Cadel Evans ... Ferrari Link

The Kennington Kaiser

Really good blog by Robert Millar about why he thinks Evans beat the Schlecks. Good insight and no mention of doping. http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/robert ... k-brothers

dilemna

The Kennington Kaiser wrote:

Really good blog by Robert Millar about why he thinks Evans beat the Schlecks. Good insight and no mention of doping. http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/robert ... k-brothers

Thanks for the link KK. Good read. It was what I felt. Cadel just kept his cool. It was farcial when the Schlecks started complaining about riders bombing it down the descents ........ I think they forgot they were in a bike race.

ms_tree

What a nasty lot you are. If you are so cynical about things why do you bother to watch/follow?

dilemna

Ms Tree wrote:

What a nasty lot you are. If you are so cynical about things why do you bother to watch/follow?

Ehhh??

I am seeing a pram and toys on the ground around it .

Bronzie

Ms Tree wrote:

What a nasty lot you are. If you are so cynical about things why do you bother to watch/follow?

?

In the preceeding 4 pages, only 2 posters have openly stated they think Cadel is dirty

BilgeRat

gabriel959 wrote:

Wasn't Aldo Sassi the doctor for Francesco De Bonis (currently suspended for irregular blood values) and the entire Diquigiovann team back in 2009?

And what about Thomas Frei? :roll:

Just because you say you are anti-doping that means you are...

Look around and you will find the facts...

You're just making stuff up, obviously you don't bother with the "looking around" yourself apart from in your own imagination which seems to be particularly fervid.

dulldave

gabriel959 wrote:

[
That doesn't mean he does dope or he doesn't. I think you probably have more faith in Evans because he is an anglo native speaker maybe?

No that isn't it. There are plenty of those who I think are/were at it and other non English speakers I have a bit of faith in. I know what you mean about the omerta but I can't remember Evans being one of those who conveniently jumped all over Ricco to give themselves some anti-doping straight speaking credentials.

Also when you refer to people as 'the Puerto riders' you're not exactly obeying the omerta really.

jerry3571

If you took the time from when the Alps and Pyrenees were first climbed I'm sure the avaerage speeds were as slow as hell but that doesn't mean they weren't off thier faces on drugs. Cycling and drugs have always been bed partners. Evans is the fastest because all the quicker riders have been banned. That by definaition does not mean Evans is clean. You could say Sinkewitz has always been slower than Evans on the big Mountain stages but Sinkewitz had been banned. It's not logical to say that Evans is clean. All anyone can say is that he hasn't had a positive test yet just the same as LA which is no proof one way or the other.
If 8 riders in a top 10 of the GC of the Tour have been banned then I would say it was statisticly likely that Evans was a lucky boy in that year. Evans has won some of the biggest races going and with the amount of doping invloved in all classes of cycling then the top end must be riddled.
It's not a snipe at Evans it's just the state of Professional Cycling. Saying that Evans is clean is beleiving in fairytales.
Saying that he isn't linked to x,y or z doesn't mean Jack, it just means he hasn't been linked to specific people. He probably has his own people who are off the radar.
I could probably reel off a list of 40-50 Professional riders who have been caught in doping tests so lets take our Posters of Cuddles off our Bedroom walls and get a grip.

-Jerry

PS- My girlfriend has just berated me and is saying Evans is clean but she likes films with happy endings.

Wheelspinner

jerry3571 wrote:

... Evans is the fastest because all the quicker riders have been banned. That by definaition does not mean Evans is clean. You could say Sinkewitz has always been slower than Evans on the big Mountain stages but Sinkewitz had been banned. It's not logical to say that Evans is clean. All anyone can say is that he hasn't had a positive test yet just the same as LA which is no proof one way or the other.
If 8 riders in a top 10 of the GC of the Tour have been banned then I would say it was statisticly likely that Evans was a lucky boy in that year. Evans has won some of the biggest races going and with the amount of doping invloved in all classes of cycling then the top end must be riddled.
It's not a snipe at Evans it's just the state of Professional Cycling. Saying that Evans is clean is beleiving in fairytales.
Saying that he isn't linked to x,y or z doesn't mean Jack, it just means he hasn't been linked to specific people. He probably has his own people who are off the radar.
I could probably reel off a list of 40-50 Professional riders who have been caught in doping tests so lets take our Posters of Cuddles off our Bedroom walls and get a grip.

