Vuelta Stage 15 **Spoiler**

smithy21

Doobz wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Doobz wrote:

EPIC FAIL by sky.. what a waste of time...

Before this Vuelta had started, what would you have considered a good result for Sky?

true.. was not even expecting any sky rider in the top 10..

Re the other posts.. You don't let someone like cobo or anyone so close on GC just ride up the road ffs..

Jesus- I bet Nibali is gutted you were not in the Liquigas team car when the Wiggins and Froome group headed off up the road the other day.

pedalpower

I admit it's a bit ungracious to start casting aspersions on Cobo just because he beat our boys but one major difference is that when bradley and froome rode well on those stages they werent' a lot better than those riders amongst them, several of whom finished with them. Cobo on the other hand seemed in a different league. But then maybe if we'd had riders like the Schlecks, Contador and Evans in the race they would have been another minute up the road. Maybe Cobo just is a lot stronger.

One other thing is that Cobo doesn't look that skinny to me for a rider flying up a climb like that. They look like the kind of big Armstrong/Ulrich riders we all became so suspicious of. Nor is big Menchov who's had two good days now after a poor timetrial. Whereas if you look at the weight Wiggins has lost and how skinny Froome they look like they should go fast up hil since they can produce the power in the timetrial.

I think it's clear Wiggins can do better - the timetrial indicates that he's not at his best which is not surprising considering that his season was based around the Tour and he's been injured.

rick_chasey

Is there an explanation on why Nibs has been rubbish?

greeny12

Rick Chasey wrote:

Is there an explanation on why Nibs has been rubbish?

Could simply be the Giro effect - all the top guys in that brute of a race have suffered since, even the mighty Contador...and Scarpers din't even make it to the Angliru...

Doobz

smithy21 wrote:

Jesus- I bet Nibali is gutted you were not in the Liquigas team car when the Wiggins and Froome group headed off up the road the other day.

Why? Nibali was on his own and not as strong.

Froome is by far stronger then Wiggins at the moment and this Vuelta suits Froome better.. If Froome didn't have to babysit Wiggins then sky would still have the red jersey and a load of seconds in the bank..

Sky could have and should have won this Vuelta yesterday one way or another but they pissed it up the wall looking after wiggo..

#justmy2cents

Pross

I'd agree to an extent that yesterday there was little benefit in Froome waiting for Wiggins as having a team mate wasn't much of an advantage but I don't think he was waiting on the steepest section.

How 4th and 5th place on one of the toughest climbs in major cycling can be called an epic fail is beyond me though. Many people expected Wiggins to lose time throughout in the mountains but he has been in the front group everytime. Yesterday he cracked but he still cracked later than top climbers like Nibali, J Rod, Mollema etc.. On a slope like the Angliru you just have to ride your own race and if someone else rides off the front you hope you can limit your losses.

incog24

Interesting quote from Nibali on cyclingnews:

Nibali admitted that he was surprised by Cobo’s display on the Angliru, which leaves him in the overall lead with just six stages to go. “Yes, he hasn’t ridden like that since the Tour stage at Hautacam in 2008,” Nibali said. On that occasion, Cobo finished in second place, just behind Saunier Duval teammate Leonardo Piepoli, who subsequently tested positive for CERA.

greeny12

greeny12 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Is there an explanation on why Nibs has been rubbish?

Could simply be the Giro effect - all the top guys in that brute of a race have suffered since, even the mighty Contador...and Scarpers din't even make it to the Angliru...

Or not, as the case may be (from Cyclingnews):

Giro fatigue not a factor

While Alberto Contador paid for his Giro d’Italia-winning efforts with a heavy-legged performance at the Tour de France in July, third-placed Nibali said that his own Giro exertions were no excuse for his lacklustre showing at the Vuelta.

“No, the Giro is a long time ago, it’s in the past,” Nibali said. “And in 2010 I rode the Giro and the Vuelta, finishing third and first.”

If anything, Nibali believes he may have been under-raced in the approach to the Vuelta. In 2010, he was third in the Vuelta a Burgos and won the Trofeo Melinda in the weeks leading up to the Spanish race, whereas this time around, his build-up was rather more low-key and centred on the Tour of Poland.

