Cadel Evans ... Ferrari Link

BilgeRat

gabriel959 wrote:

Others haven't got such great opinions of the late Mr Sassi am afraid.

More fool them then.

dave_1

BilgeRat wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

Others haven't got such great opinions of the late Mr Sassi am afraid.

More fool them then.

Indeed! If Evans is on drugs, then why is he 5 minutes slower up mountains than the doped guys, and clocking same ascent times as 2005, why no +, why has nobody from within his teams made allegations, why was he not caught up in Telekom doping when Sinkewtiz named them all, why the steady progress, why the immediate display of his grand tour abilities in his first grand tour-02 Giro. The answer is cause he is a good cyclist, always was and is probably clean.

dave_1

BilgeRat wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

Others haven't got such great opinions of the late Mr Sassi am afraid.

More fool them then.

Indeed! If Evans is on drugs, then why is he 5 minutes slower up mountains than the doped guys, and clocking same ascent times as 2005, why no +, why has nobody from within his teams made allegations, why was he not caught up in Telekom doping when Sinkewtiz named them all, why the steady progress, why the immediate display of his grand tour abilities in his first grand tour-02 Giro. The answer is cause he is a good cyclist, always was and is probably clean.

emadden

Road Ace wrote:

Cadel is clean.

How can a rock hard aussie with a dog called cuddles cheat!

I dont know, but isnt Cadel's dog is called "Molly"?

FJS

dennisn wrote:

Only pointing out that "I have a friend who knows a guy...." is not what you would call information of any value.

No need for any of that. Riders express themselves in the media, even about issues like this. You won't hear many of them make accusations about who is dodgy, but they can be quite open about who they consider clean. The Boonen remarks on Evans are an example. Of course it helps to be able to read/understand other languages than English...

moray_gub

LangerDan wrote:

dennisn wrote:

You should know by how that anyone out there can have any opinion of anyone. I'm just making sure that what people say is what I think it is. Second and third and possibly even forth hand. You know, "I have a friend who knows a guy that once met a pro racer". That kind of thing.

I agree than anyone can have, and is entitled, to an opinion. The problem, Dennis, is that you don't actually seem to have an opinion - you take a diametrically opposed view purely for the sake of it, even it means a complete volte face from a position you might have taken only a short while beforehand.

Its all a bit Argument Clinic

He does have a point though with regard to the "i know a guy who knows a guy " line, your taking.

bearfraser

Surely if cadel was a Doper some of his blood/urine tests would have shown a positive test , using the fact that that he won the TdF at 34 must mean he is a doper is as bad as saying Cav. must be a doper because he is so fast.

LangerDan

Moray Gub wrote:

He does have a point though with regard to the "i know a guy who knows a guy " line, your taking.

Fine,but I never claimed that the line I was taking was for anyone other than me. I personally value that particular rider's judgement in these matters, which is why I wrote the "it will do me" bit.

gabriel959

BilgeRat wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

Others haven't got such great opinions of the late Mr Sassi am afraid.

More fool them then.

Why?

Don't you forget that Sassi was there when Moser broke the hour record. The born of "cycling" and all!

RichN95.

gabriel959 wrote:

BilgeRat wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

Others haven't got such great opinions of the late Mr Sassi am afraid.

More fool them then.

Why?

Don't you forget that Sassi was there when Moser broke the hour record. The born of "cycling" and all!

That was nearly 30 years ago (and wasn't banned at the time either) when he was a student. People probably judge him on his actions since.

gabriel959

RichN95 wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

BilgeRat wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

Others haven't got such great opinions of the late Mr Sassi am afraid.

More fool them then.

Why?

Don't you forget that Sassi was there when Moser broke the hour record. The born of "cycling" and all!

That was nearly 30 years ago (and wasn't banned at the time either) when he was a student. People probably judge him on his actions since.

Of course he wasn't. I tend to judge the whole package, like last years Giro d'Italia.

Evans is 34 not 26 too. He shouldn't be performing as well as when he was 26, if he was riding clean.

Bronzie

bearfraser wrote:

Surely if cadel was a Doper some of his blood/urine tests would have shown a positive test

Whilst testing is getting better (target testing athletes as a result of anomalies in their biological passport for instance), the tests are not fool proof or watertight. Indeed some riders have gone on record as saying that the tests are fairly easy to get round.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/3948/ ... ction.aspx

dave_1

gabriel959 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

BilgeRat wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

Others haven't got such great opinions of the late Mr Sassi am afraid.

More fool them then.

Why?

Don't you forget that Sassi was there when Moser broke the hour record. The born of "cycling" and all!

That was nearly 30 years ago (and wasn't banned at the time either) when he was a student. People probably judge him on his actions since.

Of course he wasn't. I tend to judge the whole package, like last years Giro d'Italia.