-Jerry

PS- My girlfriend has just berated me and is saying Evans is clean but she likes films with happy endings.

I recommend you read this:

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12611535

Then I recommend you do us all a favour and have your account here deleted.

jerry3571

I think I'm ok. Thanks for your concern.

I haven't said I know things as fact but I'm coming to conclusion by joining the many many dots and when you get juniors doping...well.. the game's up.
I think some people here have yet to pass through the looking glass and see things how they actually are rather than what they want.

-Thanks again,

-Jerry

mouth

jerry3571 wrote:

I haven't said I know things as fact but I'm coming to conclusion by joining the many many dots
-Jerry

Haven't seen any 'dots' as you put it to join regarding Evans. Whats your basis?

No_Ta_Doctor

jerry3571 wrote:

I think I'm ok. Thanks for your concern.

I haven't said I know things as fact but I'm coming to conclusion by joining the many many dots and when you get juniors doping...well.. the game's up.
I think some people here have yet to pass through the looking glass and see things how they actually are rather than what they want.

-Thanks again,

-Jerry

A natural degree of scepticism is healthy, and given the repeated drug busts over the years anyone hanging posters of riders on their bedroom wall is leaving themselves open to future disappointment.

But that said you have nothing more than "they're all at it" as an indication that Evans isn't clean - and there are strong indications that they aren't "all at it" any more, that there are clean riders, who are posting decent results and that those that are at it have had their advantage trimmed down.

Would I bet my house on Evans being clean? No.
Do I think he probably is? Yes.

jerry3571

I wonder how many top cyclists have to be caught to make people more realistic.
As I have said to another person here about going out and ride a hill between certain points- the start point is at the bottom of the hill and the finish at the top (get a hill of about a mile). Do the ride at a set heart rate and repeat a few times over a week to get an average time. Make a visit to your NHS Blood Doning lot and then repeat the test for the next week (leave the next test until the next day after "giving blood" otherwise you may pass out) . The difference will be very considerable. It's a good way to ruin your cycling season doing this experiment. The test will give you an idea on how much power is lost by losing a pint of blood so will give you an insight in to how much would be gained by adding a pint of blood.

I know a rider who has used an Oxygen Tent and improved his TT times from an hour for a 25 mile TT (good club rider) down to 52 minutes (this time would maybe get you in to the National TT Champs). To get from an average speed from 20mph to 25 mph, power has to double so this chap's improvement is massive.
To think that these kind of improvements can be made without any outside help is unreal.
Also, Steriod use enables riders to recover so they can ride a 3 week Tour without fading in the 3rd week, not many GC riders faded badly over this time.

The truth is that no one knows the big picture with Doping but Cycling's past record is very poor. Below are two examples of how drugs have enhanced human performance in another field; not that subtle really.





-Jerry

thomasmc

No tA Doctor wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

I think I'm ok. Thanks for your concern.

I haven't said I know things as fact but I'm coming to conclusion by joining the many many dots and when you get juniors doping...well.. the game's up.
I think some people here have yet to pass through the looking glass and see things how they actually are rather than what they want.

-Thanks again,

-Jerry

A natural degree of scepticism is healthy, and given the repeated drug busts over the years anyone hanging posters of riders on their bedroom wall is leaving themselves open to future disappointment.

But that said you have nothing more than "they're all at it" as an indication that Evans isn't clean - and there are strong indications that they aren't "all at it" any more, that there are clean riders, who are posting decent results and that those that are at it have had their advantage trimmed down.

Would I bet my house on Evans being clean? No.
Do I think he probably is? Yes.

