Have Team Sky backed the wrong man?

P_Tucker

Indeed. Long after the horse has bolted.

Turfle

P_Tucker wrote:

Wiggins managed to get a few mill despite the fact that he was never going to win a GT.

Wiggins was a different case in that Sky were a new team, and really really needed a British face to sell to the public.

And I think Wiggins has shown this Vuelta that on a course more suited to him, maybe with two TTs, no Zoncolan/Angliru, and slightly better preparation, he can very much win a GT.

skavanagh.bikeradar

Absolutely. He's certainly shown he's capable as a GT rider.

P_Tucker

Turfle wrote:

P_Tucker wrote:

Wiggins managed to get a few mill despite the fact that he was never going to win a GT.

Wiggins was a different case in that Sky were a new team, and really really needed a British face to sell to the public.

And I think Wiggins has shown this Vuelta that on a course more suited to him, maybe with two TTs, no Zoncolan/Angliru, and slightly better preparation, he can very much win a GT.

I can't remember a GT with a weaker field than this one, and still he gets beaten by his own domestique.

rebs

No Evens Schlek of Contador... other then that the field looked strong. Everyone was saying it would be fantastic if Wiggins got Top 10... No his being slagged off because he isnt winning the thing? Seriously?

cogidubnus

P_Tucker wrote:

Turfle wrote:

P_Tucker wrote:

Wiggins managed to get a few mill despite the fact that he was never going to win a GT.

Wiggins was a different case in that Sky were a new team, and really really needed a British face to sell to the public.

And I think Wiggins has shown this Vuelta that on a course more suited to him, maybe with two TTs, no Zoncolan/Angliru, and slightly better preparation, he can very much win a GT.

I can't remember a GT with a weaker field than this one, and still he gets beaten by his own domestique.

To be fair he crashed 6 weeks ago so his preparation wasn't ideal. Froome was always going to ride the Vuelta. Im not saying Brad is a worldbeater but he is ahead of Nibs, J Rod, Van den Broek, Menchov et al

Turfle

P_Tucker wrote:

Turfle wrote:

P_Tucker wrote:

Wiggins managed to get a few mill despite the fact that he was never going to win a GT.

Wiggins was a different case in that Sky were a new team, and really really needed a British face to sell to the public.

And I think Wiggins has shown this Vuelta that on a course more suited to him, maybe with two TTs, no Zoncolan/Angliru, and slightly better preparation, he can very much win a GT.

I can't remember a GT with a weaker field than this one, and still he gets beaten by his own domestique.

Really?
GT results last two years:

Nibali: 3rd Giro 2010, 3rd Giro 2011, 1st Vuelta 2010
Scarponi: 4th Giro 2010, 2nd Giro 2011
Rodriguez: 5th Giro 2011, 4th Vuelta 2010
Menchov: 3rd Tour de France 2010
Anton: would have won Vuelta last year.
Van Den Broeck: 5th Tour de France 2010

Not even mentioning the young talent who have top 10s in GTs to their names, like Mollema and Kruijswijk.

Hardly a weak field.

autobahn

Hold on - I think the revelation of Froome is fantastic - but you have to remember only 6 weeks ago Bradley Wiggins had a broken collar bone and didnt know he was doing the Vuelta.
He's likely to get a podium place and my opinion of him has changed. We never got to see what he could do in the TDF - look what hes done in the Vuelta with a broken collar bone and certainly not the same prep he would put in for the TDF.

onthefells

So back to my original question...have Sky backed the wrong man?

answer: of course they have

as for all the hindsight replies...it was nothing to do with hindsight it was apparent early on in the tour Froome was riding better than Wiggins and blatantly obvious to anyone he was following the tt!! If Froome hadn't buried himself for Wiggins on a couple of those stages he would be in the lead not 13 secs behind.

Hopefully he can still do it but if not team tactics have cost Sky their first major tour victory. They should have been flexible and ready to change tactics but because of Brailsford's 'relationship' with Wiggins that was never going to happen. A more 'brutal' team manager would have changed plan.

Thats the 'problem' with having a 'character' such as Wiggins as team leader and if Cav does join then its going to complicate matters still further.

thamacdaddy

onthefells wrote:

So back to my original question...have Sky backed the wrong man?

answer: of course they have

as for all the hindsight replies...it was nothing to do with hindsight it was apparent early on in the tour Froome was riding better than Wiggins and blatantly obvious to anyone he was following the tt!! If Froome hadn't buried himself for Wiggins on a couple of those stages he would be in the lead not 13 secs behind.

