Red Lights

W1

notsoblue wrote:

W1 wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

[That pretty much sums it up, and I don't see anyone really disagreeing with this unless they were going out of their way to troll intentionally.

Edit: After writing that last sentence I had an amazing moment of clarity....

If you're implying that I'm a troll for expressing an opinion that a lot of people appear to agree with, I think you've misunderstood the use of the term "troll".

No no no, you've got me wrong. I was being facetious. In fact I would have thought that we were in strong agreement with the quote. Would be interested to hear your opinion on the other points I made.

Sorry, my mistake - oversensitive Thursday. Or something.

W1

notsoblue wrote:

My point is that the "all cyclists run red lights" rubbish is just noise. Its empty prejudice. Its just a handy item on the list of reasons why cyclists deserve public ire. I accept that if cyclists didn't run red lights, people wouldn't complain about cyclists running red lights. But like you say, they'd just complain about something else. It would be about them riding "in the middle of the road", or holding up traffic. My point is that the ar$ehole that tailgates you when you're out for a sunday ride in the countryside with your mates, and honks and shouts abuse as he impatiently carries out a dangerous close overtake, does so because he's a c*** and not because some hipster runs a red light on Farringdon Road.

I don't disagree with you. But RLJing is something that cyclists actually do that is wrong in the eyes of normal, everyday people rather than just knuckle dragging morons. Riding in the middle of the road isn't wrong. Having no licence, tax, or insurance isn't wrong. Ignoring red lights is wrong - and that's why I think it (a) is important not to do and (b) irks not just the idiots, but "normal" people too. And that bothers me, because I want normal people to be pro-cyclists. I can't do anything about the morons.

I couldn't agree more that cocks will be cocks, but when my mum thinks that cyclists run red lights (after nearly being hit by one) that should highlight why it's something that really should be stamped out, because it's something that "we" shouldn't be doing. I stand by the perception argument - but the perception of "real people" rather than shaved monkeys.

As I and others have said - it's another stick to beat us with. Yet it's also (arguably) a legitimate one when you think about it. Because people who think cyclists run red lights, and think that they shouldn't, are correct. That's not to add legitimacy to anyone who disregards a cyclist's safety "because they all run red lights". That's ludicrous.

I certainly see loads of cyclists running red lights every day. And it should be easy to stop, and difficult to anyone to support.

W1

_Brun_ wrote:

If absolutely all cyclists stopped jumping red lights tomorrow, I'd bet my trousers it wouldn't make the slightest difference to how we're treated on the road.

Ditto 'tax' and insurance, We'd still be an inconvenience that motorists are forced to suffer.

For the record I try to set a good example these days, particularly during the commute when it's busy. However, since I've never been afforded any noticeable respect for doing so, I often wonder what the point is.

On an individual level, you're probably right. On a group level - who knows. But isn't it worth trying? Otherwise we might as well disregard everything and ride around like total cocksticks as long as it's faster and "better" for us, and sod everyone else. I;d like to think that's not what we would want to receive though. Tax and insurance can go swing frankly - but RLJing is different.

mybreakfastconsisted

bails87 wrote:

Yep, when telling a colleague about the driver who'd nearly hit me three times in 30 seconds, at least one of which I'm convinced was deliberate, I was told "yeah, but some cyclists don't really set the best example do they". I pointed out that 'some cyclists' have bugger all to do with me just like the actions of this one driver had nothing to do with her when she's in the car. I don't think she got it.

Me: "A driver on a phone nearly hit me today"

Girl in canteen: " I saw a cyclist on the pavement, why do they do that?"

Me: " Haven't a scooby, ask 'em, what the chuff's it got to do with me?"

---

Me: "I cycled 3000 miles last year"

My boss: "Wear a helmet?"

Me: "No, makes me too hot"

Boss "Heh, you'd be hot....WITH A HEAD INJURY!!!"

Me: "Mmmmm"

notsoblue

W1 wrote:

As I and others have said - it's another stick to beat us with. Yet it's also (arguably) a legitimate one when you think about it. Because people who think cyclists run red lights, and think that they shouldn't, are correct. That's not to add legitimacy to anyone who disregards a cyclist's safety "because they all run red lights". That's ludicrous.