“Perhaps something was wrong with my build-up, and maybe only riding the Tour of Poland [and the Tre Valli Varesine, where was 15th – ed] was too little,” Nibali admitted. “But I’m still convinced that you can prepare well for both the Giro and the Vuelta."

rickyrider

incog24 wrote:

Interesting quote from Nibali on cyclingnews:

Nibali admitted that he was surprised by Cobo’s display on the Angliru, which leaves him in the overall lead with just six stages to go. “Yes, he hasn’t ridden like that since the Tour stage at Hautacam in 2008,” Nibali said. On that occasion, Cobo finished in second place, just behind Saunier Duval teammate Leonardo Piepoli, who subsequently tested positive for CERA.

Hah - you beat me to it. Read into that quote what you will.

pedalpower

Thinking about this stage it occurred to me that maybe it actually favours a rider like Wiggins. True he's a big guy which should work against him when the gradient gets steeper but he must be skinnier for his height than anyone else out there. But also, because it's so steep, a rider can ride at their own speed because there's little benefit to be had from drafting. Wiggins seems not to be as good at changing tempo and responding to attacks as some riders (like Evans for example who gets out the saddle and sticks like glue) so on less steep climbs he could be isolated to his disadvantage but a climb like this is more like a mountain time trial.

incog24

rickyrider wrote:

incog24 wrote:

Interesting quote from Nibali on cyclingnews:

Nibali admitted that he was surprised by Cobo’s display on the Angliru, which leaves him in the overall lead with just six stages to go. “Yes, he hasn’t ridden like that since the Tour stage at Hautacam in 2008,” Nibali said. On that occasion, Cobo finished in second place, just behind Saunier Duval teammate Leonardo Piepoli, who subsequently tested positive for CERA.

Hah - you beat me to it. Read into that quote what you will.

I think that's about as much as a pro rider can say without just coming out with a straight accusation!

rickyrider

incog24 wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

incog24 wrote:

Interesting quote from Nibali on cyclingnews:

Nibali admitted that he was surprised by Cobo’s display on the Angliru, which leaves him in the overall lead with just six stages to go. “Yes, he hasn’t ridden like that since the Tour stage at Hautacam in 2008,” Nibali said. On that occasion, Cobo finished in second place, just behind Saunier Duval teammate Leonardo Piepoli, who subsequently tested positive for CERA.

Hah - you beat me to it. Read into that quote what you will.

I think that's about as much as a pro rider can say without just coming out with a straight accusation!

sounds pretty much like a straight accusation to me!

oldwelshman

Why does everyone say that Froome should not have waited for Wiggo? Did he say he was waiting? At one point it looked like he was going to fall off and I am pretty sure he was maxed out also and just could not go with Cobo.

pedalpower

oldwelshman wrote:

Why does everyone say that Froome should not have waited for Wiggo? Did he say he was waiting? At one point it looked like he was going to fall off and I am pretty sure he was maxed out also and just could not go with Cobo.

You might be right about yesterday (although he looked most like falling off when because Wiggins ground to a virtual halt in front of him). But on previous days i think he could have gained time. With hindsight Sky's best bet yesterdayand on previous days might have been to send one of them after some time bonuses.

oldwelshman

pedalpower wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

Why does everyone say that Froome should not have waited for Wiggo? Did he say he was waiting? At one point it looked like he was going to fall off and I am pretty sure he was maxed out also and just could not go with Cobo.

You might be right about yesterday (although he looked most like falling off when because Wiggins ground to a virtual halt in front of him). But on previous days i think he could have gained time. With hindsight Sky's best bet yesterdayand on previous days might have been to send one of them after some time bonuses.

I dont see anything wrong in their plan or tactics. How many riders have we seen trying to escape only to blow up?
Dont think any one foresaw that Cobo would do what he did yesterday so now Sky have to try something diffeerent.

Doobz

Pross wrote:

How 4th and 5th place on one of the toughest climbs in major cycling can be called an epic fail is beyond me though.

No one cares about putting in a "good performace" They care about winning..