Hopefully he can still do it but if not team tactics have cost Sky their first major tour victory. They should have been flexible and ready to change tactics but because of Brailsford's 'relationship' with Wiggins that was never going to happen. A more 'brutal' team manager would have changed plan.

Thats the 'problem' with having a 'character' such as Wiggins as team leader and if Cav does join then its going to complicate matters still further.

Think this is a bit over the top. No team in the whole pro peloton with a proven top 10 GT contender who is also your marquee top man would change priority after stage 10 in a GT because of 20 seconds difference. It's ridiculous.

Today they obviously said whoever has the legs go for it, and so they did. Sky have had a good Vuleta.

cougie

I don't remember ANYONE posting that Froome should be team leader before the Vuelta.
OTF - did you advise that ?

Cycling is so volatile and it's piss easy to be an expert after things have happened.

mz__jo

Cogidubnus wrote:

P_Tucker wrote:

Turfle wrote:

P_Tucker wrote:

Wiggins managed to get a few mill despite the fact that he was never going to win a GT.

Wiggins was a different case in that Sky were a new team, and really really needed a British face to sell to the public.

And I think Wiggins has shown this Vuelta that on a course more suited to him, maybe with two TTs, no Zoncolan/Angliru, and slightly better preparation, he can very much win a GT.

I can't remember a GT with a weaker field than this one, and still he gets beaten by his own domestique.

To be fair he crashed 6 weeks ago so his preparation wasn't ideal. Froome was always going to ride the Vuelta. Im not saying Brad is a worldbeater but he is ahead of Nibs, J Rod, Van den Broek, Menchov et al

It is all in Brad's favour that he has come back so quickly and so well after crashing out of the TdF. However if he assumes team n°1 he should assume all the responsibilities, including being the strongest. If there is a doubt over his capabilities then there should be a doubt over his role as n°1 (and here there isn't even a doubt about it). I get the impression that somehow people are still thinking with a first week mentality in Sky, that there is somehow a priority in getting Brad on the podium rather than getting a Sky rider to win the tour. It has nothing to do with Chris Froome's potential as an all-round GC contender, or about his past record, or his power figures. In this race now, in the second half, he has a chance of winning if Brad doesn't get in the way whereas with all Chris' help and sacrifice Brad is not going to win, he might just hold onto third. Which doesn't mean that Brad shouldn't be leading for the GTs next year, it simply means that the team management has to learn to make most of what chance puts their way (and I am not sure that they are capable of realising that. They will now have a last minute scramble for seconds that they should have got in hand 5 days ago or even sooner)

RichN95.

cougie wrote:

I don't remember ANYONE posting that Froome should be team leader before the Vuelta.
OTF - did you advise that ?

Cycling is so volatile and it's wee-wee easy to be an expert after things have happened.

On the transfer thread, there's even a couple who thought that Froome would be one of the 11 riders that Sky were getting rid of (and at that stage, they might not have been wrong).

@onthefells This sport has plenty of riders that have been great for a week, ten days, sometimes almost two weeks and then faded. There was no guarantee that Froome, who has been fairly erratic so far in his career, wasn't another one. Wiggins, on the other hand, has shown he can last the distance. He was the more sensible bet, and a decent bet too, it's not like he's 22nd.

thamacdaddy

RichN95 wrote:

On the transfer thread, there's even a couple who thought that Froome would be one of the 11 riders that Sky were getting rid of (and at that stage, they might not have been wrong).

Hasn't that just been posted again tonight, apparently with Cummings, both signed elsewhere.

RichN95.

thamacdaddy wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

On the transfer thread, there's even a couple who thought that Froome would be one of the 11 riders that Sky were getting rid of (and at that stage, they might not have been wrong).

Hasn't that just been posted again tonight, apparently with Cummings, both signed elsewhere.

It has, but without a source though. So who knows? When Froome started coming to attention, his agent said he hadn't signed anything but would like to stay at Sky, and Brailsford said he'd be at Sky for 2012.

I'd be surprised if he left. Judging by riders twitters, he seems well liked and in with the right people.

P_Tucker

mz__jo wrote:

Cogidubnus wrote:

P_Tucker wrote:

Turfle wrote:

P_Tucker wrote:

Wiggins managed to get a few mill despite the fact that he was never going to win a GT.

Wiggins was a different case in that Sky were a new team, and really really needed a British face to sell to the public.