I certainly see loads of cyclists running red lights every day. And it should be easy to stop, and difficult to anyone to support.

Then we're in full agreement. The key difference seems to be that I've just accepted that I can't change the behaviour of others, and can't bring myself to get angry when they break the rules.

spen666

Bimbly,

What about these more bus drivers than cyclists run rd lights comments?

When your data shows 43% of RLJers were cyclists and 0% were bus drivers

can you explain how 0% of 101 RLJers is more than 43% of RLJers?

Remember your figures?

notsoblue

spen666 wrote:

Bimbly,

What about these more bus drivers than cyclists run rd lights comments?

When your data shows 43% of RLJers were cyclists and 0% were bus drivers

can you explain how 0% of 101 RLJers is more than 43% of RLJers?

Remember your figures?

*yawn*

W1

notsoblue wrote:

W1 wrote:

As I and others have said - it's another stick to beat us with. Yet it's also (arguably) a legitimate one when you think about it. Because people who think cyclists run red lights, and think that they shouldn't, are correct. That's not to add legitimacy to anyone who disregards a cyclist's safety "because they all run red lights". That's ludicrous.

I certainly see loads of cyclists running red lights every day. And it should be easy to stop, and difficult to anyone to support.

Then we're in full agreement. The key difference seems to be that I've just accepted that I can't change the behaviour of others, and can't bring myself to get angry when they break the rules.

....even when their behaviour adversely affects you? I know it's only other people running red lights (at the end of the day). I'm sure you would be less apathetic if it was something which had more of a serious and direct impact on you. (BTW I'm not being sarcastic - it's not an unreasonable position to hold).

Personally I can't do much more than do what I think is right and hope others follow suit. I'm not going to apologise for getting angry when others put me at risk (directly and indirectly). But if (say) all of us on here did the same, might that make a difference? And would that difference make things better for us? Who knows.

spen666

notsoblue wrote:

spen666 wrote:

Bimbly,

What about these more bus drivers than cyclists run rd lights comments?

When your data shows 43% of RLJers were cyclists and 0% were bus drivers

can you explain how 0% of 101 RLJers is more than 43% of RLJers?

Remember your figures?

*yawn*

Yawn to you, but if we are expected to believe the statement that more bus drivers jump red lights that Bimbly invents where is the evidence.

The data he produces shows 0% of red light jumpers were bus drivers and the largest single group were indeed cyclists.


Yawn all you like, it doesn't change the fact that the data produced merely shows cyclists are the worst and bus drivers are not responsible for any in the sample

your trying to avoid the subject won't make the facts change namely that the largest group of RLJers in the sample were cyclists

jonny_trousers

Origamist wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

Bi50N wrote:

If I wait at a red light, I can be almost totally confident that any car behind me will give me a wide, courteous berth when it (finally :twisted:) passes me. And hopefully, think better of the next cyclist it passes.

Bloody-hell! Try riding to and from South East London sometime. Any cyclist who is waiting at the junction when the lights turn to green down my way is just a nuisance and will either then be passed far too closely or be harassed if they so much as dare to ride in primary (that's not to say I advocate RLJing as an alternative).

I'm all for setting a good example, but the ammount of times drivers will think, Hey, look at that non-RLJing-cyclist over there, I think I'll give him a wide, courteous berth, will pretty much equate to the number of times you think, Hey, look at that taxi driver/WVM passing me with ample room over there, I think I will reasses my opinion of taxi-drivers/WVM!.

SE1 - a case in point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m030uFpV14E

That stretch is on my route too mate, but thankfully I've never had real trouble at that particular spot.

notsoblue

W1 wrote:

....even when their behaviour adversely affects you? I know it's only other people running red lights (at the end of the day). I'm sure you would be less apathetic if it was something which had more of a serious and direct impact on you. (BTW I'm not being sarcastic - it's not an unreasonable position to hold).