Team Sky gave a good performance but also gave away the red jersey. Froome would have been able to stay with Cobo, Just sit in his wheel the whole way up the climb but sky being fcuking retarded decided to make him tow everyone, Loosing the jersey and any bonus seconds..

It was a shambles.

rick_chasey

Nibs never said anything when Basso won the Giro.

Pffft.

amaferanga

Doobz wrote:

Pross wrote:

How 4th and 5th place on one of the toughest climbs in major cycling can be called an epic fail is beyond me though.

No one cares about putting in a "good performace" They care about winning..

Team Sky gave a good performance but also gave away the red jersey. Froome would have been able to stay with Cobo, Just sit in his wheel the whole way up the climb but sky being fcuking retarded decided to make him tow everyone, Loosing the jersey and any bonus seconds..

It was a shambles.

Really? And you know that to be a fact how exactly?

inkyfingers

Doobz wrote:

Team Sky gave a good performance but also gave away the red jersey. Froome would have been able to stay with Cobo, Just sit in his wheel the whole way up the climb but sky being fcuking retarded decided to make him tow everyone, Loosing the jersey and any bonus seconds..

It was a shambles.

Rubbish, it's not as easy as that to stay on a wheel on a steep climb where is no benefit in slipstreaming. On the really steep stuff you could tell that Froome was right on the limit wheras Cobo looked like he was sitting on the back of the club run chatting about what kind of cake he was going to have at the cafe stop. Even if Froome had gone with Cobo I think he'd have blown at some point.

calvjones

Doobz wrote:

Pross wrote:

How 4th and 5th place on one of the toughest climbs in major cycling can be called an epic fail is beyond me though.

Froome would have been able to stay with Cobo, Just sit in his wheel the whole way up the climb

It was a shambles.

Yeah. I reckon I could probably have sat on Cobo's wheel too. And come round him for the win.

Doobz

inkyfingers wrote:

Doobz wrote:

Team Sky gave a good performance but also gave away the red jersey. Froome would have been able to stay with Cobo, Just sit in his wheel the whole way up the climb but sky being fcuking retarded decided to make him tow everyone, Loosing the jersey and any bonus seconds..

It was a shambles.

Rubbish, it's not as easy as that to stay on a wheel on a steep climb where is no benefit in slipstreaming. On the really steep stuff you could tell that Froome was right on the limit wheras Cobo looked like he was sitting on the back of the club run chatting about what kind of cake he was going to have at the cafe stop. Even if Froome had gone with Cobo I think he'd have blown at some point.

Of course he looked fresh. He had not been at the front of the lead group towing it along for the last 3 days..

If sky management had some bigger balls and realized froomes potential to win the whole thing was far greater then wiggo's then they would have told wiggo to ride for froome..

Instead Wiggo being the selfish typical brit wants it all for himself or for no one at all..

inkyfingers

Doobz wrote:

Instead Wiggo being the selfish typical brit wants it all for himself or for no one at all..

I agree that Wiggins probably is a selfish rider, but he is also the team leader, who has won the Dauphine, finished 4th in the Tour de France, and is the national road race champion. Remind me again what Froome has won? Oh yes, I nearly forgot he was 14th overall in the Vuelta a Castilla Y Leon this year and how could anyone forget his majestic win the the Tour of Mauritius.

inkyfingers

In other news I rode a PB in my local club 10 last week so am fully expecting that British Cycling will now add me to their squad for the World Championships in Copenhagen.

greeny12

rickyrider wrote:

incog24 wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

incog24 wrote:

Interesting quote from Nibali on cyclingnews:

Nibali admitted that he was surprised by Cobo’s display on the Angliru, which leaves him in the overall lead with just six stages to go. “Yes, he hasn’t ridden like that since the Tour stage at Hautacam in 2008,” Nibali said. On that occasion, Cobo finished in second place, just behind Saunier Duval teammate Leonardo Piepoli, who subsequently tested positive for CERA.

Hah - you beat me to it. Read into that quote what you will.

I think that's about as much as a pro rider can say without just coming out with a straight accusation!

sounds pretty much like a straight accusation to me!

