Red Lights

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  • CiB
    CiB Posts: 6,098
    I used to do the treating reds as a Give Way routine, till I saw this very argument on here not many years ago. It cured me; it's now enjoyable to sit at red lights knowing that the driver behind is either astounded that all cyclists don't actually jump the lights, or is pleased to see that at least some of us do stop. The smug factor is quite appealing to me too. Maybe the fact that whichever way I go I won't pass more than one set helps, but as a convert, I'd say it's easy; stop at the lights - it's the law.
  • Bikequin
    Bikequin Posts: 402
    mybreakfastconsisted wrote:
    Buses and taxis jump red lights more than cyclists. The behaviour of a minority is used to tarnish every cyclist, same as with any prejudice.

    What utter twaddle - When waiting at busy lights in London during rush hour I can almost guarantee that at least one cyclist will jump the lights - I rarely see motorists doing this. And please don't try and claim that encroaching on an ASL is jumping the lights.
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  • Bassjunkieuk
    Bassjunkieuk Posts: 4,232
    I actually had a bit of a misunderstanding with a ped at the lights outside H.o.P this morning on this! As we approached the ped crossing lights on the grey cobble section it went red with someone obviously wanting to cross. I've stopped as you should but the rider behind didn't and went through narrowly missing the guy who was crossing!

    I commented "you could have waited you bellend!" (such wonderful choice of words....) and then realized I was getting daggers from the old chap who had crossed from the other side of the road :oops: I explained the comment was directed at the rider who was now approaching the back of the queue ahead of us. Hopefully he understood :-)
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  • Gussio
    Gussio Posts: 2,452
    Bikequin wrote:
    mybreakfastconsisted wrote:
    Buses and taxis jump red lights more than cyclists. The behaviour of a minority is used to tarnish every cyclist, same as with any prejudice.

    What utter twaddle - When waiting at busy lights in London during rush hour I can almost guarantee that at least one cyclist will jump the lights - I rarely see motorists doing this. And please don't try and claim that encroaching on an ASL is jumping the lights.

    Have to agree - the number of RLJing cyclists in London is a disgrace, especially during Summer. It is not the minority.
  • Bassjunkieuk
    Bassjunkieuk Posts: 4,232
    Bikequin wrote:
    What utter twaddle - When waiting at busy lights in London during rush hour I can almost guarantee that at least one cyclist will jump the lights - I rarely see motorists doing this. And please don't try and claim that encroaching on an ASL is jumping the lights.

    Don't forget it's much easier for multiple cyclists to jump a red light whearas you may only get the first or second cars/buses/taxis etc. jump a red.

    I've captured quite a few instances of RLJing by non-cyclists including one where 3 cars went through a clear red that they all could have stopped for.

    As for the ASL encroaching here's what it says in the HC:
    178
    Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic. Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists time and space to move off when the green signal shows.

    As such motorised (all motorised including motorbikes, although I don't have so much of an issue with them as long as they don't act like complete a-holes) should be stopped behind the first stop line, if you pass this line after it's gone red you've technically jumped the light. OK, it's not as bad as going clear through but it's still not obeying the traffic signals/highway code.
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  • spen666
    spen666 Posts: 17,709
    mybreakfastconsisted wrote:
    Buses and taxis jump red lights more than cyclists. The behaviour of a minority is used to tarnish every cyclist, same as with any prejudice.

    This is irrelevant

    Because X does it is not a defence to Y breaking the law.

    If Y breaks the law, then Y is guilty of an offence. It is irrelevant that X is not prosecuted for it
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  • dhope
    dhope Posts: 6,699
    Bi50N wrote:
    The reason for waiting is very simply to reinforce normative, predictable behaviour amongst cyclists and motorists.
    Must remember this as a normal quote to repost in RLJ threads.
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  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    spen666 wrote:
    mybreakfastconsisted wrote:
    Buses and taxis jump red lights more than cyclists. The behaviour of a minority is used to tarnish every cyclist, same as with any prejudice.

    This is irrelevant

    Because X does it is not a defence to Y breaking the law.

    If Y breaks the law, then Y is guilty of an offence. It is irrelevant that X is not prosecuted for it

    If you look at certain junctions, mybreakfastconsisted is right. For example if you're navigating round Parliament Square from West to East, at the third set of lights, there will more often than not be taxis that run the red light from the road that joins PS. Pretty much every single time.