Yeah, even then to be honest. I've had (just as you must have had) so many near misses and almost disasters while cycling in London caused by people being absent minded, stupid or just plain nasty. I can recall three I've had this week. But I can't recall the last time I was endangered by a cyclists running a red light. So perhaps I just have a different perspective on it. Yes its wrong, and [Bi50N quote]. But I just don't get that angry about cyclists jumping red lights on clear junctions. People who buzz pedestrians on zebra crossings piss me off far more than that because its unpleasant to see people being scared and bullied like that.

W1 wrote:

Personally I can't do much more than do what I think is right and hope others follow suit. I'm not going to apologise for getting angry when others put me at risk (directly and indirectly).

And thats a perfectly reasonable position to take.

W1 wrote:

But if (say) all of us on here did the same, might that make a difference? And would that difference make things better for us? Who knows.

Well, to be honest, I think most of us on here *do* have the same attitude. All of the people I've spotted on the "SCR Scavenger hunt" are considerate cyclists. You're preaching to the choir. And if *everyone* cycled perfectly, I still don't think it will make things better for us. I really don't. This is our main point of disagreement it would seem.

notsoblue

spen666 wrote:

Yawn to you, but if we are expected to believe the statement that more bus drivers jump red lights that Bimbly invents where is the evidence.

The data he produces shows 0% of red light jumpers were bus drivers and the largest single group were indeed cyclists.


Yawn all you like, it doesn't change the fact that the data produced merely shows cyclists are the worst and bus drivers are not responsible for any in the sample

your trying to avoid the subject won't make the facts change namely that the largest group of RLJers in the sample were cyclists

And? It was a bad example... What I got from the figures he posted was that there are plenty of drivers that routinely run red lights. I think that was the point? And it matches my personal experience. In fact, I suspect it matches yours too. I just don't see what arguing back and forth about the specifics of some report we've all just skim read anyway is going to achieve. Why not focus on points of agreement?

W1

notsoblue wrote:

Well, to be honest, I think most of us on here *do* have the same attitude. All of the people I've spotted on the "SCR Scavenger hunt" are considerate cyclists. You're preaching to the choir. And if *everyone* cycled perfectly, I still don't think it will make things better for us. I really don't. This is our main point of disagreement it would seem.

You're right - which is why I always wonder how repeated threads on the subject on here get to 10+ pages! [I am concious that I am often to blame, but even I can't argue with myself].

spen666

notsoblue wrote:

spen666 wrote:

Yawn to you, but if we are expected to believe the statement that more bus drivers jump red lights that Bimbly invents where is the evidence.

The data he produces shows 0% of red light jumpers were bus drivers and the largest single group were indeed cyclists.


Yawn all you like, it doesn't change the fact that the data produced merely shows cyclists are the worst and bus drivers are not responsible for any in the sample

your trying to avoid the subject won't make the facts change namely that the largest group of RLJers in the sample were cyclists

And? It was a bad example... What I got from the figures he posted was that there are plenty of drivers that routinely run red lights. I think that was the point? And it matches my personal experience. In fact, I suspect it matches yours too. I just don't see what arguing back and forth about the specifics of some report we've all just skim read anyway is going to achieve. Why not focus on points of agreement?

Its the usual lies and spin from Bimbly

He has a history of doing it

Notice he has disappeared now his lies and false statements are exposed.



43 RLJers were cyclists, the next largest group were 27 - being motor car drivers. It supports the notion that cyclists are the largest single group of red light jumpers. However, the data is not something I would seek to rely on as it is too small a sample in terms of time and numbers and we need to know the number of each group passing the sample point. eg was it 43 out of 43 cyclisrs and 27 out of 10,000 motorists? or vice versa - makes a difference

My issue is with Bimbly posting a made up remark like bus drivers are the worst offenders and then not only being unable to back it up, but producing data that shows the opposite of his invented statement.

He couldn't lie straight in bed

notsoblue

spen666 wrote:

My issue is with Bimbly posting a made up remark like bus drivers are the worst offenders and then not only being unable to back it up, but producing data that shows the opposite of his invented statement.

I just kinda ignored that because I broadly agreed with the point he was making. This is an internet forum, not the crown court.

spen666

notsoblue wrote:

spen666 wrote:

My issue is with Bimbly posting a made up remark like bus drivers are the worst offenders and then not only being unable to back it up, but producing data that shows the opposite of his invented statement.

