Is Cav the UK's greatest athlete?

jedster

Cav would have a chance of SPOTY next year if he combines another green jersey with olympic gold medals. Cycling is not a popular enough sport in the UK without some Olympic medals, not when there are other strong candidates. Who were the other contenders when Tom Simpson won, doubt it was a vintage year.

Our greatest athelete? Could be - he is the most dominant sportsman in a really athletic sport. DIfficult to compare though because you need to consider how strong the competition is. I always tend to feel that track athletics is the most competitive given that it is one sport than almost everyone in the world has a crack at. I think Seb Coe is our greteast ever athelete. I'm a bit cautious about decathlon/heptathlon because I have the impression that its something you pick up if you are not going to win any of the individual medals (and because the technical coaching/equipment/facilities required seems to rule out a lot of developing world participation - its very European//US dominated - if you win 100m or 800m you are beating the World).

suzyb

TailWindHome wrote:

suzyb wrote:

Hence why I don't believe any road cyclist will ever win SPOTY.

I do hope I am proven wrong someday though.

Tom Simpson was a road cyclist

Hence why I don't believe any road cyclist will ever win SPOTY again.

Better?

edhornby

didn't Tommy Simpson win in 65 when he was world road race champ? I could be wrong but wasn't this the same year that Henry Cooper floored ali yet lost...

just looked at wiki - in 1965 the second place was Jim Clark

in 1967 the second place was given to Beryl Burton !!!

tailwindhome

From Wikipedia - the BBC Sportsperson of the Year is

Awarded to the sportsperson "whose actions have most captured the public's imagination"

"Did Cavendish win the Tour De France?"

"No he won the Green Jersey."

"What does that mean?"

"He accumulated the most points over the 22 stages."

"So didn't win the Tour then?"

"No, he won the Green Jersey, and 5 stages"

"But he didn't win the Tour?"

"No he came 130 something"

"Oh!"

walkingbootweather

TailWindHome wrote:

From Wikipedia - the BBC Sportsperson of the Year is

Awarded to the sportsperson "whose actions have most captured the public's imagination"

"Did Cavendish win the Tour De France?"

"No he won the Green Jersey."

"What does that mean?"

"He accumulated the most points over the 22 stages."

"So didn't win the Tour then?"

"No, he won the Green Jersey, and 5 stages"

"But he didn't win the Tour?"

"No he came 130 something"

"Oh!"

I see what you did there.

Mind you Michael Owen was the winner of SPOTY in 1998 ostensibly on the merits of ‘that goal against Argentina’. Surely 5 stage wins of TdF is worth more than one goal?

[Edit]
And for that matter David Beckham won in 2001 for services to hair gel, Greg Rusedski won in 1997 for not quite winning some tennis match, and Gazza won in 1990 for bawling his eyes out. Need I go on.....[\Edit]

Wallace1492

It is a great achievement from Cav, but is it not a little like winning lap 2, 3 7 8 and 9 in the 10,000 meters but not crossing the finish line first. Or, winning the swimming and cycling part of the Triathalon, but not winning the event itself.

And before you slag the above off, I know the Green jersey is a competition unto itself and I am being a little too simplistic.

A British overall winner of the TDF would surely get SPOTY, as would a winner of any Tennis major. In golf we always are there or there abouts so maybe its not such a big deal in the post Tiger era, the the emergence of a hot new talent may take it.

Only forseeable competition for Rory is if Andy wins the US open.... Cav may get third place....

tailwindhome

walkingbootweather wrote:

Mind you Michael Owen was the winner of SPOTY in 1998 ostensibly on the merits of ‘that goal against Argentina’. Surely 5 stage wins of TdF is worth more than one goal?

The public understood that goal

walkingbootweather

TailWindHome wrote:

walkingbootweather wrote:

Mind you Michael Owen was the winner of SPOTY in 1998 ostensibly on the merits of ‘that goal against Argentina’. Surely 5 stage wins of TdF is worth more than one goal?

The public understood that goal

Good point - well argued.....

