Evans/BMC Warranty
Comments
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mjl1982 read your PM's - I can send you info0
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alfablue wrote:
It deals with Satisfactory Quality as well as fit for purpose. Read on. . .or remain ignorant, as you currently are!MountainMonster wrote:alfablue wrote:
utter ignorance!MountainMonster wrote:Also, just a side note, the SOGA doesn't actually cover the appearance of an item, just the functionality, so in this case, it won't stand a chance in court. Different colours of parts supplied do not matter, as the functional side was fulfilled.
The SOGA deals with fit for purpose, the bike is 100% fit for purpose, and is no longer faulty, or whatever you want to say with the break. Colours are not included in fit for purpose, as this is a personal taste, and not purpose related. Prove me wrong, then call it ignorance.
The frame is of satisfactory quality, it's just not a satisfactory color for the owner, which in terms of the SOGA, is completely irrelevant.. Find where it says "if buyer does not like color, he can throw a hissy fit and get his little buddies on bike radar to join his hissy fit and slate evans for offered bad service which is actually good service"
Evans has done their job, the bike was replaced under WARRANTY, the key term there. In the terms of the warranty, it may be replaced with a similar product in some circumstances, which is what has done. BMC has fulfilled their side, Evans has done their side, the OP is just not happy with the color. it's not a legal problem in the slightest. It's not bad customer service by evans either. It's just one big hissy fit from you guys. Feel free to remain as ignorant as you like if you genuienly believe color has anything to do with the SOGA.
I know for a fact, that if I was the Evans manager, I sure wouldn't give him a free seat and other parts just because he is not happy with the colour. As he says himself, Evans has stated this is a warranty item, so he should take any form of action against BMC, which even then, he will just waste his time and money pursuing them as nothing illegal or out of practice has happened. The sooner all you little fanboys of this hissy fit realise that, the better.
Feel free to call me ignorant, but nothing you have said is in the statutes, and having a bachelors in business leads me to believe I may be a bit right in this situation, especially if you think color has anything to do with a legal standpoint on this matter.0 -
You could give a Aspirin a headache.
Keep goin though... you actually amuse me.0 -
Lol, I can't wait to hear the final outcome of this. I hope someone takes a picture of your enraged face when you lose in court, should you be dumb enough to try that route.0
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MountainMonster wrote:........and having a bachelors in business leads me to believe I may be a bit right in this situation, especially if you think color has anything to do with a legal standpoint on this matter.
Lol. Oh, if only you'd said before. We'd have taken you so much more seriously Faster than a tent.......0 -
MM have you ever heard the phrase "when in a hole stop digging"? You are in one big hole showing your complete ignorance, but as said above, it is entertaining.
Forget the F'ing warranty!
For the record, what Consumer Direct told me 2 weeks ago (they are a British Government web site):“Your legal rights in this instance are against the trader from whom the goods were purchased. The legislation that would cover you is the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended). Section 14 of the Act states that goods should be of a 'satisfactory quality' (which includes durability). If they are not, then the seller (not the manufacturer) is in breach of contract and should arrange either a repair or replacement.”.
So you want to say HM Gov is wrong now???????0 -
MountainMonster wrote:Lol, I can't wait to hear the final outcome of this. I hope someone takes a picture of your enraged face when you lose in court, should you be dumb enough to try that route.
You sleepy and little bit grumpy. How many hours in front is Austria... Hopefully you will go a bed in a minute. 0 -
alfablue wrote:MM have you ever heard the phrase "when in a hole stop digging"? You are in one big hole showing your complete ignorance, but as said above, it is entertaining.
Forget the F'ing warranty!
For the record, what Consumer Direct told me 2 weeks ago (they are a British Government web site):“Your legal rights in this instance are against the trader from whom the goods were purchased. The legislation that would cover you is the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended). Section 14 of the Act states that goods should be of a 'satisfactory quality' (which includes durability). If they are not, then the seller (not the manufacturer) is in breach of contract and should arrange either a repair or replacement.”.
So you want to say HM Gov is wrong now???????