I just kinda ignored that because I broadly agreed with the point he was making. This is an internet forum, not the crown court.

You're right it is an internet forum BUT this was the key remark of his post - the remark that is a complete lie.

Lets debate the facts, not invent lies.

mybreakfastconsisted

RLJing rates are around 16% for cyclists, 10% for cars, 20% for buses.

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/wiki/Bl ... e_pavement

A survey by the RAC found that, yes, a lot of cyclists run red lights.

It also found that one in ten drivers in Manchester and London crossed traffic lights more than three seconds after the lights turned red, and one in five bus drivers ran red lights. There are ten thousand traffic light camera prosecutions annually in London alone, a small part of the 1.5 million prosecutions annually

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/ ... lights.pdf



A total of 7502 cyclists were surveyed across all of the
sites. Of these, an average of 16% violated red lights, whilst the remaining 84%
obeyed the traffic signals.

Therefore it can be concluded that the majority of
cyclists do not ride through red lights.

However, the 16% that do must be
discouraged from ignoring traffic signals.

jimmypippa

Applespider wrote:

Phil_D wrote:

I once read somewhere that if you push your bike across a pedestrian crossing you are still breaking some law or other (RLJ perhaps). To be classed as a pedestrian you have to pick your bike up so neither wheel is in contact with the road.

Not the case. If you start crossing on your feet and stop crossing on your feet you are a pedestrian regardless if whether you are pushing a bike, a buggy or a shopping trolley. You don't need to be carrying it. However, if you stand on one pedal and scoot over, then you are no longer a pedestrian. What that makes people on little micro-scooters, I'm mot sure...

There has been some case law about this, if I recall correctly. But I think it is now clear, as you say.

Drysuitdiver

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

MrChuck wrote:

W1 wrote:

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

Buses and taxis jump red lights more than cyclists. The behaviour of a minority is used to tarnish every cyclist, same as with any prejudice.

Yet more balls.

I know a lot of people on here are in London, but here in Brum I see a car run a red a handful of times a year. On the other hand I hardly ever see a cyclist stop at one.

I can show you where RLJing by vehicles is rampant, the light controlled ped crossing between St Pauls and the Millennium Bridge. Loads of schoolkids use that crossing and every day you see vehicles speeding up and crossing up to three seconds AFTER the light turns red.

so one crossing justifies you doing at all does it ? I used to use this crossing everyday for 12 months until just over a year ago. the only wheeled vehicle that failed to stop for me at the lights was a cycle. obviously ridden by a taxidriver or bus driver , if cyclists don't RLJ.

what also annoys me about that crossing is the amont of cyclists who ride onto the walkway to the millenium bridge and then onto the bridge despite the numerous prohibition signs . my favourite one to one cyclist was to keep in line with him as he came towards me. He ended up against the railing and got off eventually. most others just shouted abuse. bet they were hypocrites who whined at drivers for not following the rules..

jonny_trousers

Not that it has much to do with anything, but I suspect RLJing on a bike is of a different variety to that in a motorised vehicle. If you were to count red-light-running (still going through a junction even though you can clearly see that the lights have just turned amber or red) as being the same as red-light-jumping (blatantly riding through a red light no matter where it is within the phase) then I suspect the figures are quite correct. Still, there's always a small number of motorists willing to the sully the name of their fellow drivers among us cyclists by running reds.

Anonymous

Well ladies and gentlemen. I have good news.

As the opening poster, I can proudly announce that I have taken on board all the useful comments, and I think I will self promote myself from naive spawn to froggy thing (I dont quite give myself full post-kiss prince status yet) - I think I will skip the red light at 3am on an open road. Well...nobody is perfect.

I haven't skipped a single red light since posting this on Monday evening, for pretty much the sole reasons of:

1) What BI5ON said
2) Smug git syndrome
3) Maybe hoping that the less tolerant drivers might sit up and realise we aren't all bad.

I have certainly been allowed through by drivers when my cycling has been sometimes less than predictable, and I put that down to a bit of impatience on my part and not enjoying sitting behind red buses as the fumes are quite noxious. I always give them a cheery wave of thanks. Why shouldn't I? I am extremely grateful for that courteousness.