And I think Wiggins has shown this Vuelta that on a course more suited to him, maybe with two TTs, no Zoncolan/Angliru, and slightly better preparation, he can very much win a GT.

I can't remember a GT with a weaker field than this one, and still he gets beaten by his own domestique.

To be fair he crashed 6 weeks ago so his preparation wasn't ideal. Froome was always going to ride the Vuelta. Im not saying Brad is a worldbeater but he is ahead of Nibs, J Rod, Van den Broek, Menchov et al

It is all in Brad's favour that he has come back so quickly and so well after crashing out of the TdF. However if he assumes team n°1 he should assume all the responsibilities, including being the strongest. If there is a doubt over his capabilities then there should be a doubt over his role as n°1 (and here there isn't even a doubt about it). I get the impression that somehow people are still thinking with a first week mentality in Sky, that there is somehow a priority in getting Brad on the podium rather than getting a Sky rider to win the tour. It has nothing to do with Chris Froome's potential as an all-round GC contender, or about his past record, or his power figures. In this race now, in the second half, he has a chance of winning if Brad doesn't get in the way whereas with all Chris' help and sacrifice Brad is not going to win, he might just hold onto third. Which doesn't mean that Brad shouldn't be leading for the GTs next year, it simply means that the team management has to learn to make most of what chance puts their way (and I am not sure that they are capable of realising that. They will now have a last minute scramble for seconds that they should have got in hand 5 days ago or even sooner)

Exactly. FFS

P_Tucker

cougie wrote:

I don't remember ANYONE posting that Froome should be team leader before the Vuelta.
OTF - did you advise that ?

Cycling is so volatile and it's wee-wee easy to be an expert after things have happened.

No-ones claiming he should have been team leader from the off, but:

1. He beat Wiggins in a pan flat TT FFS
2. Sky management has access to a lot more information that we do on which to judge riders form.

El Imbatido

Yes Wiggins is doing well here but he has had some things go his way:

Guys not in top form: Nibali, J-Rod, Anton, Menchov, Kloden, Brajkovic
Guys crashing: Scarponi, J-Rod (again),
Guys that are in really good form: Wiggins, Froome, Mollema, Cobo, Kessiakoff (for a while)
Guys coming back from injury: Jurgen VDB (punctured lung, 3 cracked ribs and busted shoulder), Wiggins (collarbone)
Big GC guys not here: Contador, Schleck x2, Evans, Basso, Gesink, even guys like P.Velits, Mosquera, Leipheimer and Horner

I say with all this it has sort of contributed to a power vacuum where no one person is dominant and everyone is trying to stamp some authority on the race. Makes for exciting racing

phil s

P_Tucker wrote:

No-ones claiming he should have been team leader from the off, but:

1. He beat Wiggins in a pan flat TT FFS
2. Sky management has access to a lot more information that we do on which to judge riders form.

Power numbers in training and from racing aren't really going to predict a poor TT result for your main guy like in Salamanca, which was from Wiggins going out too hard in the first half and not having enough in the tank for the second half. He went from being better than Martin to haemorrhaging seconds.
However, Froome's amazing TT is a big surprise, probably the kind that would cause plenty of raised eyebrows if his name was Froomez or Froomio

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

I'd be surprised if he left. Judging by riders twitters, he seems well liked and in with the right people.

If you consider the squad has Wiggins, Uran, Henao - As well as a few other good GT riders, does it make sense for Froome to stay?

And if what I've heard about the Cavendish deal is right, do they have enough money to keep him?

Rodrego Hernandez

It seems that the riders who are definitely out just don't get to ride any (decent) races towards the end of the season, see Hunt, Downing, Henderson, Gerrans. Others they are undecided on get to ride the Vuelta, which they don't take at all seriously because they the team are arrogant and only consider the Tour worthy of any attention to detail. Wiggins crash made the Vuelta a bit more of a priority but there was always a question mark over how he would perform.

Froome recovered from the bilhassa virus just in time to be able to string some notable performances together without his customary bad day and caught the management by surprise. He may have re-signed a contract at the start of the vuelta but I hope he waited. If they can pay WIggins 1.3mil and Cav 1.5mil then they can pay Froome more than the basic wage he is on right now.

onthefells

and if the team aren't going to fully back Froome when he's clearly their strongest rider in the race why would he stay?

Froome has proved himself capable of winning a tour and I suspect no matter what Wiggins will be no.1 at Sky until he packs in. Froome is now massively marketable, why wouldn't he go to another big team who will make him their priority and at the same time cash in whilst he can?

