was under investigation, as that would be a federal offence?

Points of view wise, I think for any layman to impartially read up, take in the facts and not conclude that he doped heavily (along with lots and lots of others though, Im not denying that) would be incredible really. Yes, I would also like to see him be made an example by having all his tour wins stripped from him, unfair of me? No, I have nothing personal against Lance, I just think the biggest example would be the best. Id also like all wins nullified from anyone else who has doped, because its cheating. If that means ANY winner in history, Im fine with that myself.

When I say read the facts... what I mean is read up on EPO, what it does, the massive advantage it gave, particularly when there was no test so you could have the full advantage of it... add to that the fact there was no test, and when one was developed it was primitive / easy to get round.... add to that the fact people took EPO, its not a 'do aliens exist question', its fact... and then you have to conclude stacks of people were on it, and Armstrong 'amongst every other contender' would be not a contender at all unless he/they was/were 'on it' too.

I know this is a simple way of putting it, but sometimes things dont have to be that complicated to conclude whats gone on. Now, trying to find syringes and receipts and so on and so on from up to some 13 years ago, thats a different matter.

Im sure noone on here would ever actually want a cheat to win anything, Id hope not. If we could rewind time and even if 90% of the peloton could be proved to be doping and banned, then that would be fine by me, Id prefer to see the other 10% fight it out honourably.

Jez mon

The bit that everyone (accept Bernie) seems to have ignored from the Guardian article, is

However the US Anti Doping Agency CEO Travis T Tygart has said that the matter is not over. "Unlike the US Attorney, Usada's job is to protect clean sport rather than enforce specific criminal laws," he indicated in a statement. "Our investigation into doping in the sport of cycling is continuing and we look forward to obtaining the information developed during the federal investigation."

I think what may well happen, is that Lance will get some kind of official black mark put against his name (not sure what they can do to a retired athlete) by the USADA, who will find him guilty of doping.

Lance will then be able to claim he was let off by the Federal Investigation, USADA will be able to say they caught a big fish and we'll all live happily ever after.

Something like that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/fe ... ion-closed

RichN95.

Jez mon wrote:

The bit that everyone (accept Bernie) seems to have ignored from the Guardian article, is

However the US Anti Doping Agency CEO Travis T Tygart has said that the matter is not over. "Unlike the US Attorney, Usada's job is to protect clean sport rather than enforce specific criminal laws," he indicated in a statement. "Our investigation into doping in the sport of cycling is continuing and we look forward to obtaining the information developed during the federal investigation."

I think what may well happen, is that Lance will get some kind of official black mark put against his name (not sure what they can do to a retired athlete) by the USADA, who will find him guilty of doping.

Lance will then be able to claim he was let off by the Federal Investigation, USADA will be able to say they caught a big fish and we'll all live happily ever after.

Something like that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/fe ... ion-closed

The USADA may still progress, but they must realise it's going to cost them a lot of money in legal fees. Are they willing to spend that trying to ban someone who has retired? Maybe, but it would seem an odd choice to me.

cal_stewart

looks like I'll have to buy that rifle then.

I don't like lance not because he doped, that was part of his era. In a way I don't think his 7 wins were cheating as everyone was doing it. I also think he is one of the best cyclists to have lived.

However its him as a person away from cycling that breaks me.

Jez mon

RichN95 wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

The bit that everyone (accept Bernie) seems to have ignored from the Guardian article, is

However the US Anti Doping Agency CEO Travis T Tygart has said that the matter is not over. "Unlike the US Attorney, Usada's job is to protect clean sport rather than enforce specific criminal laws," he indicated in a statement. "Our investigation into doping in the sport of cycling is continuing and we look forward to obtaining the information developed during the federal investigation."

I think what may well happen, is that Lance will get some kind of official black mark put against his name (not sure what they can do to a retired athlete) by the USADA, who will find him guilty of doping.

Lance will then be able to claim he was let off by the Federal Investigation, USADA will be able to say they caught a big fish and we'll all live happily ever after.

Something like that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/fe ... ion-closed

The USADA may still progress, but they must realise it's going to cost them a lot of money in legal fees. Are they willing to spend that trying to ban someone who has retired? Maybe, but it would seem an odd choice to me.

I would guess it depends on the quality of the information developed in the federal investigation and how those within the organisation feel towards Lance. It would still be a landmark ruling, and would send a message to athletes, even if you don't get caught during your career, anti doping will track you down, and drag your reputation through ****!

Would the money be better spent elsewhere, I don't think there's any argument, yes it would be, but on the other hand, I do feel that it would be "right" for him to at least be brought to justice, or respond to specific allegations with something more convincing than, "I got tested a lot and only failed a few, but then I got a post dated TUE and it was all fine plus the EPO one doesn't count anyway."

dg74

Y'know what - big deal!

It's over, let's just ride our bikes and get on with it.