    Spen666, you're right that it is not a defence to breaking the law, but this discussion isn't just about the law of RLJ, its about the (entirely fallacious imo) argument that bad behaviour from cyclists that RLJ cause some motorists to develop a hatred for cyclists. It isn't as simple as that. Motorists run red lights all the time, its just more conspicuous when cyclists do it. I'd make the argument that the consequences of an accident being caused by a cyclist jumping a red light are much less severe than those of a motor vehicle doing the same. But there probably isn't much point.

    Anyhoo, I think MBC raises a good point about the fact that public opinion is more about prejudice than rational observation. His point wasn't about the legality of the situation, though with the persona you choose to project, I can understand why you would have focused on that.
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  • W1
    W1 Posts: 2,636
    mybreakfastconsisted wrote:
    Buses and taxis jump red lights more than cyclists. The behaviour of a minority is used to tarnish every cyclist, same as with any prejudice.

    Yet more balls.
  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    dhope wrote:
    Bi50N wrote:
    The reason for waiting is very simply to reinforce normative, predictable behaviour amongst cyclists and motorists.
    Must remember this as a normal quote to repost in RLJ threads.

    Indeed, I think it should be stickied.
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  • W1
    W1 Posts: 2,636
    notsoblue wrote:
    its about the (entirely fallacious imo) argument that bad behaviour from cyclists that RLJ cause some motorists to develop a hatred for cyclists.

    I still can't understand how you fail to connect "cyclists running red lights" with the (incorrect) perception that "all cyclists run red lights" that's bleated on and on about pretty much everywhere where cycling is discussed.

    Would you at least accept that if cyclists didn't run red lights, people wouldn't complain about cyclists running red lights? Sure, they may complain about something - anything - else, but not that?
  • mybreakfastconsisted
    mybreakfastconsisted Posts: 1,018
    Bikequin wrote:
    mybreakfastconsisted wrote:
    Buses and taxis jump red lights more than cyclists. The behaviour of a minority is used to tarnish every cyclist, same as with any prejudice.

    What utter twaddle - When waiting at busy lights in London during rush hour I can almost guarantee that at least one cyclist will jump the lights - I rarely see motorists doing this. And please don't try and claim that encroaching on an ASL is jumping the lights.

    Transport Research Laboratory study in 2007 showed that buses are more likely to jump red lights than cyclists. After cyclists came black cab drivers.


    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/ ... brigade.do

    "At Piccadilly Circus 101 road users jumped red lights in three hours, including 43 cyclists, 27 car drivers, eight motorcyclists, one lorry driver and 22 vans. A similar pattern emerged at the junction of Kensington High Street and Kensington Church Street."

    If we take these statistics as representative of the problem, then 57% of red-light jumping is carried out by motorists. There are over 10,000 state-controlled CCTV cameras in London. So why is it that the vehicles involved in these crimes are not being traced and penalty notices not being sent to the owners concerned? Perhaps those paid to enforce such laws can't be bothered. Zero tolerance? That'll be the day.

    Let's accept that RLJing is a (perceived) problem.

    Is it dangerous?

    A City of London road casualty report from 2007 showed that cyclists jumping red lights did not feature in the top five causes of casualties in the City.
  • MrChuck
    MrChuck Posts: 1,663
    W1 wrote:
    mybreakfastconsisted wrote:
    Buses and taxis jump red lights more than cyclists. The behaviour of a minority is used to tarnish every cyclist, same as with any prejudice.

    Yet more balls.

    I know a lot of people on here are in London, but here in Brum I see a car run a red a handful of times a year. On the other hand I hardly ever see a cyclist stop at one.
  • mybreakfastconsisted
    mybreakfastconsisted Posts: 1,018
    MrChuck wrote:
    W1 wrote:
    mybreakfastconsisted wrote:
    Buses and taxis jump red lights more than cyclists. The behaviour of a minority is used to tarnish every cyclist, same as with any prejudice.

    Yet more balls.

    I know a lot of people on here are in London, but here in Brum I see a car run a red a handful of times a year. On the other hand I hardly ever see a cyclist stop at one.

