Is Cav the UK's greatest athlete?

rick_chasey

BigMat wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

CB - in essence you've confirmed my point. I'm *only* talking about the SPOTY award here.

If he was as good as Hushovd then he would damn' well deserve the title - he stands above all other sprinters, but that's it - that's the one trick I am referring to.

I don't get the Hushovd love in really. The guy isn't the best at anything. Great rider yes, but he's not on the same level as Gilbert, Cancellara, Cavendish and Contador.

*sigh*

There was a time when Boonen would be in that group.

tailwindhome

^

For those who don't frequent the Pro Race Forum..... Rick *hearts* Tom

suzyb

iPete wrote:

suzyb wrote:

I kind of agree with Wallace. At least until we see Cav regularly win sprints without his team. Him winning stages is made possible by his team giving him a great lead out. A climber climbing a mountain has to do it pretty much by themselves (even though their team will lead them to the mountain).

Although since I don't really understand how team mates riding alongside help in the mountains I could be completely wrong.

What TFD were you watching :?:

I did say regularly. I know he can win sprints without his team or with a cut down/less than perfect train (as this years tour proved). But would he win as much on a team who are dedicated to keeping their GC contender out of trouble and only have one or two guys to help him. Would he be able to latch onto any wheel and still pull out the perfect sprint.

He is a fast sprinter so the answer may very well be yes. Perhaps we'll find out next year

Clever Pun

why would a sprinter of that caliber/standing join a team that only cares about the GC?

rick_chasey

Clever Pun wrote:

why would a sprinter of that caliber/standing join a team that only cares about the GC?

Because they'll stop caring about GC?

tailwindhome

Clever Pun wrote:

why would a sprinter of that caliber/standing join a team that only cares about the GC?

why would a team who only care about GC pay for a world class sprinter?



Also this 'one trick pony' business is very British.

rick_chasey

TailWindHome wrote:

Also this 'one trick pony' business is very British.

it's typical of English speaking teams and riders.

It's successful enough that it gets copied.

tailwindhome

Rick Chasey wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Also this 'one trick pony' business is very British.

it's typical of English speaking teams and riders.

It's successful enough that it gets copied.

I'm thinking more of the British tendancy to 'knock' rather than to 'appreciate'

rick_chasey

TailWindHome wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Also this 'one trick pony' business is very British.

it's typical of English speaking teams and riders.

It's successful enough that it gets copied.

I'm thinking more of the British tendancy to 'knock' rather than to 'appreciate'

Ah, I thought you meant the trend to put everything on a few key races, and damn anything else.

Butterd2

BigMat wrote:

I don't get the Hushovd love in really. The guy isn't the best at anything. Great rider yes, but he's not on the same level as Gilbert, Cancellara, Cavendish and Contador.

But he is possibly the closest thing to a bastard love child of the 4 of them, he is a puncheur, can time trial, sprint and proved on the Aubisque that he can climb occasionally too.

(although Eddy Boss is starting to pretty handy also.)

scullyman

Just a small one on this debate... I'm no expert on all sports so my frame of reference is limited. However, there are two outstanding UK athletes that seem to be in a league of their own.

1. Chrissy Wellington, as mentioned before.

2. Ben Ainslie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Ainslie), almost certainly the best dinghy sailor who's ever lived. 3 Olympic golds (in different Olympics) and likely to win his 4th this time round.

Yes, personal views, but worth adding to the mix.

rick_chasey

Not Redgrave?

suzyb

Clever Pun wrote:

why would a sprinter of that caliber/standing join a team that only cares about the GC?

I agree.

Which is why I don't understand all this speculation about Cav joining Sky.

tailwindhome

suzyb wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

why would a sprinter of that caliber/standing join a team that only cares about the GC?

I agree.

Which is why I don't understand all this speculation about Cav joining Sky.

Dunno

I would speculate that the Olympic Road Race in London 2012 is a big target for GB, Sky and Cav

But I dunno

greg66_tri_v2.0

BigMat wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

CB - in essence you've confirmed my point. I'm *only* talking about the SPOTY award here.

If he was as good as Hushovd then he would damn' well deserve the title - he stands above all other sprinters, but that's it - that's the one trick I am referring to.

I don't get the Hushovd love in really. The guy isn't the best at anything. Great rider yes, but he's not on the same level as Gilbert, Cancellara, Cavendish and Contador.

He's got courage by the bucket load and humility to match. He knows that he can't match Cav in the sprints any more, so rather than bash his head against that wall, he reinvented himself as a more rounded rider. Seeing him wearing the WC jersey, riding in a breakaway to win stages *and* riding as a lead out man really said it all for me. The day he and Moncoutie chased down Jeremy Roy, you could see he is the size of the two of them glued together. To haul himself over climbs in a breakaway is v impressive, IMO.

greg66_tri_v2.0

suzyb wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

why would a sprinter of that caliber/standing join a team that only cares about the GC?