Thats how I would look at it too

skylla

jerry3571 wrote:

I wonder how many top cyclists have to be caught to make people more realistic.
As I have said to another person here about going out and ride a hill between certain points- the start point is at the bottom of the hill and the finish at the top (get a hill of about a mile). Do the ride at a set heart rate and repeat a few times over a week to get an average time. Make a visit to your NHS Blood Doning lot and then repeat the test for the next week (leave the next test until the next day after "giving blood" otherwise you may pass out) . The difference will be very considerable. It's a good way to ruin your cycling season doing this experiment. The test will give you an idea on how much power is lost by losing a pint of blood so will give you an insight in to how much would be gained by adding a pint of blood.

I know a rider who has used an Oxygen Tent and improved his TT times from an hour for a 25 mile TT (good club rider) down to 52 minutes (this time would maybe get you in to the National TT Champs). To get from an average speed from 20mph to 25 mph, power has to double so this chap's improvement is massive.
To think that these kind of improvements can be made without any outside help is unreal.
Also, Steriod use enables riders to recover so they can ride a 3 week Tour without fading in the 3rd week, not many GC riders faded badly over this time.

The truth is that no one knows the big picture with Doping but Cycling's past record is very poor. Below are two examples of how drugs have enhanced human performance in another field; not that subtle really.

-Jerry

Rubbish. As it is you who mentioned 'fairy tales': it is a fairy tale to believe that a pint of stored blood would give you the same increase in performance as you would have lost when taking out a pint. In addition, don't get me started on "To think that these kind of improvements can be made without any outside help is unreal" because that statement
is so 'unreal' that it shows you are probably not aware of pro-cycling training regimes. As you seem to have the power of logic I leave it up to you to work it out.

Lastly, the two pictures you show have got absolutely nothing to do with 'enhanced performance' of pro-athletes, never mind endurance. Poor comparison.

andyrr

So, if this club TT rider was to add a pint of blood and uses an oxygen tent (perfectly legal I think except in Italy IIRC) then he'd probably do a sub-50 for a '25' having no trained any better than he used to ? Hmm, seems doubtful.
Maybe suggest he adds 2 pints of blood then and he'd be down to a 45 minute 25.

Donate pint of blood and you are below your natural level, below the level your body needs hence the performance drop-off. As that increases back up then the peformance returns to normal.
Suggesting that a massive gain is made by taking the rider's natural level and adding a pint to that and kind of explains how all the pros are so good is stretching a point.

dulldave

Jerry, you may think you're sounding very clever and we're all uninformed idiots but to us you appear pretty much the same.

Your attitude it that they are all at it and it's never going to change. So why bother? Why are you even on here? Don't you have something better to do that you actually believe in?

thegibdog

jerry3571 wrote:

I know a rider who has used an Oxygen Tent and improved his TT times from an hour for a 25 mile TT (good club rider) down to 52 minutes (this time would maybe get you in to the National TT Champs). To get from an average speed from 20mph to 25 mph, power has to double so this chap's improvement is massive.

According to some basic calculations on a power calculator to go from 20 to 25mph would be about an 80% increase in power all other things being equal. To go from 25mph to 28.85mph (an hour to 52 minutes for a 25mile TT) would be about a 50% increase.

Not that it has any bearing on Evans being clean or not though.

mz__jo

gabriel959 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

andyrr wrote:

IIRC Basso went to Sassi too, if Sassi didn't perform blood testing of the athletes he trained then he could not know what they did outwith his own involvement so if an athlete told him he was on bread and water then, unless Sassi could say otherwise then he went with that.

But he did test them, especially Basso. Sassi even does haemoglobin mass tests, which WADA don't use.

All of Basso's test results and training logs are freely available to anyone who wants to see them

Is that the same Basso who won the 2010 Giro with better times than in 2006? :roll: So why did he doped before then?!

So is Cadel, at 34, a guy that used to have a bad day or two in the past now more consistent than in his 20s, the oldest winner since WW2, pushing it almost every stage and part of the cleanest team in cycling history BMC, none the less.