Care to explain to me what that is from then? As you are not the OP, and this is not dealing with this case. It says nothing related to color to that. If YOU received that email, it blatently states "in this instance" meaning in your case.
I havn't even fallen in the hole yet, you keep using irrelevant things to this instance to try to prove a false point.0 -
:shock: bachelors in business :shock:
How do I know you are telling the truth...
Anyway.... back to the topic....
Alfablue, I've only got the one PM from you - did reply, have you got my PM.0 -
MountainMonster wrote:The frame is of satisfactory quality, it's just not a satisfactory color for the owner, which in terms of the SOGA, is completely irrelevant.. Find where it says "if buyer does not like color, he can throw a hissy fit and get his little buddies on bike radar to join his hissy fit and slate evans for offered bad service which is actually good service"
How about here:Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the goods supplied under the contract are of satisfactory quality..
(2A)For the purposes of this Act, goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances..
(2B)For the purposes of this Act, the quality of goods includes their state and condition and the following (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—.
(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of the kind in question are commonly supplied,.
(b)appearance and finish,.
(c)freedom from minor defects,.
(d)safety, and.
(e)durability.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54
Or do you work for Evans?
Stewie Griffin wrote:Right, and you are a regular Rhodes Scholar yourself. Where did you graduate from? The University of Duuuuhhh?Faster than a tent.......0 -
alfablue wrote:So Mm you are saying that in your retail work you would try your best to avoid the law and act illegally unless forced to behave by the customer. AMAZING
so MM is ethical and professional or MM is *cum? Tricky one. Hmmm
Is it really getting around the law to use refund as a last resort? Definitely not. if the customer asked for a refund, you do it. But i'm not going to straight off the back say "hey how about I give you your 1300 back and you go by the bike from somewhere else, and i'll lose all the money we have sent trying to sort this for you".
Hardly unethical, and definitely not unprofessional.0 -
MountainMonster wrote:alfablue wrote:MountainMonster wrote:Never rule out other problems, just because it failed, and also remember we do not know the OP in person, and can not judge on:
a) his trustworthyness or
b) knowing the full story on what was said.Irrelevant, even if it was a hypothetical discussion the principles of law are correct
The manufacturers have inspected it and replaced it, one presumes they are the experts, and one presumes they would have said if they thought it wasn't faulty, therefore the dispute is nothing to do with the origin of the breakage, and is therefore, also irrelevant!I have broken things within the first month of usage, and it for sure wasn't faulty. In these days, everyone is trying to blame someone else for something, so it could very well be that it was actually caused by him, but he knows he can push it as faulty so as to get everything repaired free of charge.
Uh, this is quite a naive comment; they are duty bound to offer a refund and knowing the OP is not happy with the remedy offered they have had plenty of chances to make that offer. Quite honestly MM you may as well move on to another thread, you surely can't have any further red herrings left for this one! :roll:And also, just because a refund has not been offered, does not mean it is not available. of course a company is going to try to minimize losses to themselves, so it will not be the first option for them. The OP could have always asked for a refund, and if they refused, then it would be a different story, but calling Evans poo because they didn't offer a refund straight off the back is not really deserved IMO.
HAHAHAHAHAHA.
You guys really are quite a one sided bunch. Just like with insurance companies, retail companies try to weasel themselves out of any situation, and that is what they are trying to do here. Common business practice to try to minimise loses, so don't see where the red herring is here. :roll:
lets say you sell a bike, and the buyer notices a small mark on a part, and wants to get it fixed. Would you straight away offer a refund, having to deal with selling the bike again, at a loss as it has been used, or try to fix it the best you could and hope it suffices? I'm guessing you'll go the second option as it is cheaper one for you, and this is exactly what evans is doing. Don't say anything unethical in using refunds as the last options.In all my retail jobs i've had in the past, refunds were a last resort, everything else should be exhausted, and only in the case of fuming customers was a refund offered when not requested.
Must remember to keep an eye out for you in the classifieds section. Do you have an e-bay sellers name?0 -
Rolf F wrote:MountainMonster wrote:The frame is of satisfactory quality, it's just not a satisfactory color for the owner, which in terms of the SOGA, is completely irrelevant.. Find where it says "if buyer does not like color, he can throw a hissy fit and get his little buddies on bike radar to join his hissy fit and slate evans for offered bad service which is actually good service"
How about here:Where the seller sells goods in the course of a business, there is an implied term that the goods supplied under the contract are of satisfactory quality..