FoldingJoe

Wallace1492 wrote:

It is a great achievement from Cav, but is it not a little like winning lap 2, 3 7 8 and 9 in the 10,000 meters but not crossing the finish line first. Or, winning the swimming and cycling part of the Triathalon, but not winning the event itself.

And before you slag the above off, I know the Green jersey is a competition unto itself and I am being a little too simplistic.

A British overall winner of the TDF would surely get SPOTY, as would a winner of any Tennis major. In golf we always are there or there abouts so maybe its not such a big deal in the post Tiger era, the the emergence of a hot new talent may take it.

Only forseeable competition for Rory is if Andy wins the US open.... Cav may get third place....

Or Cav wins the World Championship!!

No, you're right, he'd still come third!!

Andrew N

Needs to get a medal on the Track and wear that rainbow jersey to be considered one of the true greats. He has one of the classic's in the bag lets not forget

tailwindhome

Andrew N wrote:

Needs to get a medal on the Track and wear that rainbow jersey to be considered one of the true greats. He has one of the classic's in the bag lets not forget

Why does he need a medal on the track?

jonginge

He's already been madison world champ on the track... oh, yes, i forgot, Olympics is the only thing that matters

bigmat

Wallace1492 wrote:

It is a great achievement from Cav, but is it not a little like winning lap 2, 3 7 8 and 9 in the 10,000 meters but not crossing the finish line first. Or, winning the swimming and cycling part of the Triathalon, but not winning the event itself.

And before you slag the above off, I know the Green jersey is a competition unto itself and I am being a little too simplistic.

A British overall winner of the TDF would surely get SPOTY, as would a winner of any Tennis major. In golf we always are there or there abouts so maybe its not such a big deal in the post Tiger era, the the emergence of a hot new talent may take it.

Only forseeable competition for Rory is if Andy wins the US open.... Cav may get third place....

It's more like winning the 100 and 200 metres but having to run the marathon to get your medal.

timestar

BBC have skewed the result anyway in recent years by giving viewers a shortlist of people they can vote for, rather than voting for anyone you like. Also it is sports PERSONALITY not sports achievement (the clue is in the title lol) so being "best" is not the issue (although maybe it should be). Watching various news reports yesterday Cavendish's win was usually tagged on the end as a kind of "...and finally" story. Perhaps that tells us all we need to know about his chance of winning SPOTY. Extended coverage of the TdF is only on ITV4 and Eurosport so in the UK it is a minority sport.

Wallace1492

Well, just to get back on topic..... is Cav the UK's greatest athlete. Greatest ever, definately not, plenty ahead of him, Thompson, Coe, Ovett, Cram, Christie, and loads more. Greatest present, maybe, though Hoy, Murray, McIlroy et al may have something to say about it.

He is undoubtly the greatest current sprinter. But I would still rank Robert Millar's achievements in the TDF above Cav. He may not have won as many stages, but he did some fantastic stuff in the mountains, and had some pretty high finishes.

rick_chasey

Wallace1492 wrote:

But I would still rank Robert Millar's achievements in the TDF above Cav. He may not have won as many stages, but he did some fantastic stuff in the mountains, and had some pretty high finishes.

Really?

It's not a direct comparison, but what Cavendish is doing no rider has ever done before.

I know it's easier for sprinters to pick up stage wins than for climbers, but even so.

I know Millar has status amongst 35+ yr fans, given that that was when channel 4 started broadcasting so it all was ridiculously exciting, and he was rubbing shoulders with Hinault and LeMond on his own terms which is no mean feat, but compared to Cavendish?

That doesn't take away from Millar, but Cavendish would be the amongst the best ever in pretty much every country, at least in terms of the intensity of his success.

Wallace1492

Rick Chasey wrote:

Wallace1492 wrote:

But I would still rank Robert Millar's achievements in the TDF above Cav. He may not have won as many stages, but he did some fantastic stuff in the mountains, and had some pretty high finishes.

Really?

It's not a direct comparison, but what Cavendish is doing no rider has ever done before.

I know it's easier for sprinters to pick up stage wins than for climbers, but even so.

I know Millar has status amongst 35+ yr fans, given that that was when channel 4 started broadcasting so it all was ridiculously exciting, and he was rubbing shoulders with Hinault and LeMond on his own terms which is no mean feat, but compared to Cavendish?

