Have Team Sky backed the wrong man?

fredmac

calvjones wrote:

fredmac wrote:

mr_poll wrote:

It's a moot question.

Had they swapped after the TT and then Froome had a bad day (which could easily of happened or still happen given his form coming into the tour) then would you be starting a thread "Are Team Sky poor tacticians by swapping their team leader halfway through a GT"

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - Wiggins wasn't that far off after the TT you stay with Plan A unless Plan A implodes.

I think that you could argue that Plan A has imploded.
So what to do now?

I suspect given the Angliru Sky's plan A may have been 'keep Brad on the podium'. If so, hardly an implosion.

That may be so, but now Froome is ahead of Wiggins and you would think has the best chance of catching Cobo.
So do they stick with Wiggins or go to plan B?
Will be interesting to see what happens in the coming week.

pedalpower

I never quite understand the arguments that someone must have doped because they looked fresher or seemed to suffer less. Surely even if you've doped and have a performance advantage you're still going to take yourself to the absolute limit in order to get as much time as possible - unless like Armstrong you never need to.

Cobo's enormous superiority was most evident i thought the day before the Angliru - the way he exploded of the Wiggins group and chased down that Euskatel rider in seconds was pretty incredible.

symo

pedalpower wrote:

I never quite understand the arguments that someone must have doped because they looked fresher or seemed to suffer less. Surely even if you've doped and have a performance advantage you're still going to take yourself to the absolute limit in order to get as much time as possible - unless like Armstrong you never need to.

Cobo's enormous superiority was most evident i thought the day before the Angliru - the way he exploded of the Wiggins group and chased down that Euskatel rider in seconds was pretty incredible.

You are so right, I mean I am being completely biased what with the excellent form he has showed coming into this race............ oh wait, no you nearly had me there, he has done bugger all prior to this. Any idea why his team withdrew on mass from the 2008 TdF?

fredmac

symo wrote:

pedalpower wrote:

I never quite understand the arguments that someone must have doped because they looked fresher or seemed to suffer less. Surely even if you've doped and have a performance advantage you're still going to take yourself to the absolute limit in order to get as much time as possible - unless like Armstrong you never need to.

Cobo's enormous superiority was most evident i thought the day before the Angliru - the way he exploded of the Wiggins group and chased down that Euskatel rider in seconds was pretty incredible.

You are so right, I mean I am being completely biased what with the excellent form he has showed coming into this race............ oh wait, no you nearly had me there, he has done bugger all prior to this. Any idea why his team withdrew on mass from the 2008 TdF?

Or Wiggins' team in the 2007 TDF
Or How Wiggins came from nowhere to 4th in 2009?

bigmat

symo wrote:

pedalpower wrote:

I never quite understand the arguments that someone must have doped because they looked fresher or seemed to suffer less. Surely even if you've doped and have a performance advantage you're still going to take yourself to the absolute limit in order to get as much time as possible - unless like Armstrong you never need to.

Cobo's enormous superiority was most evident i thought the day before the Angliru - the way he exploded of the Wiggins group and chased down that Euskatel rider in seconds was pretty incredible.

You are so right, I mean I am being completely biased what with the excellent form he has showed coming into this race............ oh wait, no you nearly had me there, he has done bugger all prior to this. Any idea why his team withdrew on mass from the 2008 TdF?

Same reason Wiggins' team did in 2007? I'm pretty cynical re Cobo, but to be fair Froome also looks ET this race. I'll leave the allegations for when there is some evidence.

hammerite

Was Froome due to be Sky's main man for the Vuelta this year up until Wiggins' fall at the Tour? If not then who?

If so it could be said that Froome has spent all season with this as his target. Maybe Wiggins as team leader is plan B.

cogidubnus

I thought Lofquist was going to lead the Vuelta

Turfle

Froome was always going to ride for GC in the Vuelta. Uran was originally down to ride it, but Sky felt they were overracing him. Lofkvist and Zandio both came into the team when it became clear Wiggins would be riding.

pedalpower

symo wrote:

pedalpower wrote:

I never quite understand the arguments that someone must have doped because they looked fresher or seemed to suffer less. Surely even if you've doped and have a performance advantage you're still going to take yourself to the absolute limit in order to get as much time as possible - unless like Armstrong you never need to.