(2A)For the purposes of this Act, goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances..
(2B)For the purposes of this Act, the quality of goods includes their state and condition and the following (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—.
(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of the kind in question are commonly supplied,.
(b)appearance and finish,.
(c)freedom from minor defects,.
(d)safety, and.
(e)durability.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54
Or do you work for Evans?
How is the quality of paint? Looks brand spanking new to me, same as the finish. Just because it is not of the taste of the person does not make it of a lower quality. maybe in the customers mind he thinks it looks funny, but it does not actually lower the quality. The quality of appearance and finish deals with being supplied something with defects within the finish of the bike, which this bike is immaculate, just not the color he wants.
So, from that we gather the bike is now both fit for purpose, and of suffiicient quality, therefore giving the Op no course of legal action which will be in his favor. Thanks for the help .)0 -
Cornerblock wrote:MountainMonster wrote:alfablue wrote:MountainMonster wrote:Never rule out other problems, just because it failed, and also remember we do not know the OP in person, and can not judge on:
a) his trustworthyness or
b) knowing the full story on what was said.Irrelevant, even if it was a hypothetical discussion the principles of law are correct
The manufacturers have inspected it and replaced it, one presumes they are the experts, and one presumes they would have said if they thought it wasn't faulty, therefore the dispute is nothing to do with the origin of the breakage, and is therefore, also irrelevant!I have broken things within the first month of usage, and it for sure wasn't faulty. In these days, everyone is trying to blame someone else for something, so it could very well be that it was actually caused by him, but he knows he can push it as faulty so as to get everything repaired free of charge.
Uh, this is quite a naive comment; they are duty bound to offer a refund and knowing the OP is not happy with the remedy offered they have had plenty of chances to make that offer. Quite honestly MM you may as well move on to another thread, you surely can't have any further red herrings left for this one! :roll:And also, just because a refund has not been offered, does not mean it is not available. of course a company is going to try to minimize losses to themselves, so it will not be the first option for them. The OP could have always asked for a refund, and if they refused, then it would be a different story, but calling Evans poo because they didn't offer a refund straight off the back is not really deserved IMO.
HAHAHAHAHAHA.
You guys really are quite a one sided bunch. Just like with insurance companies, retail companies try to weasel themselves out of any situation, and that is what they are trying to do here. Common business practice to try to minimise loses, so don't see where the red herring is here. :roll:
lets say you sell a bike, and the buyer notices a small mark on a part, and wants to get it fixed. Would you straight away offer a refund, having to deal with selling the bike again, at a loss as it has been used, or try to fix it the best you could and hope it suffices? I'm guessing you'll go the second option as it is cheaper one for you, and this is exactly what evans is doing. Don't say anything unethical in using refunds as the last options.In all my retail jobs i've had in the past, refunds were a last resort, everything else should be exhausted, and only in the case of fuming customers was a refund offered when not requested.
Must remember to keep an eye out for you in the classifieds section. Do you have an e-bay sellers name?
Nope, don't sell on Ebay, and I live in Austria so it's pointless normally for me to sell on here.0 -
MountainMonster wrote:So, from that we gather the bike is now both fit for purpose, and of suffiicient quality, therefore giving the Op no course of legal action which will be in his favor. Thanks for the help .)
Where's the Pickard facepalm when you need it? Faster than a tent.......0 -
No way that anyone is going to get through to the guy here who is a retailer with a business degree (what a bloody joke that is) and whose business principles are to screw his customers as much and as often as he can get away with. His complete and abject ignorance of UK consumer law is demonstrated by the fact that he keeps referring the warranty and fails to understand that it is NOT a warranty issue. The waranty is utterly irrelevant and cannot over-ride consumer law.