    I can show you where RLJing by vehicles is rampant, the light controlled ped crossing between St Pauls and the Millennium Bridge. Loads of schoolkids use that crossing and every day you see vehicles speeding up and crossing up to three seconds AFTER the light turns red.
  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    W1 wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    its about the (entirely fallacious imo) argument that bad behaviour from cyclists that RLJ cause some motorists to develop a hatred for cyclists.

    I still can't understand how you fail to connect "cyclists running red lights" with the (incorrect) perception that "all cyclists run red lights" that's bleated on and on about pretty much everywhere where cycling is discussed.

    Would you at least accept that if cyclists didn't run red lights, people wouldn't complain about cyclists running red lights? Sure, they may complain about something - anything - else, but not that?

    My point is that the "all cyclists run red lights" rubbish is just noise. Its empty prejudice. Its just a handy item on the list of reasons why cyclists deserve public ire. I accept that if cyclists didn't run red lights, people wouldn't complain about cyclists running red lights. But like you say, they'd just complain about something else. It would be about them riding "in the middle of the road", or holding up traffic. My point is that the ar$ehole that tailgates you when you're out for a sunday ride in the countryside with your mates, and honks and shouts abuse as he impatiently carries out a dangerous close overtake, does so because he's a c*** and not because some hipster runs a red light on Farringdon Road.

    This why I think its b0llocks to keep bringing this "public perception" argument in every time the RLJ debate comes around. All you need to do is paste this quote:
    Bi50N wrote:
    The reason for waiting is very simply to reinforce normative, predictable behaviour amongst cyclists and motorists.

    That pretty much sums it up, and I don't see anyone really disagreeing with this unless they were going out of their way to troll intentionally.

    Edit: After writing that last sentence I had an amazing moment of clarity....
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  • spen666
    spen666 Posts: 17,709
    mybreakfastconsisted wrote:
    Bikequin wrote:
    mybreakfastconsisted wrote:
    Buses and taxis jump red lights more than cyclists. The behaviour of a minority is used to tarnish every cyclist, same as with any prejudice.

    What utter twaddle - When waiting at busy lights in London during rush hour I can almost guarantee that at least one cyclist will jump the lights - I rarely see motorists doing this. And please don't try and claim that encroaching on an ASL is jumping the lights.

    Transport Research Laboratory study in 2007 showed that buses are more likely to jump red lights than cyclists. After cyclists came black cab drivers.


    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/ ... brigade.do

    "At Piccadilly Circus 101 road users jumped red lights in three hours, including 43 cyclists, 27 car drivers, eight motorcyclists, one lorry driver and 22 vans. A similar pattern emerged at the junction of Kensington High Street and Kensington Church Street."

    If we take these statistics as representative of the problem, then 57% of red-light jumping is carried out by motorists. There are over 10,000 state-controlled CCTV cameras in London. So why is it that the vehicles involved in these crimes are not being traced and penalty notices not being sent to the owners concerned? Perhaps those paid to enforce such laws can't be bothered. Zero tolerance? That'll be the day.

    Let's accept that RLJing is a (perceived) problem.

    Is it dangerous?

    A City of London road casualty report from 2007 showed that cyclists jumping red lights did not feature in the top five causes of casualties in the City.

    Ahhh yes, now we get to the Bimbly wimbly manner of abusing data

    Firstly This was apparently 1 set of lights ( one direction) in london for 3 hours and on that basis it is representative of all traffic?

    We do not know for example how many of each user went through that junction

    Now the figures are interesting
    101 road users jumped red lights in three hours, including
    43 cyclists,
    27 car drivers,
    eight motorcyclists,
    one lorry driver and
    22 vans

    Thus 0 buses went through a red light, yet according to Bimbly
    [/quote]Transport Research Laboratory study in 2007 showed that buses are more likely to jump red lights than cyclists. After cyclists came black cab drivers.

    So what we have here is 43% of red light jumping by cyclists, the next largest group were car drivers at around 1/2 that rate

    Strange how Bimbly can decide that busses are more likely to go through red lights on this data.

    Alternatively, it could be more lies and nonsense from him,.