Evans is 34 not 26 too. He shouldn't be performing as well as when he was 26, if he was riding clean.

he only started doing grand tours at 25, so how does it follow that he peaks as a grand tour racer at 26 when he only started pro road/grand tour racing at 25. Most will agree it takes some years to adapt..build of strength, endurance and large bunch racing. Also, keep in mind the racing has proven to be slower this year than in mid 2000s, so he would perhaps benefit from that as a clean rider...therefore he rides well at 34.

richard wants a baum

If we take your point that you cant perform better at 34 than when your 26 (which i dont, but for argument sake). You have made the error in believing that the playing field is the same at 34 as it was at 26. I think we can all agree that the peloton has cleaned up its act snice the late 90's and early 00's.

rick_chasey

gabriel959 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

BilgeRat wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

Others haven't got such great opinions of the late Mr Sassi am afraid.

More fool them then.

Why?

Don't you forget that Sassi was there when Moser broke the hour record. The born of "cycling" and all!

That was nearly 30 years ago (and wasn't banned at the time either) when he was a student. People probably judge him on his actions since.

Of course he wasn't. I tend to judge the whole package, like last years Giro d'Italia.

Evans is 34 not 26 too. He shouldn't be performing as well as when he was 26, if he was riding clean.

From the few times I have seen for the ascents of the big mountains, Evans doesn't appear to be climbing them any quicker.

BilgeRat

gabriel959 wrote:

BilgeRat wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

Others haven't got such great opinions of the late Mr Sassi am afraid.

More fool them then.

Why?

Don't you forget that Sassi was there when Moser broke the hour record. The born of "cycling" and all!

You'll have to do a lot better than that. Anyway Sassi was quite open about Moser being blood doped and his own role at the time.

Sirius631

gabriel959 wrote:

Evans is 34 not 26 too. He shouldn't be performing as well as when he was 26, if he was riding clean.

I'm 43 and riding better than when I was 26, and I don't have so much as an asprin in the house. Having said that, I'm still regularly beaten by guys into their late 50's. 34 is no age for a grand tour GC contender. In fact the younger winners tended to burn out and have shorter careers, or just not achieve the same level.

Not only do people mature physically at different rate but stamina improves for much longer than a professional career would last, its just speed, overnight recovery and the rate of recouperation from injury that may drop off, thus leading pros to hang up their wheels.

Sirius631

Bronzie wrote:

bearfraser wrote:

Surely if cadel was a Doper some of his blood/urine tests would have shown a positive test

Whilst testing is getting better (target testing athletes as a result of anomalies in their biological passport for instance), the tests are not fool proof or watertight. Indeed some riders have gone on record as saying that the tests are fairly easy to get round.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/3948/ ... ction.aspx

The fact that he was caught says that riders are wrong to think that they can get away with it. Yes, it may be harder to detect, but if there is any suspicion about any rider the anti-doping authorities will up their testing hit rate and either upset the rider's drug routine or catch them at it.

gabriel959

BilgeRat wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

BilgeRat wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

Others haven't got such great opinions of the late Mr Sassi am afraid.

More fool them then.

Why?

Don't you forget that Sassi was there when Moser broke the hour record. The born of "cycling" and all!

You'll have to do a lot better than that. Anyway Sassi was quite open about Moser being blood doped and his own role at the time.

Wasn't Aldo Sassi the doctor for Francesco De Bonis (currently suspended for irregular blood values) and the entire Diquigiovann team back in 2009?

And what about Thomas Frei? :roll:

Just because you say you are anti-doping that means you are...

Look around and you will find the facts...

Sirius631

BilgeRat wrote:

You'll have to do a lot better than that. Anyway Sassi was quite open about Moser being blood doped and his own role at the time.

Things change, regulations change, opinions change. Aldo Sassi was regarded, by the cycling media, as one of the most vociferous anti-doping coaches up until his passing. I think they are more clued up on the facts than any of us.

If we're going to apply today's regulations retrospectively we should strip the entire US 1984 Olympic cycling squad of their medals. That ain't going to happen.

OffTheBackAdam

If I'd won the TdF, I'd get a Ferrari too!

Bronzie

Sirius631 wrote:

Bronzie wrote:

bearfraser wrote:

Surely if cadel was a Doper some of his blood/urine tests would have shown a positive test

Whilst testing is getting better (target testing athletes as a result of anomalies in their biological passport for instance), the tests are not fool proof or watertight. Indeed some riders have gone on record as saying that the tests are fairly easy to get round.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/3948/ ... ction.aspx

The fact that he was caught says that riders are wrong to think that they can get away with it. Yes, it may be harder to detect, but if there is any suspicion about any rider the anti-doping authorities will up their testing hit rate and either upset the rider's drug routine or catch them at it.

