Red Lights

notsoblue

clarkey cat wrote:

give it one of these W1

I think he'd rather dream of a world in which everyone thought and behaved in the same way as him.

W1

notsoblue wrote:

This is just people being sh!t cyclists. I know exactly what you're talking about as it almost happens to me on a regular basis. Its usually a chubby middle aged nodders on Upper Richmond Road, or someone on a boris bike in the city. I avoid it by checking behind me before I brake at lights, and making eye contact with the other rider. In fact, I use the very same technique to avoid being rear-ended by drivers when I'm approaching a light thats about to turn red.

But it shouldn't happen! And the reason that you do have to taken extra care of these idiots is because jumping red lights is so prevalent that it is now assumed that cyclists will jump red lights - both by ignorant bile-spitting drivers, by angry shouty peds, and by stupid nodder cyclists. It's part of the cycling world because so many people do it. I know you think the argument is bollocks, but I can't understand why you aren't prepared to apportion any of the blame for people thinking cyclists are nobs onto people who cycle like, well, knobs.

W1

clarkey cat wrote:

give it one of these W1

I prefer the over-extended stretch personally. Or a broom-stick through the front wheel.

W1

notsoblue wrote:

I think he'd rather dream of a world in which everyone thought and behaved in the same way as him.

...and with regard to Red Lights, if people did behave as I do you wouldn't need to spend so much time worrying about being rear-ended. That's rather smug and preachy, but it does p!ss me off that I need to modify my behaviour to account for the selfish, lazy, inconsiderate, arrogant, ignorant and downright dangerous actions of others.

rjsterry

notsoblue wrote:

Must....not....reply...to W1....

Aaarrgggghhh!!!11

W1 wrote:

There have been two accidents reported on here caused solely because the person behind assumed the cyclist would run the red light, and hit them when they didn't. That presumption is down to a significant number of cyclists running red lights. If cyclists were not "known" for running red lights, such a presumption would not be made. So all this balls about it not affecting anyone is just that - balls.

I have been hit twice by RLJers.

This is just people being sh!t cyclists. I know exactly what you're talking about as it almost happens to me on a regular basis. Its usually a chubby middle aged nodders on Upper Richmond Road, or someone on a boris bike in the city. I avoid it by checking behind me before I brake at lights, and making eye contact with the other rider. In fact, I use the very same technique to avoid being rear-ended by drivers when I'm approaching a light thats about to turn red.

Stopping at a 'fresh' red, only for the car behind to carry on through is a pretty regular occurence - I don't think it's because of RLJing; I think it's the general London 'red means just 3 more' approach. Can't say I put much faith in making eye contact - I've had plenty of people apparently look straight at me, but who have actually been looking straight through me. It's one thing trying it with another cyclist, but with a car or worse, an HGV or bus, it's not a gamble I'd take. Also, in situations where rear ending is likely (i.e. I've not just coasted up to a red) there's not really time to look over my shoulder, let alone catch someone's eye.

Bassjunkieuk

I'd say I've had a few near misses with riders who expect me to RLJ - I take a perverse pleasure in pulling up at lights and leaving no gap between me and the car alongside me and once had another rider barge past me, in Clapham only for the lights to change 2 seconds later. My comment of "oh was I in your way?" got me a rather dirty look and I was past him about 10 yards up the road....

As for other road users RLJing I've caught quite a few on my camera but none quite as blatant as this guy - I was so shocked I actually did a double check to make sure the lights where still red! The biggest annoyance here was I'd recorded it at a lower quality then normal so couldn't read the damn number plate :-(

As notsoblue says the attitude towards cyclists in this country really is the problem, I think in most road users eyes we are somewhere below rapists and murderers. The majority have a perception that it's cyclists "holding them up" so must overtake them at the soonest opportunity and that we are all freeloading museli munching hippies. Oh yeah and we all must me mad because cycling is "so" dangerous.....now I wonder why people would think that Mr Car Driver?

Anonymous

As I read some of the responses, I put my hands up as naivety - the spawn/tadpole! Its definitely not to shave seconds off the commute, its more the hassle...

I suppose I knew it was illegal, but I was wondering what the consensus is.

I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not about to pull out round a blind corner with a potential motorbike zooming round to knock me off, but if I can be 99.9% certain that its perfectly safe, it just seems like a waste of my time to be sitting at empty light after empty light.

Regularly I get to pedestrian crossings where someone presses to cross then walks on - surely common sense prevails here?
I have been on empty - dead - roads in C. London on the way into work, and I feel like I might be more of a hazard being there, in case the light turns orange->green as a motorbike or car zooms up behind me and I wobble into their path as I set off.