That doesn't take away from Millar, but Cavendish would be the amongst the best ever in pretty much every country, at least in terms of the intensity of his success.

I hear what you are saying and agree they do different things. There has always been great sprinters, and Cav is the latest and perhaps greatest. Other riders have won a lot of stages, Cav just got a few more, and could go on to be the highest stage winner ever.

To me though achieving a 4th place overall is pretty superb, and the effort and dicipline of those long days climbing is just outstanding.

tailwindhome

Wallace1492 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Wallace1492 wrote:

But I would still rank Robert Millar's achievements in the TDF above Cav. He may not have won as many stages, but he did some fantastic stuff in the mountains, and had some pretty high finishes.

Really?

It's not a direct comparison, but what Cavendish is doing no rider has ever done before.

I know it's easier for sprinters to pick up stage wins than for climbers, but even so.

I know Millar has status amongst 35+ yr fans, given that that was when channel 4 started broadcasting so it all was ridiculously exciting, and he was rubbing shoulders with Hinault and LeMond on his own terms which is no mean feat, but compared to Cavendish?

That doesn't take away from Millar, but Cavendish would be the amongst the best ever in pretty much every country, at least in terms of the intensity of his success.

I hear what you are saying and agree they do different things. There has always been great sprinters, and Cav is the latest and perhaps greatest. Other riders have won a lot of stages, Cav just got a few more, and could go on to be the highest stage winner ever.

To me though achieving a 4th place overall is pretty superb, and the effort and dicipline of those long days climbing is just outstanding.

So would Wiggins rank above Cavendish?


#Stirring

jonginge

TailWindHome wrote:

Wallace1492 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Wallace1492 wrote:

But I would still rank Robert Millar's achievements in the TDF above Cav. He may not have won as many stages, but he did some fantastic stuff in the mountains, and had some pretty high finishes.

Really?

It's not a direct comparison, but what Cavendish is doing no rider has ever done before.

I know it's easier for sprinters to pick up stage wins than for climbers, but even so.

I know Millar has status amongst 35+ yr fans, given that that was when channel 4 started broadcasting so it all was ridiculously exciting, and he was rubbing shoulders with Hinault and LeMond on his own terms which is no mean feat, but compared to Cavendish?

That doesn't take away from Millar, but Cavendish would be the amongst the best ever in pretty much every country, at least in terms of the intensity of his success.

I hear what you are saying and agree they do different things. There has always been great sprinters, and Cav is the latest and perhaps greatest. Other riders have won a lot of stages, Cav just got a few more, and could go on to be the highest stage winner ever.

To me though achieving a 4th place overall is pretty superb, and the effort and dicipline of those long days climbing is just outstanding.

So would Wiggins rank above Cavendish?


#Stirring

In the current UCI WorldTour list. yes.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/evans-t ... r-rankings

#duckingtheissue

suzyb

I kind of agree with Wallace. At least until we see Cav regularly win sprints without his team. Him winning stages is made possible by his team giving him a great lead out. A climber climbing a mountain has to do it pretty much by themselves (even though their team will lead them to the mountain).

Although since I don't really understand how team mates riding alongside help in the mountains I could be completely wrong.

Wallace1492

You can choose Wiggins, Cav or Millar, purely personal choice. Soem will think Cav's achievements greater that Millar, but I don't..... may be due to parochial rose tinted specs, but I have always given high regard to the climbers, and being one who got into it in the 80's, at a time i still consider the heady days of the TDF, then I go with Millar.

If Cav gets a top 10 place, may have to change that view.... till then.... its Millar time!

iPete

suzyb wrote:

I kind of agree with Wallace. At least until we see Cav regularly win sprints without his team. Him winning stages is made possible by his team giving him a great lead out. A climber climbing a mountain has to do it pretty much by themselves (even though their team will lead them to the mountain).

Although since I don't really understand how team mates riding alongside help in the mountains I could be completely wrong.

What TFD were you watching :?:

rick_chasey

suzyb wrote:

I kind of agree with Wallace. At least until we see Cav regularly win sprints without his team. Him winning stages is made possible by his team giving him a great lead out. .