Yet he admitted to using EPO for 2 years before getting caught. No idea how many tests he had and passed in that period of time, but it shows that it is possible to avoid getting caught with a bit of knowledge and some luck. He got unlucky (or was target tested).

RichN95.

gabriel959 wrote:

Wasn't Aldo Sassi the doctor for Francesco De Bonis (currently suspended for irregular blood values) and the entire Diquigiovann team back in 2009?

And what about Thomas Frei? :roll:

Just because you say you are anti-doping that means you are...

Look around and you will find the facts...

OK, I've looked around and found the facts.

Fact 1: Diquigiovanni were reported to have used the Mapei institute to do some internal dope testing. Sassi wasn't their doctor or DeBonis's coach

Fact 2: Frei had nothing to do with Sassi until after he was suspended

Fact 3: There's still a couple of millimetre's left of the bottom of your barrel, so feel free to keep scraping.

andyrr

Sassi was, I believe, not a doctor but a trainer. Ferrari seems/ed to be someone who formulated the whole thing, training AND the accompanying medical aspects.
IIRC Basso went to Sassi too, if Sassi didn't perform blood testing of the athletes he trained then he could not know what they did outwith his own involvement so if an athlete told him he was on bread and water then, unless Sassi could say otherwise then he went with that.
Semeed Sassi was well aware of what some riders did but did not provide any encouragement for those that doped.

RichN95.

andyrr wrote:

IIRC Basso went to Sassi too, if Sassi didn't perform blood testing of the athletes he trained then he could not know what they did outwith his own involvement so if an athlete told him he was on bread and water then, unless Sassi could say otherwise then he went with that.

But he did test them, especially Basso. Sassi even does haemoglobin mass tests, which WADA don't use.

All of Basso's test results and training logs are freely available to anyone who wants to see them

gabriel959

RichN95 wrote:

andyrr wrote:

IIRC Basso went to Sassi too, if Sassi didn't perform blood testing of the athletes he trained then he could not know what they did outwith his own involvement so if an athlete told him he was on bread and water then, unless Sassi could say otherwise then he went with that.

But he did test them, especially Basso. Sassi even does haemoglobin mass tests, which WADA don't use.

All of Basso's test results and training logs are freely available to anyone who wants to see them

Is that the same Basso who won the 2010 Giro with better times than in 2006? :roll: So why did he doped before then?!

So is Cadel, at 34, a guy that used to have a bad day or two in the past now more consistent than in his 20s, the oldest winner since WW2, pushing it almost every stage and part of the cleanest team in cycling history BMC, none the less.

dulldave

I'm not sure exactly what Evans is meant to do to convince you guys he's clean. I'm more cynical than the average cycling fan but have more faith in Evans than about any other GC rider.

Evans is quite consistent in being tight lipped on the subject even when he was the one getting pumped by Valverde et al. You often got the impression he wanted to say something but thought the better of it.

He won a stage that suited him, limited his losses in the mountains and did a good time trial. It's not like he just rode away from everyone at will.

gabriel959

dulldave wrote:

I'm not sure exactly what Evans is meant to do to convince you guys he's clean. I'm more cynical than the average cycling fan but have more faith in Evans than about any other GC rider.

Evans is quite consistent in being tight lipped on the subject even when he was the one getting pumped by Valverde et al. You often got the impression he wanted to say something but thought the better of it.

He won a stage that suited him, limited his losses in the mountains and did a good time trial. It's not like he just rode away from everyone at will.

Omerta?

That doesn't mean he does dope or he doesn't. I think you probably have more faith in Evans because he is an anglo native speaker maybe?

The fact that BMC are a dirty old team doesn't help either.

RichN95.

gabriel959 wrote:

Is that the same Basso who won the 2010 Giro with better times than in 2006? :roll: So why did he doped before then?!

Another one of your 'facts' that his actually wrong.

Basso's Mortirolo times:

2006: 44.32
2010: 46.20

dave_1

richard wants a baum wrote:

If we take your point that you cant perform better at 34 than when your 26 (which i dont, but for argument sake). You have made the error in believing that the playing field is the same at 34 as it was at 26. I think we can all agree that the peloton has cleaned up its act snice the late 90's and early 00's.

exactly..the doping problem is being cleared up, races slow down and a rider develops. Evans is relatively under raced for 34..2003-04 he broke collar bones and has no grand tour participations..so it's his 8th year of grand tours IMO..which is different from say Indurain, who was on double that number by 32 years old. It isn't only age that slows a rider, but can they summon up the will to push on with that regime year after year...everyone burns out and loses that desire eventually..Evans is on par with a 30 year old who turned pro at 22.

not one allegation, not one investigation has involved Evans, never mind the pile of other evidence he is clean, I am very happy Evans won the TDF