I agree.

Which is why I don't understand all this speculation about Cav joining Sky.

He's going to Sky, mark my words.

The wisdom of that move, from Sky's POV or his, is beyond me though.

jonny_trousers

CyclingBantam wrote:

Kieran_Burns wrote:

As far as I can see: Cav is a one trick pony. He is blazingly fast over a short distance and requires a lead out train to get him there. No other sprinter has this advantage and he makes massive use of it.

He can, when isolated, use others to lead himself out; but ultimately he is only capable of that one blazing short sprint.

He was outside the elimination time for TWO stages this year and it was only due to a large number of other riders that he stayed in.

Please note that I am not denigrating him in any way: his reputation stands up for close scrutiny but if you want to stand above the others, you need more than one short lived ability to do so.

As above - if he starts getting higher placings in he TdF then I think he should deserve better recognition.

Going by that argument though, what can Andy Schleck do? He can climb in the high mountains. He can't do anything else at all.

Cav is a specialist and whilst I accept he isn't the greatest cyclist in the world (Hushovd is) I think he is possibly/probably the greatest sprinter ever. Sure he uses his leadout train but he has shown he can do without it if needed but if it is there, why on earth wouldn't he make most use of it.

I don't believe he doesn need anything else to stand above the others. He will go down in history as one of the great sprinters of all time, even if he hangs up his wheels tomorrow.

You can never compare specialists against each other as there is no common ground for comparison.

Great post, totally agree, no need for me to spend time adding more. Thank you!

Canny Jock

On the likelihood of Cav winning spoty, I think it's unlikely any British road cyclist will win unless they win the TdF, or possibly do lots of good stuff including winning the world champs or Olympic road race.

I think Wiggins would have had a fair shot if he had won, and Cav is a possibility in the future if he can carry on performing in the TdF and win one of the above.

t4tomo

Usain Bolt is a one trick pony too - all he does is run fast. I gues he can also run fast with his shoes untied.

Cav is the best sprint cyclist there has ever been. I think that's pretty indisputable.

Yes GC winners will probably get more plaudits that green jersey winners, but the way Cav won the green jersey sets him apart. Compare him with say Indurain who in his day was acclaimed as the worlds best cyclist - all he did was time trial exceedingly well and managed to hang on in the mountains through absolute defensive riding. I'd rate Cav head and shoulders above Indurain as a "cyclist" - however that is defined.

I doubt he'll win SPOTY unless he wins Olympic golds, and even then there will be other Olympic gold medal winners that the general public "get" more.

I'm sure he'll join Sky. He has no real bond with HTC management as they didn't up his contract when he went from being OK to world class. (he loves his team mates I suspect, but not the management) Also there aren't that many teams that will be able to afford his wage demands.

Sky will probably bring Renshaw with him. Cav will win just as many stages in that set up. On a mountain stage he'll just bumble on at the back of the bus as usual, he won't have quite as big a lead out train as at HTC due to the need to have some climbers in the team for Wiggo, but he's capable of winning sprints on his own, and sky's current leadout / ability to chase back breakaways is none too shabby anyway. Add Renshaw to the mix and it will be up with what he has at HTC.

Nor will having Cav in the team detract from Wiggo I don't think. It will take some pressure off for a start, plus on sprint days all WIggo has to do is be kept in the peleton whilst the team ride for Cav in the last 5km.

Whether there is room for such as Greg Henderson, with Cav, Swift, Bosun-Hagen on the squad is another question, but I'm sure Cav will be there next year.

tailwindhome

t4tomo wrote:

I'd rate Cav head and shoulders above Indurain as a "cyclist" - however that is defined.

Hmmm

Let's define cyclist as "Who can ride the furthest in an hour?"

Comparing Indurain to Cav is like comparing Gebrselassie to Bolt

First.Aspect

suzyb wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

why would a sprinter of that caliber/standing join a team that only cares about the GC?

I agree.

Which is why I don't understand all this speculation about Cav joining Sky.

bigmat

TailWindHome wrote:

t4tomo wrote:

I'd rate Cav head and shoulders above Indurain as a "cyclist" - however that is defined.

Hmmm

Let's define cyclist as "Who can ride the furthest in an hour?"