His alternative is to play domestique for Wiggins whilst watching his prime years disappear!!

inkyfingers

onthefells wrote:

and if the team aren't going to fully back Froome when he's clearly their strongest rider in the race why would he stay?

Froome has proved himself capable of winning a tour and I suspect no matter what Wiggins will be no.1 at Sky until he packs in. Froome is now massively marketable, why wouldn't he go to another big team who will make him their priority and at the same time cash in whilst he can?

His alternative is to play domestique for Wiggins whilst watching his prime years disappear!!

He'll have proved he can win a tour when he gets to Madrid in red. He's looking good for a podium at the moment but the 3rd week of a GT can do funny things to a rider, particularly when he put in such a massive attack yesterday.

I'm not putting a downer on him, his attack yesterday was fabulous to watch, but we mustn't count the chickens before they've hatched and he's never proved his ability to finish a short stage race without having a bad day yet.

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

I'd be surprised if he left. Judging by riders twitters, he seems well liked and in with the right people.

If you consider the squad has Wiggins, Uran, Henao - As well as a few other good GT riders, does it make sense for Froome to stay?

And if what I've heard about the Cavendish deal is right, do they have enough money to keep him?

I think it would make sense. It's Sky that have got him to this stage, and he may not find the support quite as good on some other teams. Of his teammates, Uran hasn't quite made the big breakthrough yet and Henao is almost completely untested in Europe.

As to the money. He's ironically probably limited his choices. There won't be many teams with the sort of money he can now command spare in September. Sky, being a sponsor owned team, will find it easier to find the extra cash than most.

Tom Butcher

I don't think it's a case of Sky favouring Wiggins - more that they already have Wiggins signed up and Froome's ride in the Vuelta positions him at a similar level - a GC contender just outside the top rank for the grand tours.

Sky will already have most of their budget committed and it's come quite late in the day for Froome to increase his market value - when they might have been looking to sign him as a domestique suddenly he'll be looking for a team leader position. I can see them going their separate ways simply because SKy may not be looking for another leader and so wont want or be able to pay Froome as such whereas other teams will.

On the other hand they may see Froome as someone they can stick into a grand tour alongside Cav and tell him to fend for himself or with limited support with the rest built around the sprints - and Froome may not want the upset of joining a new team just as his career has started to take off. Ultimately though it's his job and if someone comes in with a fat cheque he's likely to go there whoever it is.

mroli

And if Cobo ends up losing to Froome, will everyone be pointing the finger at Geox and say "they got it wrong"?

Sky would have been well happy with the state of play if you took Froome completely out of the picture (ie with Wiggins in 2/3 position). Having him in 2 is a bonus for them. Also, Wiggins will be there next year, there is a question about Froome, so Wiggins' points are more valuable.

I think Sky will try to keep Froome and that this is "in play".

squired

Froome is in a great position in terms of his contract. With a podium place in the Vuelta he can definitely command a decent salary. However, anyone making him a large offer is also taking a huge risk, as this is just one result.

We will have a better idea of Froome's ability a few months into next season. By then someone will have potentially put a large amount of money in his back pocket.

Sky are clearly a team that like to look at a rider's numbers, as we often heard mention of them in terms of Wiggins. No doubt they also have detailed numbers for Froome, so know exactly what he is or isn't capable of.

rick_chasey

Will Froome ever compete for an overall again?

??

oldwelshman

onthefells wrote:

So back to my original question...have Sky backed the wrong man?

answer: of course they have

as for all the hindsight replies...it was nothing to do with hindsight it was apparent early on in the tour Froome was riding better than Wiggins and blatantly obvious to anyone he was following the tt!! If Froome hadn't buried himself for Wiggins on a couple of those stages he would be in the lead not 13 secs behind.

Hopefully he can still do it but if not team tactics have cost Sky their first major tour victory. They should have been flexible and ready to change tactics but because of Brailsford's 'relationship' with Wiggins that was never going to happen. A more 'brutal' team manager would have changed plan.

Thats the 'problem' with having a 'character' such as Wiggins as team leader and if Cav does join then its going to complicate matters still further.

Can you let me know this weeks lottry numbers please as you obviously can predict everything.

Tom Butcher

Brailsford and co. should just have signed Contador, Evans and Cobo this time last year and then the whole Wiggins - Froome question could have been avoided - what fools they were !