I see the stages of hfidgen. Although I dont jump all lights. I think I am between

- Then I just jumped "when it was safe"
- Then I just jumped "if there were no pedestrians on the crossing"

which is fairly chilled stage for having just started, no? - I certainly don't whizz through as in stuj's example. I defntely slow down if I am going to skip a light to be 100% sure of my decision. By no means do I imagine I am a perfect driver and I am 100% certain of anything. What if my tyre explodes a fly goes in my eye? I'll give it 99% certainty. I even slow down through green lights when driving, as you never know what coming across the road anyway - RLJer?

I guess its just a pain to stop, change get up and go again. I like stuj's example of interval training.
I'm sure I'll be waiting for everyone soon enough.

Good points about the general cyclists vibe. I cycle not wildly differently to how I drive. I drive pretty slowly and brake really early. Now I set off as fast as I can for the muscle burn keep the pace up as long as I can, then slow down well in advance of any hazards.

dondare

Stop at red.
Stay stopped at red+amber.
Go on green if it is safe to do so.

jds_1981

rjsterry wrote:

Stopping at a 'fresh' red, only for the car behind to carry on through is a pretty regular occurence - I don't think it's because of RLJing; I think it's the general London 'red means just 3 more' approach.

Like this http://vimeo.com/19582254

Or the more bizzarre http://vimeo.com/19307797

(Think I need to get some fresh videos for the summer)

joelsim

Quite frankly if you jump a red and get hit I have no sympathy for you. If you endanger someone else in doing so then you are a selfish tw*t.

One of the main things is, and I've heard this from many drivers, cyclist don't give a sh*te about the rules of the road so why should we bother. Of course most of them do bother, but the very thought that a single instance has happened because of this is abhorrent.

Do us all a favour and observe the rules of the road for everyone's sake!

Bassjunkieuk

I do like treating traffic lights as interval training :-) Not really a fan of changing down gears so I'm normally not the fastest off the lights (much to the pains of my drivetrain I suspect.....) but boy is it a good workout :-)

Also lights are great for sizing up the competition, be it the ones that stop or those that casually roll on through and paint a big red target on their backs :evil:

Applespider

I quite like having a chat if we're going to be stuck at the lights for a while.

Since I'm in London that often leads to a look of 'freak!!!!!' although thankfully I do sometimes get some other nutters happy to make small talk.. Does help if they've got a nice bike to use as an opening gambit.

joelsim

Rightly so. We should all make an effort to talk. Perhaps some of the top posters can make this happen. How nice would that be?

Bassjunkieuk

Joelsim wrote:

Rightly so. We should all make an effort to talk. Perhaps some of the top posters can make this happen. How nice would that be?

There is plenty of talking usually at the Morpeth on a Friday :-) So far I seem to be completely missing the vast majority of the forumites that I know about who ride the Embankment! I however am fairly easy to spot.....look out for the camera tooting, tattooed little guy on an old Giant :-) I've only knowingly captured 4 other BR riders so far on BJUK-Cam; CafeWanda, Gaz545, MrOrigamist and DonDaddyD.

Normal route at the moment is joining CS7 at the Balham Waitrose>Queenstown Road>Chelsea Bridge>CS8 to Parly Sq. in the morning then in the evening I'll do a full run along Embankment to Wandsworth Bridge Road :-)

NGale

a green light actually means 'proceed with caution'...after all you may get some nob on a bike jumping a red light on the other junction :roll:

joelsim

I do Richmond Park every day, if anyone wants to say hello, I'm at Kingston Gate at 8:15am ish and on the way home at Roehampton Gate at 6:10pm ish. Black Boardman Hybrid, black Catlike helmet, black polo shirt, brown shorts, black lights, black Raybans, black rucksack, slow progress, especially in the wind.

notsoblue

Bassjunkieuk wrote:

I do like treating traffic lights as interval training :-) Not really a fan of changing down gears so I'm normally not the fastest off the lights (much to the pains of my drivetrain I suspect.....) but boy is it a good workout :-)

Thank you! I'm not the only one... Bloody granny gear nazis....

*cough*MonkeyMonster*cough*

EKE_38BPM

If you've got gears, you may as well use them properly. No point starting off in a higher gear than necessary.

Bassjunkieuk

EKE_38BPM wrote:

If you've got gears, you may as well use them properly. No point starting off in a higher gear than necessary.

I only really started doing it as I want to convert an old bike to a SS so I wanted to know what the highest gear was that I could get away with for my commutes. At the moment I'm using 52x16 which is great as I don't need to change for scalping in 95% of cases, just keep winding it up until I'm just past everyone then hold it there.......;evil: It's also done wonders for my leg strength :-)

The best part is that since I've moved I no longer need to ever go over the lump at Crystal Palace and instead take the much flatter route of A23>Coldhardbour Lane>Camberwell Green for the offices which see me working in the east side of town. Or just use Embankment!