Under the Sale of Goods Act, the failure of the frame is a breach of contract by Evans and they are legally compelled to offer a refdund or an equivalent replacement. They haven't offered a refund and the replacement is not of equivalent quality since the colour matching of the components is plainly a material aspect of quality (as evidenced by the fact that the manufacturer sees fit to colour match the two different models in this range in different ways). People have pointed out that colour can be material: eg, if you bought a white shirt and discovered when you got it home that the seam was unravelling, the manufacturer cannot satisfy his legal duty by offering you a purple one. Similarly, if a manufacturer offers a range of colours of kitchen appliance and you buy one in a colour to match your new kitchen, which then goes up in smoke, the manufacturer cannot force you to accept a different colour in settlement, because the colour is clearly a material aspect of the quality of the goods. But because of his stupidity and boneheadedness this guy cannot see that.0 -
Yeah your probably right. Trying to get refunds from Austria is tricky. :roll:0
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For example MM:
So there was a faulty door on my car black car, the car was was under warranty, but the car company didnt have a black door but had a white door... now you are saying that they can put that door on the car and they should not expect the customer to complain and to just accept it?
Now get some sleep MM!0 -
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merak wrote:No way that anyone is going to get through to the guy here who is a retailer with a business degree (what a bloody joke that is) and whose business principles are to screw his customers as much and as often as he can get away with. His complete and abject ignorance of UK consumer law is demonstrated by the fact that he keeps referring the warranty and fails to understand that it is NOT a warranty issue. The waranty is utterly irrelevant and cannot over-ride consumer law.
Under the Sale of Goods Act, the failure of the frame is a breach of contract by Evans and they are legally compelled to offer a refdund or an equivalent replacement. They haven't offered a refund and the replacement is not of equivalent quality since the colour matching of the components is plainly a material aspect of quality (as evidenced by the fact that the manufacturer sees fit to colour match the two different models in this range in different ways). People have pointed out that colour can be material: eg, if you bought a white shirt and discovered when you got it home that the seam was unravelling, the manufacturer cannot satisfy his legal duty by offering you a purple one. Similarly, if a manufacturer offers a range of colours of kitchen appliance and you buy one in a colour to match your new kitchen, which then goes up in smoke, the manufacturer cannot force you to accept a different colour in settlement, because the colour is clearly a material aspect of the quality of the goods. But because of his stupidity and boneheadedness this guy cannot see that.
You put it a lot better then I did 0 -
You are right, I don't know him. This makes me impartial in allegiance/opinion & unaffected either way as to the end result. I asked a question. I only asked for facts, which I thought pertinent due to the nature & location of the issues he was having (crack in seat tube & wheel/spoke issue).merak wrote:So, without knowing anything about him, according to you the OP is too porky to ride a road bike without breaking it and so it's really all his fault and he should take what he's offered. Some frames break due to faulty manufacture. Sheesh!
My point about the TDF still stands, if a bike based on the same geometry can be ridden to victory almost start to finish of the race then thats alot of proven R&D and abuse in a month. While this doesn't make then invulnerable it stands out to me that both the 'faults' are centred around one area through two heavy weight bearing components.mjl1982 wrote:@Hierotochan
Not that its any relevance [it definitely is], but I'm 6'4 and just under 16stone. Now if the bike was not the right one for me, then the guys at Evans shouldnt of reccommended the BMC SR02 or tell me that the 60cm frame was ideal for me.
So, not 'porky' (thanks for putting words in my mouth) but definitely bigger & heavier than the average tour rider.
You mention it's your first road bike, so again I can assume that you are still learning and perfecting basic bike handling technique.
@6'4" on a 60cm frame there will be alot of seat post showing if you have an average inside leg.
With that weight putting that much pressure through leverage on the end of the seatpost I think you'll find it's probably quite near where the crack developed.
While not a fault per-say, riding around London over speed-bumps and through pot-holes without the proper weight shifting & understanding of how the balance of a road bike's strength/weakness is affected by the angle of the force applied to it could have caused this through fatigue stress.
The problem being the lightweight components we demand have to compromise somewhere, for instance wheelsets having a maximum advised rider weight.
I think it's important to mention here I have a background in cycle design (albeit BMX) so have a fair understanding of frame tolerances and materials.
(I could tell you I'm an engineer, but you'd never believe me).
