Are Orange Fives over hyped?

YIMan

So Merida, one of the largest (robot) frame builders in the world say that their robot-welding is great.....

I repeat, I'm not saying robot welding is or isn't sometimes, usually or always better than manual.

I am just interested when people pass statements off as fact without any independent reaearch to back the statements up.

Relevant research in this debate would be % of weld failures over a given period for orange 5s v robot welded equivalents. If the robot welds are stronger....and by that I can only read you mean we are seeing manual welds as lesser fit for purpose due to a higher weld failure rate, Orange 5 frames must be failing regularly, right?

Thewaylander

Yiman it's a well proven fact that mass production brings in strigent quality control. Its one of the bi products of large scale manufacturing.

Its a good thing embrace it

Running running jump

First, may I say; wow there is some bad blood on thi subject isn't there!

I may be able to coment on the orange five as I own one.

A few years ago mtbs were better value, as were road bikes and motorbikes... The world is expensive now and I think we are all struggling to adjust to a simple looking Ali frame costing £1300... At that kind of money your never going to feel your getting the bargin of the decade...

Pros;

British - if you don't care what your kids are going to do for a job in 20 years, then do get stuck in to 'made in china'
Unique look, only a five looks like a five.
Well made. Strong. Etc.
Good handling , I'd say a cannondale rush and meta4/5 are a little better, weaker and have more flex!
I like a set up with float r front and rear, egg beaters so you have a bike you get out the van at afan, get on it, pedal, smile. End off. Simple. Just take in the view/ action.
Get home, wash chuck in garage. Forget. Done. That's an enduro bike for me.

Cons;

It's a five so some people will ask you why you bought it...
It's expensive.
It's not the best at any one area. Only good in all.
It's not bling
Its not light. Most will be 29-31lbs.
You will need to be rather fit to beat your mate on a cannondale flash!

MissBint37

For God's sake why is this thread still going?!!!

Why the hell does it matter, we ride a bike because we like it. Like everything it's personal preference, each to their own what suits one won't suit another. If we buy something we don't like just because its an Orange or whatever else, then we are stupid!

Stop wasting time fighting and go play on the trails....

That is all!

Thewaylander

Yes binty go ont he trails nudging out today cos your mate is chicken for the rain hehe :P

YIMan

Thewaylander wrote:

Yiman it's a well proven fact that mass production brings in strigent quality control. Its one of the bi products of large scale manufacturing.

Its a good thing embrace it

All mass production of all products brings in stringent quality control? Where is this well proven please? Why does stringent quality control in mass production mean the welds are "usually stronger" than manual welds?

Actually, don't answer. This is just another example of sweeping statements passed off as "well proven facts".

YIMan

MissBint37 wrote:

For God's sake why is this thread still going?!!!

Why the hell does it matter, we ride a bike because we like it. Like everything it's personal preference, each to their own what suits one won't suit another. If we buy something we don't like just because its an Orange or whatever else, then we are stupid!

Stop wasting time fighting and go play on the trails....

That is all!

Actually, why was it even started? If you don't like a bike, don't buy one. Why would you start a thread on it, particularly one which knocks a successful British company.

Thewaylander

YIMan wrote:

Thewaylander wrote:

Yiman it's a well proven fact that mass production brings in strigent quality control. Its one of the bi products of large scale manufacturing.

Its a good thing embrace it

All mass production of all products brings in stringent quality control? Where is this well proven please? Why does stringent quality control in mass production mean the welds are "usually stronger" than manual welds?

Actually, don't answer. This is just another example of sweeping statements passed off as "well proven facts".

So your sweeping statements not being able to qualify it the other way out deos ours,. Mass Manufacturing has been around for a long time and quality is a huge part thats a fact, and we soon know when a big manufacturer has issues, it's all over the press.

I find your sweeping statements far worse than anyone elses. We are more discussing the fact if you read the thread that typical orange owners, saying there bikes are by far the best when really there an average bike for the money.

YIMan

Thewaylander wrote:

YIMan wrote:

Thewaylander wrote:

Yiman it's a well proven fact that mass production brings in strigent quality control. Its one of the bi products of large scale manufacturing.

Its a good thing embrace it

All mass production of all products brings in stringent quality control? Where is this well proven please? Why does stringent quality control in mass production mean the welds are "usually stronger" than manual welds?

Actually, don't answer. This is just another example of sweeping statements passed off as "well proven facts".

So your sweeping statements not being able to qualify it the other way out deos ours,. Mass Manufacturing has been around for a long time and quality is a huge part thats a fact, and we soon know when a big manufacturer has issues, it's all over the press.

I find your sweeping statements far worse than anyone elses. We are more discussing the fact if you read the thread that typical orange owners, saying there bikes are by far the best when really there an average bike for the money.

I haven't made any sweeping statements to the contrary, therefore there is nothing to qualify. I am just asking people to explain theirs. Prefacing something with "it's a well proven fact" does not make it a well proven fact.