Comparing Indurain to Cav is like comparing Gebrselassie to Bolt

5 x tour de france, 2 x giro / tour double, Olympic gold medal, hour record, several world champs podium finishes, San Sebastian classic, oh yeah Cav is head and shoulders above that paltry CV... :roll:

greg66_tri_v2.0

t4tomo wrote:

Nor will having Cav in the team detract from Wiggo I don't think. It will take some pressure off for a start, plus on sprint days all WIggo has to do is be kept in the peloton whilst the team ride for Cav in the last 5km.

I think it is pretty difficult to build a team that can support both a GC contender and a green jersey contender.

Wallace1492

t4tomo wrote:

Usain Bolt is a one trick pony too - all he does is run fast. I gues he can also run fast with his shoes untied.

Cav is the best sprint cyclist there has ever been. I think that's pretty indisputable.

Yes GC winners will probably get more plaudits that green jersey winners, but the way Cav won the green jersey sets him apart. Compare him with say Indurain who in his day was acclaimed as the worlds best cyclist - all he did was time trial exceedingly well and managed to hang on in the mountains through absolute defensive riding. I'd rate Cav head and shoulders above Indurain as a "cyclist" - however that is defined.

I doubt he'll win SPOTY unless he wins Olympic golds, and even then there will be other Olympic gold medal winners that the general public "get" more.

I'm sure he'll join Sky. He has no real bond with HTC management as they didn't up his contract when he went from being OK to world class. (he loves his team mates I suspect, but not the management) Also there aren't that many teams that will be able to afford his wage demands.

Sky will probably bring Renshaw with him. Cav will win just as many stages in that set up. On a mountain stage he'll just bumble on at the back of the bus as usual, he won't have quite as big a lead out train as at HTC due to the need to have some climbers in the team for Wiggo, but he's capable of winning sprints on his own, and sky's current leadout / ability to chase back breakaways is none too shabby anyway. Add Renshaw to the mix and it will be up with what he has at HTC.

Nor will having Cav in the team detract from Wiggo I don't think. It will take some pressure off for a start, plus on sprint days all WIggo has to do is be kept in the peloton whilst the team ride for Cav in the last 5km.

Whether there is room for such as Greg Henderson, with Cav, Swift, Bosun-Hagen on the squad is another question, but I'm sure Cav will be there next year.

Cav is superb sprinter - absolutely, best ever - perhaps. But lets stay with reality when comparing him to Big Mig. You cannot say that winning a lower ranked Jersey is better than winning the top award.... no matter how it's done. Cav will always be a sprinter, and never win the big award. I Still think Robert Millar's efforts in the TdF are better than Cav. However, as said before, this is pretty personal, and plenty will go the other way.

tailwindhome

Cav. He's good.

But he's no Sean Kelly

jonginge

TailWindHome wrote:

Cav. He's good.

But he's no Sean Kelly

Well, yes, certaintly

t4tomo

Yes of course Big Mig achieved a lot more that Cav can hope to achieve in the cycling world and yes the GC is rightly a "more respected" win than a green jersey or equivalent.

But that still doesn't escape the fact that Big Mig was boring and a pretty much one trick pony - his ability to time trial (OK & have low heart beat and a massive oxygen carrying capacity) he never attacked his rivals to win his jerseys like Pantani did. He just hung on like a limpet whizzed off in the TT.

Cav is much more exciting to watch than that.

tailwindhome

t4tomo wrote:

he never attacked his rivals to win his jerseys like Pantani did.

Yes, well, Hmmmmm.



Cav never attacks either......

bigmat

t4tomo wrote:

Yes of course Big Mig achieved a lot more that Cav can hope to achieve in the cycling world and yes the GC is rightly a "more respected" win than a green jersey or equivalent.

But that still doesn't escape the fact that Big Mig was boring and a pretty much one trick pony - his ability to time trial (OK & have low heart beat and a massive oxygen carrying capacity) he never attacked his rivals to win his jerseys like Pantani did. He just hung on like a limpet whizzed off in the TT.

Cav is much more exciting to watch than that.

Just not true, he attacked and won mountain stages in his earlier tours. When he was in his tour winning period, he didn't attack per se on the big climbs but he put in a massive stint on the front and shed pretty much everybody else out of the back. OK, no Pantani, but certainly not "hanging like a limpet". He's the classic "diesel engine", lacked a killer burst of speed, but was a far better climber than people give him credit for. hCeck out some of the youtube footage, there's one stage in particular where he chased down Robert Millar (stage was won by an Italian in the end - Conti?) and the pace he forces uphill is unbelievable, shelling top riders out of the back like nobody's business. That's one trick, time trials were another, hour record on the boards was a third, his attack in the Ardennes in 1995 was a fourth...

kelsen

[troll] well, it WAS a lot easier to win stuff during the drug-ridden days [/troll]