I think from the sound of it it's pretty clear that Evans have tried their best (using their considerable influence gained through 90 years of trading & complying with the law and satisfying many customers) to source you a replacement frame of the same Spec. (no matter what the colour) when in all likelihood stocks are very low @ the end of the season & BMC's warehouse is full of 2012 bikes ready to be distributed.
This is your first road bike and it's understandable that you are upset, and I am not taking sides.
My problem was that without a representative from Evans we only have one side of a story (with support/opposition/flames from forum members) with no balance.
This opened a floodgate of shop bashing & somewhere in the forum's rules I think you'll find that if you have a problem with something on your bike the proper method of complaint is to blame Wiggle
My post here serves only to give you some information/advice (I know, unusual in the Road Beginners forum ) Welcome to Hoogerland, Population: Heroes.
Danny Hart; How does he sit down with balls that big?0 -
Hierotochan wrote:My point about the TDF still stands, if a bike based on the same geometry can be ridden to victory almost start to finish of the race then thats alot of proven R&D and abuse in a month. While this doesn't make then invulnerable it stands out to me that both the 'faults' are centred around one area through two heavy weight bearing components.
And it is still an idiotic point. Cadels bike lasted 3 weeks on mostly decent roads and covered 3000 miles being rebuilt every day. Any company that would regard that as testing job done wouldn't be one I'd buy a bike from - my bikes have to suffer far harder lives than the tour bikes; much greater mileages, with much less rebuilding, on much worse roads. The tour is hardly an extensive test and I'm pretty sure BMC would laugh at you if you suggested to them that that was even a fraction of what they did to test the bikes (you'd like the Skoda advert they showed over here during the tour - they showed a Skoda being used as a tour car and it surviving manfully the abuse it got - so the message; buy a Skoda - it will last at least 3 weeks and 3 thousand miles.......). Moreover, most riders in the tour probably rode on one single bike and the tour features bikes from a high proportion of decent bike manufacturers. So you seem to be suggesting that bike frames don't break.......Hierotochan wrote:My post here serves only to give you some information/advice (I know, unusual in the Road Beginners forum
There is plenty of information/advice being given on the Road Beginners forum - and most that give it manage not to be pompous about it at the same time. Faster than a tent.......0 -
merak wrote:No way that anyone is going to get through to the guy here who is a retailer with a business degree (what a bloody joke that is) and whose business principles are to screw his customers as much and as often as he can get away with. His complete and abject ignorance of UK consumer law is demonstrated by the fact that he keeps referring the warranty and fails to understand that it is NOT a warranty issue. The waranty is utterly irrelevant and cannot over-ride consumer law.
Under the Sale of Goods Act, the failure of the frame is a breach of contract by Evans and they are legally compelled to offer a refdund or an equivalent replacement. They haven't offered a refund and the replacement is not of equivalent quality since the colour matching of the components is plainly a material aspect of quality (as evidenced by the fact that the manufacturer sees fit to colour match the two different models in this range in different ways). People have pointed out that colour can be material: eg, if you bought a white shirt and discovered when you got it home that the seam was unravelling, the manufacturer cannot satisfy his legal duty by offering you a purple one. Similarly, if a manufacturer offers a range of colours of kitchen appliance and you buy one in a colour to match your new kitchen, which then goes up in smoke, the manufacturer cannot force you to accept a different colour in settlement, because the colour is clearly a material aspect of the quality of the goods. But because of his stupidity and boneheadedness this guy cannot see that.
I'm not takling about the original frame break, i'm talking about the replacement frame that was supplied in a different color. All I am stating is that he has no legal chance of trying to get free parts to fit his color scheme. I am not takling in any way about the ORGINIAL break. Because there is no material difference with the new frame, it is the same material, same frame, just different color. There is nothing that can be done. Just because it is a different color does not make it a quality problem. Seems i'm not the boneheaded or stupid one if you people actually think I have been talking about the original frame break.0 -
I do see where MM's coming from... But I also think the reason we're going around in circles a little is because it is not clear cut, and the law is not black and white: judgement (literally) is involved.