Cobo's enormous superiority was most evident i thought the day before the Angliru - the way he exploded of the Wiggins group and chased down that Euskatel rider in seconds was pretty incredible.

You are so right, I mean I am being completely biased what with the excellent form he has showed coming into this race............ oh wait, no you nearly had me there, he has done bugger all prior to this. Any idea why his team withdrew on mass from the 2008 TdF?

I wasn't saying Cobo was clean. Just that the idea that someone does or doesn't look tired at the end of a stage doesn't seem much of an argument to me. The distance to other riders might be more significant. Same as i've never got the argument that hard stages and Tours encourage doping - the race is against other riders not against the terrain.

mr_poll

I am of no opinion if Cobo dopes - I prefer to put faith in a testing system (with its flaws) however for the purposes of this debate here is something someone posted on another site, which should take away the he looked fresh therefore he doped angle.

Timings from 6km to the finish on the final climb:

Heras 2000 21m58
Heras '02 22m29
COBO '11 23m01
Contador '08 23m09

Cobo's time for the entire climb, 43m44
4th best all time compared with
Heras 2002 41m55,
Contador '08 43m12,
Tonkov and Laiseka '02 43m24.
Faster than Valverde '08 43m54.
So only Contador and the EPO class of 2002 have ever gone up the entire climb faster.

and here is what a former pro thinks

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/9675/Vuelta-a-Espana-Jean-Francois-Bernard-doubts-Cobos-authenticity.aspx

mz__jo

All of this seems to be suggesting that either Froome works for Wiggins or the inverse and that it all has to be decided before the start. This is the same mentality that says that when your designated leader crashes, everyone, including any classification leaders, sits and waits until its decided that he is out of the race. Of course having a domestique who is stronger than the leader is not new or unique to Sky. Indurain had one TdF that he might have won if he hadn't been working for Delgado (who didn't have a hope).
There are also those teams who have a direction capable of making decisions on the fly and winning by it. So far the Sky management has not shown that flair. Earlier in this Vuelta Cobo was saying that Menchov was the Geox team leader but no-one would be betting on a plan that transferred the leader's jersey from Cobo to Menchov now.
Of course the whole problem is that the domestique is ahead of the leader. We all know that domestiques shouldn't do that - so, Chris Froome, get yourself back to 10th place at once where you should really be, and don't dare pass your leader again!!!!!!

P_Tucker

mz__jo wrote:

All of this seems to be suggesting that either Froome works for Wiggins or the inverse and that it all has to be decided before the start. This is the same mentality that says that when your designated leader crashes, everyone, including any classification leaders, sits and waits until its decided that he is out of the race. Of course having a domestique who is stronger than the leader is not new or unique to Sky. Indurain had one TdF that he might have won if he hadn't been working for Delgado (who didn't have a hope).
There are also those teams who have a direction capable of making decisions on the fly and winning by it. So far the Sky management has not shown that flair. Earlier in this Vuelta Cobo was saying that Menchov was the Geox team leader but no-one would be betting on a plan that transferred the leader's jersey from Cobo to Menchov now.
Of course the whole problem is that the domestique is ahead of the leader. We all know that domestiques shouldn't do that - so, Chris Froome, get yourself back to 10th place at once where you should really be, and don't dare pass your leader again!!!!!!

Indeed. When your climber trashes your tester in a flat TT and the rest of the race is climbing, you ride for your climber FFS.

Turfle

Even when your climber's history is littered with good days being followed by awful days, and when your leader came a very good 3rd in the time trial, beating people like Cancellara?

Anyone who says they knew Froome would hold his form for 17 days (so far) is lying through his teeth.

skavanagh.bikeradar

Absolutely. Froome has never done anything like this ever before. I doubt he's even had one day as good as several he's had at this race and as for stringing them all together - well..............it just hasn't happened. I'm sure if Sky had the same powers of hindsight as some on here..........

durhamwasp

Looks every day more and more like they picked the wrong man, Froome takes the lead in TT and can climb steep ascents... What a warrior he was today!

P_Tucker

What, exactly, is a sporting director paid to do? If he doesn't know his riders form inside and out, then he's a glorified taxi driver. Froome's form is indeed a surprise to us outsiders - but if it's a surprise to Sky's management then they derserve to lose this Vuelta. Oh, wait - they have.

durhamwasp

Have Sky still not offered him a new contract? Could play a part in their decision on who to back.