EKE_38BPM

Bassjunkieuk wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

If you've got gears, you may as well use them properly. No point starting off in a higher gear than necessary.

I only really started doing it as I want to convert an old bike to a SS so I wanted to know what the highest gear was that I could get away with for my commutes. At the moment I'm using 52x16 which is great as I don't need to change for scalping in 95% of cases, just keep winding it up until I'm just past everyone then hold it there.......;evil: It's also done wonders for my leg strength :-)

The best part is that since I've moved I no longer need to ever go over the lump at Crystal Palace and instead take the much flatter route of A23>Coldhardbour Lane>Camberwell Green for the offices which see me working in the east side of town. Or just use Embankment!

I'm using 52x18 on my fixie and its fast enough.
I occasionally spin out (as in bouncing out of the saddle) on downhills and very rarely on the flat but I have to tackle hills where I live, so need the lower gear. I don't think I'd be any faster in a higher gear, I think I've got it about right.

shouldbeinbed

NGale wrote:

a green light actually means 'proceed with caution'...after all you may get some nob on a bike jumping a red light on the other junction :roll:

Bi50N

I wait at red lights, whether it's a pedestrian crossing, or a junction, whether it's busy or totally deserted.

And I am sure on plenty of these occasions, it would have been perfectly safe to RLJ. Hell, there might not even be anyone there to see it! Personal assessment of the risk involved is irrelevant. People asses risk differently.

The reason for waiting is very simply to reinforce normative, predictable behaviour amongst cyclists and motorists.

If I wait at a red light, I can be almost totally confident that any car behind me will give me a wide, courteous berth when it (finally :twisted:) passes me. And hopefully, think better of the next cyclist it passes.

Which will probably be me again.

davis

Bi50N wrote:

The reason for waiting is very simply to reinforce normative, predictable behaviour amongst cyclists and motorists.

Quite. Always do right; it will gratify some, and astound the rest. [Mark Twain, I think]

notsoblue

Bi50N wrote:

The reason for waiting is very simply to reinforce normative, predictable behaviour amongst cyclists and motorists.

This is the most sensible thing anyone has ever said in a thread about RLJ. +1

MonkeyMonster

Bi5on, nice post. you don't work down near union street do you? There is one of those belt treks parked up fairly often on it...

Bi50N

MonkeyMonster wrote:

Bi5on, nice post. you don't work down near union street do you? There is one of those belt treks parked up fairly often on it...

Nope, my commute is Wimbledon > Surbiton and I usually take the Pomp now that I've swapped the rack over to it

Gussio

Joelsim wrote:

I do Richmond Park every day, if anyone wants to say hello, I'm at Kingston Gate at 8:15am ish and on the way home at Roehampton Gate at 6:10pm ish. Black Boardman Hybrid, black Catlike helmet, black polo shirt, brown shorts, black lights, black Raybans, black rucksack, slow progress, especially in the wind.

You'll stand out well when the evenings start to draw in....

emdeef

notsoblue wrote:

Bi50N wrote:

The reason for waiting is very simply to reinforce normative, predictable behaviour amongst cyclists and motorists.

This is the most sensible thing anyone has ever said in a thread about RLJ. +1

Yes. Well said.

MrChuck

W1 wrote:

I can't understand why you aren't prepared to apportion any of the blame for people thinking cyclists are nobs onto people who cycle like, well, knobs.

+1

You only have to look at the comments page on an BBC/non-cycling site story involving cyclists, or just have an ask around your office to hear the same thing over and over. People think cyclists are smug, arrogant to$$ers who believe they are above the rules that everybody else follows, and they think this because this is exactly how a very large number of cyclists behave. And if people don't respect cyclists then it's not a huge surprise when they don't treat them with respect on the roads.

Clearly there are other factors at work though that cyclists can't help. For starters cyclists are a minority group and people like to justify their dislike of minority groups by focusing on their real or perceived misdemeanours, while being largely unconcerned by others doing the same or worse. In that respect RLJing just provides a stick to beat cyclists with but it's probably not the only reason people don't like them.

So while it's naive to think drivers would have no issues with cyclists if nobody RLJed (or rode on the pavements etc. etc.) it certainly doesn't help with the general public's perception of them, and I think perception is important in how people behave.

And in a wider, non-cycling sense personally I try not to do things that I expect other people not to do. That said though in the red-light-in-a-deserted-street-at-3-am scenario I might well go through... :?

mybreakfastconsisted

Buses and taxis jump red lights more than cyclists. The behaviour of a minority is used to tarnish every cyclist, same as with any prejudice.