The oldest winner - but only just. He is only 5 months older than Gino Bartali when he won in 1948. You learn a lot about how to manage your efforts in a GT when you get older. And there have been a reasonable number of gregarii (better word than domestique) in their mid-thirties.

Sjaak

mz__jo wrote:

.......
And there have been a reasonable number of gregarii (better word than domestique) in their mid-thirties.

As an aside, I am not familiar with this term, but why gregarii rather than domestiques? Surely, a team leader must be as gregarious as their 'dogsbodies', more commonly known as the domestiques?

shinyhelmut

[edit]Adjective
gregārius m (feminine gregāria, neuter gregārium); first/second declension
of the herd
common

Basically a gregario is an Italian domestique.

cougie

FWIW I think it probably was a fairly clean tour. I've seen no real evidence of Evans being a doper.

Its impossible to be a pro rider though and not have some people around you being linked to past doping.

Evans didnt do anything superhuman or awe inspiring unlike Riis, Pantani and Landis - to name but 3 dopers. So I'd hope he was clean.

ms_tree

dilemna wrote:

Ms Tree wrote:

What a nasty lot you are. If you are so cynical about things why do you bother to watch/follow?

Ehhh??

I am seeing a pram and toys on the ground around it .[/quot

No. Just stating my opinion.
(and I like Dennis am entitled to my opinion without being criticised)
So there!

cougie

But the vast majority of posters were with you MsTree if you'd read the thread ?

jerry3571

Rubbish. As it is you who mentioned 'fairy tales': it is a fairy tale to believe that a pint of stored blood would give you the same increase in performance as you would have lost when taking out a pint. In addition, don't get me started on "To think that these kind of improvements can be made without any outside help is unreal" because that statement
is so 'unreal' that it shows you are probably not aware of pro-cycling training regimes. As you seem to have the power of logic I leave it up to you to work it out.

Lastly, the two pictures you show have got absolutely nothing to do with 'enhanced performance' of pro-athletes, never mind endurance. Poor comparison

Ok, the guy I knew from my nearby cycling club with the Oxygen tent only increased his power by 68% only :shock: . I guess if you knew your eggs and bacon; this amount of power increase is massive. If a rider was to add microdosing EPO then this figure would be greater. I have had experience of giving blood in a cycling season and it is a disaster so to add blood to increase performance is a "no brainer".
I have also spent 10 days at Sierra Nevada, Spain 2,500m altitude, and seen the great increase in power by myself and my mate who was an elite rider who did a lot of Premier calendar racing.
Also, also with this power increase, if you take away the air resistance by going up a mountain then this power increase would bring greater advantages.
If altitude and microdosing and other treatments didn't work then milllions of pounds wouldn't have been spent in the past which have been seized.

A small point of a BMC soigneur being recently found with 195 doses of EPO, kind of adds a few extra "dots" to my lovely "picture" of the racing world.

I have been following cycling since 1988 and have always enjoyed the racing and accepted the doping as being there in the backround as an additional element. Doping has been constantly around Cycling since the 1890's so it is all part of the scenery. One of my first times where doping was apparent to me was Gert Jan Theuniesse being banned from the TDF and then after the mysterious PDM sickness situation in 1990 (personally very disappointed with that one).
A bit of light reading is to be found here-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_do ... in_cycling

I think if you like a bit of Johnny Cash then you'll like cycling. People do bad things but the regret is always there. I like all that.

A few photos of the ones that didn't get away-

RichN95.

jerry3571 wrote:

Ok, the guy I knew from my nearby cycling club with the Oxygen tent only increased his power by 68% only :shock: . I guess if you knew your eggs and bacon; this amount of power increase is massive. If a rider was to add microdosing EPO then this figure would be greater. I have had experience of giving blood in a cycling season and it is a disaster so to add blood to increase performance is a "no brainer".
I have also spent 10 days at Sierra Nevada, Spain 2,500m altitude, and seen the great increase in power by myself and my mate who was an elite rider who did a lot of Premier calendar racing.
Also, also with this power increase, if you take away the air resistance by going up a mountain then this power increase would bring greater advantages.
If altitude and microdosing and other treatments didn't work then milllions of pounds wouldn't have been spent in the past which have been seized.