I've noticed this line of argument appear quite recently.

Cavendish has and can win sprints sans-team. His first tour he hustled just like McEwen. The emphasis his team gets from him keeps them happy (since they're burying their own personal chances for him and like that being recognised) and the press to make otherwise extremely dull stage a little more interesting.

There would be less sprint finishes, but I'd suggest he'd still win the vast majority of them.

Give any other sprinter the same leadout HTC give them and their hit rate wouldn't be anywhere near Cavendish. Greipel came close, but as you saw in the Tour, he comes close without any team whatsoever anyway.

Kieran_Burns

As far as I can see: Cav is a one trick pony. He is blazingly fast over a short distance and requires a lead out train to get him there. No other sprinter has this advantage and he makes massive use of it.

He can, when isolated, use others to lead himself out; but ultimately he is only capable of that one blazing short sprint.

He was outside the elimination time for TWO stages this year and it was only due to a large number of other riders that he stayed in.

Please note that I am not denigrating him in any way: his reputation stands up for close scrutiny but if you want to stand above the others, you need more than one short lived ability to do so.

As above - if he starts getting higher placings in he TdF then I think he should deserve better recognition.

rick_chasey

*facepalm*

jonginge

MSR. That is all

bigmat

Cav is THE BEST at what he does, he has been for the past 4 years. No other current British sportsman comes anywhere near that level (OK, maybe the triathletes, I don't follow that too closely). Cav is quite possibly the greatest sprinter in road racing history. He is an astonishing talent and should be celebrated far more than he is in this country. Finishing 4th in the Tour is great, but 3 riders finished above you in that race alone. Doesn't match being arguably the greatest of all time in your chosen discipline in my opinion.

As for the "he can only win with a leadout" line, I disagree. Cav needs his team to chase down the breakaways. I'm pretty sure that he could win sprints by sitting on the right wheel and getting in the right position, without a leadout train. Because he is so dominant though, it always falls to HTC to chase down the break so it looks like only Cav has any team support going into the sprints.

As for the stages outside the time limit, there are rules in place for that and those rules were followed. Had all riders missing the cut been disqualified, Evans would have won the green jersey - I think that would have detracted somewhat from the competition.

CyclingBantam

Kieran_Burns wrote:

As far as I can see: Cav is a one trick pony. He is blazingly fast over a short distance and requires a lead out train to get him there. No other sprinter has this advantage and he makes massive use of it.

He can, when isolated, use others to lead himself out; but ultimately he is only capable of that one blazing short sprint.

He was outside the elimination time for TWO stages this year and it was only due to a large number of other riders that he stayed in.

Please note that I am not denigrating him in any way: his reputation stands up for close scrutiny but if you want to stand above the others, you need more than one short lived ability to do so.

As above - if he starts getting higher placings in he TdF then I think he should deserve better recognition.

Going by that argument though, what can Andy Schleck do? He can climb in the high mountains. He can't do anything else at all.

Cav is a specialist and whilst I accept he isn't the greatest cyclist in the world (Hushovd is) I think he is possibly/probably the greatest sprinter ever. Sure he uses his leadout train but he has shown he can do without it if needed but if it is there, why on earth wouldn't he make most use of it.

I don't believe he doesn need anything else to stand above the others. He will go down in history as one of the great sprinters of all time, even if he hangs up his wheels tomorrow.

You can never compare specialists against each other as there is no common ground for comparison.

Kieran_Burns

CB - in essence you've confirmed my point. I'm *only* talking about the SPOTY award here.

If he was as good as Hushovd then he would damn' well deserve the title - he stands above all other sprinters, but that's it - that's the one trick I am referring to.

bigmat

Kieran_Burns wrote:

CB - in essence you've confirmed my point. I'm *only* talking about the SPOTY award here.

If he was as good as Hushovd then he would damn' well deserve the title - he stands above all other sprinters, but that's it - that's the one trick I am referring to.

I don't get the Hushovd love in really. The guy isn't the best at anything. Great rider yes, but he's not on the same level as Gilbert, Cancellara, Cavendish and Contador.