Turfle

P_Tucker wrote:

What, exactly, is a sporting director paid to do? If he doesn't know his riders form inside and out, then he's a glorified taxi driver. Froome's form is indeed a surprise to us outsiders - but if it's a surprise to Sky's management then they derserve to lose this Vuelta. Oh, wait - they have.[/quote

He is paid to put his team, and riders, in the best position to win. Getting Wiggins to chase down the attacks on stage 11, and leaving the race entirely in the hands of Chris Froome would have been lunacy.

When Rodriguez (or Mollema) attacked on the final climb on stage 11, there were 3 choices.
1) Let him ride away.
2) Chase down with race leader Froome.
3) Chase down with 3rd place Wiggins.

Which would you have done?

Turfle

durhamwasp wrote:

Have Sky still not offered him a new contract? Could play a part in their decision on who to back.

They have been in talks since during the Tour de France. The negotiations have no doubt become more complicated for Sky.

iainf72

I wonder if they can afford him now. You'd have to offer him something in the region of what you offered Wiggins to keep him, if someone else is prepared to stump up for him.

P_Tucker

Turfle wrote:

He is paid to put his team, and riders, in the best position to win. Getting Wiggins to chase down the attacks on stage 11, and leaving the race entirely in the hands of Chris Froome would have been lunacy.

When Rodriguez (or Mollema) attacked on the final climb on stage 11, there were 3 choices.
1) Let him ride away.
2) Chase down with race leader Froome.
3) Chase down with 3rd place Wiggins.

Which would you have done?

Difficult to say, since I don't have both Wiggins' and Froome's SRM data for the last few months. However, whilst Froome is an unknown, it was a pretty solid bet that Wiggins would lose a pile of time on the Angliru, as proved to be the case.

skavanagh.bikeradar

He didn't lose that much and I suspect if you were being honest he lost less than you would have bet on.

P_Tucker

skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:

He didn't lose that much and I suspect if you were being honest he lost less than you would have bet on.

Perhaps, but like I say I dont have their training data - and he still lost enough to lose the whole race.

Turfle

iainf72 wrote:

I wonder if they can afford him now. You'd have to offer him something in the region of what you offered Wiggins to keep him, if someone else is prepared to stump up for him.

That'd be tough to do imo. As unbelievably awesome as Froome has ridden this Vuelta, do I really believe from now on he'll challenge in big races? If that sort of money is what he's looking for it becomes a really difficult decision.

Turfle

P_Tucker wrote:

Difficult to say, since I don't have both Wiggins' and Froome's SRM data for the last few months. However, whilst Froome is an unknown, it was a pretty solid bet that Wiggins would lose a pile of time on the Angliru, as proved to be the case.

As it turned out, apart from Cobo, Wiggins beat every one of the contenders on the Angliru.

skavanagh.bikeradar

Yep, I agree with that. Apart from this race they've not seen this sort of form from him before and they have seen him look much more frail. Do they gamble that this isn't a one off (at the end of a contract)?

On the other hand it says GBR after his name and if he can sustain this sort of form then they'd be daft to miss out. Damned if they do, damed if they don't.

P_Tucker

Turfle wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

I wonder if they can afford him now. You'd have to offer him something in the region of what you offered Wiggins to keep him, if someone else is prepared to stump up for him.

That'd be tough to do imo. As unbelievably awesome as Froome has ridden this Vuelta, do I really believe from now on he'll challenge in big races? If that sort of money is what he's looking for it becomes a really difficult decision.

Wiggins managed to get a few mill despite the fact that he was never going to win a GT.

P_Tucker

Turfle wrote:

P_Tucker wrote:

Difficult to say, since I don't have both Wiggins' and Froome's SRM data for the last few months. However, whilst Froome is an unknown, it was a pretty solid bet that Wiggins would lose a pile of time on the Angliru, as proved to be the case.

As it turned out, apart from Cobo, Wiggins beat every one of the contenders on the Angliru.

Well, and Froome of course.

skavanagh.bikeradar

On the other hand can you name the other British riders with a better track record than Wiggins in GTs especially when he signed his contract with Sky.............

mouth

Since Froome has nearly one and a half minutes over Wiggins, I would expect to see a change in priorities tomorrow.