    He will come on here no doubt and claim to be simply quoting the report, but as you note, the distinction between the quoted article and the comments and spin is not there as blurring fact and fiction assists him to spin his nonsense
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  • mybreakfastconsisted
    mybreakfastconsisted Posts: 1,018
    The snapshot survey of driver behaviour in London and Glasgow found a surprising number of motorists and cyclists failed to stop on red or attempted to scramble through on amber.


    One in 10 car drivers risked a serious accident or injury to themselves, other road users and pedestrians by driving through a traffic light when it had been red for over three seconds

    A further one in five took a chance on a last-minute amber signal.

    Bus drivers

    Bus drivers too were observed to frequently disobey traffic lights. In London, as many as a fifth of bus drivers were found to go through traffic signals, making them worse offenders than car drivers.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3005364.stm
  • Bikequin
    Bikequin Posts: 402
    MBC - Taken from the article you've just posted -

    "Cyclists were the ones that went through the junction most often - the traffic lights might just as well not have been there."

    The rest of what you've posted is just spurious rubbish.
    You'll not see nothing like the mighty Quin.
  • mybreakfastconsisted
    mybreakfastconsisted Posts: 1,018
    Bikequin wrote:
    MBC - Taken from the article you've just posted -

    "Cyclists were the ones that went through the junction most often - the traffic lights might just as well not have been there."

    The rest of what you've posted is just spurious rubbish.

    In my experience cyclists are by no means the worst offenders. TFL agree and point out buses jump red lights more than cyclists. It's not just a quantitive issue, if I were to be hit by a vehicle jumping a red on the whole I'd rather it were a cyclist than a bus, and as the figures show, RLJing by cyclists isn't at all a major factor in RTCs.

    RLjing by anyone is stupid. Cyclists aren't the worst offenders, whether in stats or recorded injuries or deaths, nowhere near.
  • spen666
    spen666 Posts: 17,709
    mybreakfastconsisted wrote:
    The snapshot survey of driver behaviour in London and Glasgow found a surprising number of motorists and cyclists failed to stop on red or attempted to scramble through on amber.


    One in 10 car drivers risked a serious accident or injury to themselves, other road users and pedestrians by driving through a traffic light when it had been red for over three seconds

    A further one in five took a chance on a last-minute amber signal.

    Bus drivers

    Bus drivers too were observed to frequently disobey traffic lights. In London, as many as a fifth of bus drivers were found to go through traffic signals, making them worse offenders than car drivers.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3005364.stm

    Shame in your data 0% of RLJers were bus drivers

    Care to expalin this?

    either you are taklking bull or the data you are claiming to support your post is bull

    Either way its a lot of bull


    No doubt I am a straw man and a disgrace to my profession for pointing this out am I?
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  • jonny_trousers
    jonny_trousers Posts: 3,588
    Bi50N wrote:
    If I wait at a red light, I can be almost totally confident that any car behind me will give me a wide, courteous berth when it (finally :twisted:) passes me. And hopefully, think better of the next cyclist it passes.

    Bloody-hell! Try riding to and from South East London sometime. Any cyclist who is waiting at the junction when the lights turn to green down my way is just a nuisance and will either then be passed far too closely or be harassed if they so much as dare to ride in primary (that's not to say I advocate RLJing as an alternative).

    I'm all for setting a good example, but the ammount of times drivers will think, Hey, look at that non-RLJing-cyclist over there, I think I'll give him a wide, courteous berth, will pretty much equate to the number of times you think, Hey, look at that taxi driver/WVM passing me with ample room over there, I think I will reasses my opinion of taxi-drivers/WVM!.
  • W1
    W1 Posts: 2,636
    notsoblue wrote:
    [That pretty much sums it up, and I don't see anyone really disagreeing with this unless they were going out of their way to troll intentionally.

    Edit: After writing that last sentence I had an amazing moment of clarity....

    If you're implying that I'm a troll for expressing an opinion that a lot of people appear to agree with, I think you've misunderstood the use of the term "troll".
  • iPete
    iPete Posts: 6,076
    emdeef wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    Bi50N wrote:
    The reason for waiting is very simply to reinforce normative, predictable behaviour amongst cyclists and motorists.

    This is the most sensible thing anyone has ever said in a thread about RLJ. +1

    Yes. Well said.