As good as you'll get from one current rider to another. Doesn't mean he's guilty of course, and I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, because as someone else said if you're sitting there not believing what you're watching there's no bloody point in doing so in the first place...

rick_chasey

greeny12 wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

incog24 wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

incog24 wrote:

Interesting quote from Nibali on cyclingnews:

Nibali admitted that he was surprised by Cobo’s display on the Angliru, which leaves him in the overall lead with just six stages to go. “Yes, he hasn’t ridden like that since the Tour stage at Hautacam in 2008,” Nibali said. On that occasion, Cobo finished in second place, just behind Saunier Duval teammate Leonardo Piepoli, who subsequently tested positive for CERA.

Hah - you beat me to it. Read into that quote what you will.

I think that's about as much as a pro rider can say without just coming out with a straight accusation!

sounds pretty much like a straight accusation to me!

As good as you'll get from one current rider to another. Doesn't mean he's guilty of course, and I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, because as someone else said if you're sitting there not believing what you're watching there's no bloody point in doing so in the first place...

Did Nibs say the same about Basso winning the Giro? Last time he rode like that...blah blah.

angliru george2

I rode this in summer 2008 and still remember it vividly!

1st half, nothing unusual as mountain roads go, the Alto de Tenebredo (also on my + Vuelta 2011 route) was a lot steeper (sections of 15% +).

But then the second half... oh boy! It reminded me of the "The Devil's staircase" in wales

http://www.sportivecentral.com/index...rid=130&page=3

only much, MUCH longer!

Unlike the Alps, on the climb there was just about no one around - I stopped and asked / gestured to a couple of blokes (chasing a donkey if I remember correctly - no jokes please!) if it got any easier. They shook their heads grimly and gestured 45 degrees with their hands!

On the 23.5% bit I was struggling in 22 x 32 on a mountain bike!! Oh yes, and in preparation for the Vuelta they were resurfacing the road so there were occasional lorries, diggers (and even a steam roller) going by and best of all, the whole second half was covered in loose gravel. Great!

Check out Pedro Delgado having a tough time in 34 x 28 on a road bike - but he still manages to chat to Chucho Rubiera all the way up. (Spaniards - what are they like?!)

http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/v...gliru/1188711/

Interestingly, on the way down I saw a v high end cyclist (complete with TWO motor cycle outriders with hazard lights flashing) going up - no time to stop and check out exactly who it was but likely a pro doing a recce of the climb pre -vuelta.

I've ridden a lot of mountains before and since notably the Iseran (from the south) and Cormet de Roselend (from North) - lovely scenery, a much 'nicer' experience but NOTHING compared to l'Angliru!!

Forget Alpe d'Huez, get a plane to Oviedo / ferry to Santander or Bilbao and check it out for yourself - you won't forget it in a hurry!!

(then pop down to Granada Province and ride from "Guapa" at sea level, straight up the side of a cliff to "Sierra de lujar" almost 1900 m in less than 30 km with 200km views all the way to Gibraltar and Africa - should blow out the tubes!)

See Climb No 6 on
http://apmforo.mforos.com/401631/989...-de-coe/?pag=3

The Kennington Kaiser

rickyrider wrote:

incog24 wrote:

rickyrider wrote:

incog24 wrote:

Interesting quote from Nibali on cyclingnews:

Nibali admitted that he was surprised by Cobo’s display on the Angliru, which leaves him in the overall lead with just six stages to go. “Yes, he hasn’t ridden like that since the Tour stage at Hautacam in 2008,” Nibali said. On that occasion, Cobo finished in second place, just behind Saunier Duval teammate Leonardo Piepoli, who subsequently tested positive for CERA.

Hah - you beat me to it. Read into that quote what you will.

I think that's about as much as a pro rider can say without just coming out with a straight accusation!

sounds pretty much like a straight accusation to me!

Jean-Francois Bernard saying much the same thing too today:
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/9675/ ... icity.aspx

gabriel959

It is not only Cobo, who if he isn't really doping I am the second coming of Jesus but Froome. Where has this guy arrived from? Oh yes, Barloworld.

Surprise surprise!

frenchfighter

1hr of coverage:
http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/vuel ... e/1189124/

frenchfighter

Monfort 5th in GC! Bloody good job.