As they say, you can't change others, you can only change yourself.
Furthermore, nothing tires me out more than stop start stop start, and personally, I am starting to worry about my 650K non stop across Ireland in October, having started my training on Monday. And, nothing works better than the red target on the back of the RLJer to catch up with.

spen666

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

RLJing rates are around 16% for cyclists, 10% for cars, 20% for buses.
.....

bit different from your last set of figures of
43 % cyclists 27% motor cars and 0% busses


tell you what why not just admit the figures are meaningless


It matters not if everyone else on the road breaks the law, it is no defence to your law breaking if caught running a light

stuj15

...and then there are the times where it's entirely your fault....This happened to me tonight on the way home, you can see my head drop just as I pass the black Merc parked in the kerb. One of those bloody flying ants hits me in the left eye and I try to 'blink it out' but only make it worse. I completely and utterly missed the lights change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyqcrWtjDFY

I felt so guilty, if she had crossed a moment later.....I felt ike going back to the lady to apologise.

mybreakfastconsisted

Drysuitdiver wrote:

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

MrChuck wrote:

W1 wrote:

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

Buses and taxis jump red lights more than cyclists. The behaviour of a minority is used to tarnish every cyclist, same as with any prejudice.

Yet more balls.

I know a lot of people on here are in London, but here in Brum I see a car run a red a handful of times a year. On the other hand I hardly ever see a cyclist stop at one.

I can show you where RLJing by vehicles is rampant, the light controlled ped crossing between St Pauls and the Millennium Bridge. Loads of schoolkids use that crossing and every day you see vehicles speeding up and crossing up to three seconds AFTER the light turns red.

so one crossing justifies you doing at all does it ?.

Sorry?


There are 10,000 FPNs issued to drivers for RLjing in London alone each year, and I haven't "justified" anything, I'll thank you to argue with what I've said rather than arguments that don't exist outside your sweaty imagination.

Been down The Red Lion yet, recently re-opened by Antic?

Klarion

Bi50N wrote:

The reason for waiting is very simply to reinforce normative, predictable behaviour amongst cyclists and motorists.

Apparently, almost all & sundry agree with this. However:

Gussio wrote:

the number of RLJing cyclists in London is... not the minority.

and:

MrChuck wrote:

here in Brum I see a car run a red a handful of times a year. On the other hand I hardly ever see a cyclist stop at one.

also:

W1 wrote:

There have been two accidents reported on here caused solely because the person behind assumed the cyclist would run the red light, and hit them when they didn't. That presumption is down to a significant number of cyclists running red lights.

In which case, cyclists refusing to 'RLJ' purely for the sake of obeying the 'letter of the law' appears to be neither normative nor predictable. Possibly, if the remark by W1 is correct, at some junctions the practice of stopping at red rights (when the coast is otherwise clear) by some cyclists may actually be dangerous- given that it is apparently minority behaviour & motorists therefore do not predict it.

But regardless. The idea that the hostility of some motorists to cyclists is due to some cyclists committling 'RLJ's or cycling on the pavement now & again is so much utter drivel.

The majority of car, bus, van & lorry drivers disobey road law whenever convenient to them & when they think they can get away with it.

Eg. Almost every motorist, on almost every road journey, goes faster than the legal speed limit.

And I challenge any member of this forum, a good (or bad) proportion of whom are also vehicle drivers, to deny this.

And, quite obviously, the majority of motorists stop over the ASL at the lights.

So, why would most motorists, who take no more notice of the law than they have to, be impressed by the ostentatious law-abidingness of the ultra-legalistic puritan cycling brigade?

No reason whatsoever, except in the minds of those for whom cycling is not a way of getting around, but rather a way of expressing a bizarre form of moral superiority.

Drysuitdiver

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

Drysuitdiver wrote:

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

MrChuck wrote:

W1 wrote:

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

Buses and taxis jump red lights more than cyclists. The behaviour of a minority is used to tarnish every cyclist, same as with any prejudice.

Yet more balls.

I know a lot of people on here are in London, but here in Brum I see a car run a red a handful of times a year. On the other hand I hardly ever see a cyclist stop at one.