    Thread locked tbh.
  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    W1 wrote:
    notsoblue wrote:
    [That pretty much sums it up, and I don't see anyone really disagreeing with this unless they were going out of their way to troll intentionally.

    Edit: After writing that last sentence I had an amazing moment of clarity....

    If you're implying that I'm a troll for expressing an opinion that a lot of people appear to agree with, I think you've misunderstood the use of the term "troll".

    No no no, you've got me wrong. I was being facetious. In fact I would have thought that we were in strong agreement with the quote. Would be interested to hear your opinion on the other points I made.
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  • _Brun_
    _Brun_ Posts: 1,740
    If absolutely all cyclists stopped jumping red lights tomorrow, I'd bet my trousers it wouldn't make the slightest difference to how we're treated on the road.

    Ditto 'tax' and insurance, We'd still be an inconvenience that motorists are forced to suffer.

    For the record I try to set a good example these days, particularly during the commute when it's busy. However, since I've never been afforded any noticeable respect for doing so, I often wonder what the point is.
  • mybreakfastconsisted
    mybreakfastconsisted Posts: 1,018
    _Brun_ wrote:
    If absolutely all cyclists stopped jumping red lights tomorrow, I'd bet my trousers it wouldn't make the slightest difference to how we're treated on the road.

    Ditto 'tax' and insurance, We'd still be an inconvenience that motorists are forced to suffer.

    For the record I try to set a good example these days, particularly during the commute when it's busy. However, since I've never been afforded any noticeable respect for doing so, I often wonder what the point is.

    Exactly. I've had a red-faced beer user scream "You don't stop at red lights!" at me in Westminster, as I waited, at a red.

    I've had an elderly couple say "Unusual to see a cyclist with lights" at me. I called them racist and killed them in the face.

    Even at parties when people discover I cycle to work I've had people moan about RLJing, which I don't do. It's like asking what car someone drives and then say "Yebbut. Car drivers. Who cares. They killed Diana"
  • notsoblue
    notsoblue Posts: 5,756
    _Brun_ wrote:
    If absolutely all cyclists stopped jumping red lights tomorrow, I'd bet my trousers it wouldn't make the slightest difference to how we're treated on the road.

    Ditto 'tax' and insurance, We'd still be an inconvenience that motorists are forced to suffer.

    For the record I try to set a good example these days, particularly during the commute when it's busy. However, since I've never been afforded any noticeable respect for doing so, I often wonder what the point is.

    +1
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  • jonny_trousers
    jonny_trousers Posts: 3,588
    notsoblue wrote:
    _Brun_ wrote:
    If absolutely all cyclists stopped jumping red lights tomorrow, I'd bet my trousers it wouldn't make the slightest difference to how we're treated on the road.

    Ditto 'tax' and insurance, We'd still be an inconvenience that motorists are forced to suffer.

    For the record I try to set a good example these days, particularly during the commute when it's busy. However, since I've never been afforded any noticeable respect for doing so, I often wonder what the point is.

    +1

    +2
  • Origamist
    Origamist Posts: 807
    Jonny_Trousers wrote:
    Bi50N wrote:
    If I wait at a red light, I can be almost totally confident that any car behind me will give me a wide, courteous berth when it (finally :twisted:) passes me. And hopefully, think better of the next cyclist it passes.

    Bloody-hell! Try riding to and from South East London sometime. Any cyclist who is waiting at the junction when the lights turn to green down my way is just a nuisance and will either then be passed far too closely or be harassed if they so much as dare to ride in primary (that's not to say I advocate RLJing as an alternative).

    I'm all for setting a good example, but the ammount of times drivers will think, Hey, look at that non-RLJing-cyclist over there, I think I'll give him a wide, courteous berth, will pretty much equate to the number of times you think, Hey, look at that taxi driver/WVM passing me with ample room over there, I think I will reasses my opinion of taxi-drivers/WVM!.

    SE1 - a case in point:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m030uFpV14E
    Folders
  • bails87
    bails87 Posts: 12,998
    Yep, when telling a colleague about the driver who'd nearly hit me three times in 30 seconds, at least one of which I'm convinced was deliberate, I was told "yeah, but some cyclists don't really set the best example do they". I pointed out that 'some cyclists' have bugger all to do with me just like the actions of this one driver had nothing to do with her when she's in the car. I don't think she got it.
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