The problem is Jerry, that you're denouncing people for believing in 'fairy tales' while expecting us to believe that your mate increased his power by 68,100%, it doesn't matter, just by using an oxygen tent.

You are expecting us to believe your own immensely superior powers from altitude training.

I suspect exaggeration. Your own fairy tales.

As to you signing off line: "If altitude and microdosing and other treatments didn't work then milllions of pounds wouldn't have been spent in the past which have been seized."
I would just like you to substitute homeopathy and astrology for altitude and microdosing and see if your statement still works. The validity of something isn't ratified by someone paying for it.

andyrr

I think that an increase of 68% purely from use of an oxygen tent sounds total mince.

I have heard zero from riders that have admitted to using these (and in fact all that it does is to mimic high-altitude training which many GT riders do) so if there really was that scale of gain then they'd all do it but they don't all do it and only for a week or 2 at a time with talk of it being a slight benefit for some but others seeing minimal gain.
68% increase in power in a Elite trained athlete is huuuge. At that either he'd be cleaning up in UK Premium races, assuming he was fairly competitive beforehand, or everyone else suddenly copied his actions or they'd all found an alternative wonder drug and kept in pace with him.
1 week he climbs Alpe d'Huez taking 100 minutes say, then post-tent, he can do it in under 50 minutes ?

Taking blood away thus going below your body's required level quite naturally has a negative effect. Adding more and more and more doesn't just adding more and more and more power ?!

Murr X

jerry3571 wrote:

Ok, the guy I knew from my nearby cycling club with the Oxygen tent only increased his power by 68% only :shock: . I guess if you knew your eggs and bacon; this amount of power increase is massive. If a rider was to add microdosing EPO then this figure would be greater. I have had experience of giving blood in a cycling season and it is a disaster so to add blood to increase performance is a "no brainer".
I have also spent 10 days at Sierra Nevada, Spain 2,500m altitude, and seen the great increase in power by myself and my mate who was an elite rider who did a lot of Premier calendar racing.
Also, also with this power increase, if you take away the air resistance by going up a mountain then this power increase would bring greater advantages.
If altitude and microdosing and other treatments didn't work then milllions of pounds wouldn't have been spent in the past which have been seized.

Lol. Keep it coming please!

With a 68% increase in power (at app FTP) any elite rider could easily, easily win the TDF. Heck if I could have added 68% at my best then I could have won 3 classics on the same day!

I don't know if you are trying to be serious in getting people to believe you or not (I suspect you are) but it is nothing close to the truth, not by a very long way.


MurrX

samiam

A 68% increase in a riders power output would take a good club rider to a stage winner in the tour de france.

So no, your mate didn't get a 68% boost.

mouth

People seem to have overlooked the the advances in sports science over the last few years. Who'd heard of interval training ten years ago? It possible now for the experts to be able to predict exactly when an athlete will 'peak' and at what wattage they are recovering and riding below the point they need to to stay competitive.

Technology: In the last 20 years i'd guess the weight of a TdF bike has halved or at least gone down by a third.

Recovery/personal surroundings: The benefits of massage have been realised in the last few years, and we all understand that proper sleep in a proper and familiar bed will make a world of difference. Many athletes and sportsmen literally transport a bed with them rather than sleeping on some shitty travelodge flea pit. Don't overlook these things and become the accuser rather than just giving someone the benefit of the doubt. I know that cyclings reasonably recent history is flawed and cast with aspersions but surely the current crop deserve a chance to prove themselves and that they are clean.

One competitor this year tested for what can be used as a masking agent and wasn't even suspended, His team withdrew him voluntarily.

Jerry, since you are a cyclist, I put it to you that you must be doping along with the rest of your club, and everybody else on this forum. You know what, today I did my longest ride, almost doubling my previous best. Damn, I must call my 'pharmacist' and re-stock.........