I can show you where RLJing by vehicles is rampant, the light controlled ped crossing between St Pauls and the Millennium Bridge. Loads of schoolkids use that crossing and every day you see vehicles speeding up and crossing up to three seconds AFTER the light turns red.

so one crossing justifies you doing at all does it ?.

Sorry?


There are 10,000 FPNs issued to drivers for RLjing in London alone each year, and I haven't "justified" anything, I'll thank you to argue with what I've said rather than arguments that don't exist outside your sweaty imagination.

Been down The Red Lion yet, recently re-opened by Antic?

you said you could show a crossing where RLJing is rampant , why mention it if wasn't to try and justify your sweaty self jumping red lights.

and Yes had a beer ot 2 in the Red Lion. looks like a Pub in an earthquake zone or a pub set in a rubbish dump. good atmosphere though

bails87

I see very, very few cyclists on my commute, I also go through a maximum of 4 sets of traffic lights (two of them are pedestrian crossings so are pretty much always green) on my 15 mile commute.

As a result, I don't think I've ever seen a cyclist jump a red light. I have seen (and nearly been hit by) 4 or 5 4x4s going through the 2 pedestrian crossings on my walk from the car park to the office. They're outside a nursery, primary school and a church, so not the kind of place to be doing 40mph through a red at school run time.

Buuuut....the plural of anecdote is not data.

mybreakfastconsisted

Drysuitdiver wrote:

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

Drysuitdiver wrote:

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

MrChuck wrote:

W1 wrote:

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

Buses and taxis jump red lights more than cyclists. The behaviour of a minority is used to tarnish every cyclist, same as with any prejudice.

Yet more balls.

I know a lot of people on here are in London, but here in Brum I see a car run a red a handful of times a year. On the other hand I hardly ever see a cyclist stop at one.

I can show you where RLJing by vehicles is rampant, the light controlled ped crossing between St Pauls and the Millennium Bridge. Loads of schoolkids use that crossing and every day you see vehicles speeding up and crossing up to three seconds AFTER the light turns red.

so one crossing justifies you doing at all does it ?.

Sorry?


There are 10,000 FPNs issued to drivers for RLjing in London alone each year, and I haven't "justified" anything, I'll thank you to argue with what I've said rather than arguments that don't exist outside your sweaty imagination.

Been down The Red Lion yet, recently re-opened by Antic?

you said you could show a crossing where RLJing is rampant , why mention it if wasn't to try and justify your sweaty self jumping red lights.

So, if I point out that most paedophiles are white or petrol is flammable I'm justifying paedophilia and arson? Idiot.

Read my posts, RLJing is stupid and makes it harder and more unpleasant for other cyclists , like me, who don;t RLj. Pointing out that buses are worse offenders than cyclists isn't justifying anything, it's stating a fact.

greg66_tri_v2.0

coriordan wrote:

Well ladies and gentlemen. I have good news.

As the opening poster, I can proudly announce that I have taken on board all the useful comments, and I think I will self promote myself from naive spawn to froggy thing (I dont quite give myself full post-kiss prince status yet) - I think I will skip the red light at 3am on an open road. Well...nobody is perfect.

I haven't skipped a single red light since posting this on Monday evening, for pretty much the sole reasons of:

1) What BI5ON said
2) Smug git syndrome
3) Maybe hoping that the less tolerant drivers might sit up and realise we aren't all bad.

I have certainly been allowed through by drivers when my cycling has been sometimes less than predictable, and I put that down to a bit of impatience on my part and not enjoying sitting behind red buses as the fumes are quite noxious. I always give them a cheery wave of thanks. Why shouldn't I? I am extremely grateful for that courteousness.

As they say, you can't change others, you can only change yourself.
Furthermore, nothing tires me out more than stop start stop start, and personally, I am starting to worry about my 650K non stop across Ireland in October, having started my training on Monday. And, nothing works better than the red target on the back of the RLJer to catch up with.

I think this has been rather lost in the background noise. I think this is good news indeed, and a modest triumph for all of us.

Good work!

SimonAH

Top job OP

Oi, Breakfast and co, I notice that you steamrollered over his response a couple of posts above.

Take a breath and read it please.