I never new 'quality and appearance' were within the sale of goods act definitions, so I've learnt something reading this
To me, putting white calipers on a grey bike is a little like putting a white bonnet on a black car, and I think it's unacceptable... However, there's people out there that do such a thing (and not just taxis in some cities )
There are some facts here though.
1. The bike has been accepted as faulty by Evans.
2. They have replaced the frame, and it seems other options have not been offered, or have been withdrawn.
3. The frame they've replaced it with is of the same geometry and material as he had, but in a different colour.
4. BMC colour code their calipers and other accessories to match the frame.
I don't know the SOGA well enough, so I don't know if the repair can be rejected under "quality" terms, as the appearance is not what it should be. It would seem so to me though...
But I do get MM's point, and I do think ultimately it's not clear cut legally. I also think it's helpful for him to be playing devil's advocate on the thread!
mjl could spend money, time, effort and get absolutely nowhere. I'd probably draw the line after taking advice from the CAB and, possibly bunging 25 quid at the small claims court...
One thing is for sure: if I were in this position I wouldn't be buying from Evans again, and I'd be putting a thread up like this Synapse Alloy 105 / Rock Lobster Tig Team Sl0 -
Just seen the reply from MM at 7:36, and I think all this debate is about 1 thing: does colour affect 'quality' in terms of SOGA. MM thinks it doesn't. Others think it does.
If it were a car door we were talking about, it's an open and shut case (no pun intended): a different colour would not be acceptable.
But I don't think it's that black and white, despite 'finish and appearance' specifically being in the SOGA. It's a shade of grey (no pun intended )
So MM's got a point, as has the opponents... I'd probably side with the OP on this one, but it could end up with OP being unhappy if push comes to shove. Whatever, I still completely support pushing for restitution Synapse Alloy 105 / Rock Lobster Tig Team Sl0 -
The clear cut part of the is a good point, where both sides are right on this up to certain extents. My whole point with my posts has just been showing the people that this is not actually a case of Evans being ar5eoles, and it is more than likely not a legal case. At leas there are a few people on here who seem to understand the fact that just because the color is different does not mean the frame appearance or finish is defect.0
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True. I'd still say that the evans managers should ask themselves if they'd be happy with that as a replacement after spending 1300 quid. I suspect some would, but I suspect some wouldn't...Synapse Alloy 105 / Rock Lobster Tig Team Sl0
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I'm not bad mouthing Evans Cycles MM, I'm just letting you know whats going on with my situation with Evans.
You are right, its just my side of the story, but what can I do about that. The lady from customer service has been visiting the thread - lady told me yesterday.
I would love to hear their side of the story on here... perhaps then we would get some clarity on the matter.
Also, I think anyone who's reading this and was tempted to buy a BMC bike from Evans Cycles might now have second thoughts.
Hierotochan.... The bike is not discontinued, the colour coded bike in my size and in stock. Evans got a new delivery this week.0 -
I wouldn't and I'd be wanting my £1300 back. The fact that the frame's failed in 4 months would make me want a different bike anyway.
Reject the thing in writing and ask for a full refund.0 -
I think a point of confusion is perhaps that the OP bought a complete BIKE, not a frame. Under SOGA he is entitled to a replacement BIKE or a refund. A replacement bike would be correctly colour coded (even if the bike was a different colour), not that dreadful mish-mash he has now got. What they have done is repair the BIKE which is not the obligation owed to the OP (he can choose to accept it, which would be unwise, but he can have a refund or replacement BIKE).
Obviously it suits Evans to let the manufacturers replace the frame, it gets them off the hook. What they should have done (both legally and morally) is offer him a refund or replacement BIKE. It sounds like they did at first offer a replacement bike then withdrew the offer when the frame turned up. If Evans were smart they would have added appropriately coloured brakes to the new frame and asked if the OP would accept it, and if not, sell it on as a used bike whilst refunding the OP or replacing his BIKE.
If they offer a replacement (complete) bike but it is in a colour not of his liking then he should opt for the refund.
Evans need to wake up and smell the coffee, this sort of discussion will be read by a lot of potentially big spending customers, and I for one will never shop with a retailer that appears to ignore the law.0