Sweeping statements about Orange owners.......don't suppose you've done a survey, based on a reasonable sample size? ;-)

Silversladey

Orange fives are just another bike to me, they get good write ups they look a bit different to most other bikes, and they seem ok.

I cant buy into the arguement that mass produced bikes are of better quality, Yes they have a massive Quality department with stringent Parts per Million targets but they still make mistakes.

On the other side of the debate hand built frames, although working on a smaller budget , still adhere to strict quality procedures and produce excellent top quality work.

Thewaylander

YIMan wrote:

Thewaylander wrote:

YIMan wrote:

Thewaylander wrote:

Yiman it's a well proven fact that mass production brings in strigent quality control. Its one of the bi products of large scale manufacturing.

Its a good thing embrace it

All mass production of all products brings in stringent quality control? Where is this well proven please? Why does stringent quality control in mass production mean the welds are "usually stronger" than manual welds?

Actually, don't answer. This is just another example of sweeping statements passed off as "well proven facts".

So your sweeping statements not being able to qualify it the other way out deos ours,. Mass Manufacturing has been around for a long time and quality is a huge part thats a fact, and we soon know when a big manufacturer has issues, it's all over the press.

I find your sweeping statements far worse than anyone elses. We are more discussing the fact if you read the thread that typical orange owners, saying there bikes are by far the best when really there an average bike for the money.

I haven't made any sweeping statements to the contrary, therefore there is nothing to qualify. I am just asking people to explain theirs. Prefacing something with "it's a well proven fact" does not make it a well proven fact.

Sweeping statements about Orange owners.......don't suppose you've done a survey, based on a reasonable sample size? ;-)

Yup 3 in the car park last night and 2 on top of the trail on thursday, all 5 were totally up there own bums slow and big headed about there bikes in comparison to mine(how they got on to the damn topic i have no idea)

So i have 100% out of a sample of 5 stats can be used to represent everything.

And go study a degree for engineering with manufacturing you can go learn about quality control yourself? Manufacturing with out it is pointless. if you want me to go find some manufacturing wualification for you to give you study support text i'm not going too, or you could go viisit pretty much any factory and ask there quality control guy.

As for the argument of hand built being great, Go look at cars look under the bonnet of hand built TVR thats british engineering for you

Thewaylander

YIMan wrote:

Thewaylander wrote:

YIMan wrote:

Thewaylander wrote:

Yiman it's a well proven fact that mass production brings in strigent quality control. Its one of the bi products of large scale manufacturing.

Its a good thing embrace it

All mass production of all products brings in stringent quality control? Where is this well proven please? Why does stringent quality control in mass production mean the welds are "usually stronger" than manual welds?

Actually, don't answer. This is just another example of sweeping statements passed off as "well proven facts".

So your sweeping statements not being able to qualify it the other way out deos ours,. Mass Manufacturing has been around for a long time and quality is a huge part thats a fact, and we soon know when a big manufacturer has issues, it's all over the press.

I find your sweeping statements far worse than anyone elses. We are more discussing the fact if you read the thread that typical orange owners, saying there bikes are by far the best when really there an average bike for the money.

I haven't made any sweeping statements to the contrary, therefore there is nothing to qualify. I am just asking people to explain theirs. Prefacing something with "it's a well proven fact" does not make it a well proven fact.

Sweeping statements about Orange owners.......don't suppose you've done a survey, based on a reasonable sample size? ;-)

Yup 3 in the car park last night and 2 on top of the trail on thursday, all 5 were totally up there own bums slow and big headed about there bikes in comparison to mine(how they got on to the damn topic i have no idea)

So i have 100% out of a sample of 5 stats can be used to represent everything.

And go study a degree for engineering with manufacturing you can go learn about quality control yourself? Manufacturing with out it is pointless. if you want me to go find some manufacturing wualification for you to give you study support text i'm not going too, or you could go viisit pretty much any factory and ask there quality control guy.

As for the argument of hand built being great, Go look at cars look under the bonnet of hand built TVR thats british engineering for you
Your sweeping statement was it was worth paying for hand built welded frame, support that

Silversladey

Yup 3 in the car park last night and 2 on top of the trail on thursday, all 5 were totally up there own bums slow and big headed about there bikes in comparison to mine(how they got on to the damn topic i have no idea)

Bri,

Those two guys on Thursday seemed o.k.

And the fact that Kev and I overtook them on the descent helped

Thewaylander

LOL i met them on top, Was telling me how his patriot was the most epic bike ever, was in with a big group of lads.

I just rode off lol. but then I am rude

miss notax

Thewaylander wrote:

Go look at cars look under the bonnet of hand built TVR thats british engineering for you

We have a TVR and all I can say is Thank Christ that my 5 is better built than the car :shock:

YIMan

Waylander, a sample of five :-)

I met 10 people riding with Maxxis tyres last week. 7 of them had long hair. Therefore most people who ride Maxxis tyres have long hair!? :-)

I have a degree in Engineering. I am also a Chartered Mechanical Engineer. In fact I work for probably the biggest British engineering/manufacturing success story.

But you are getting confused, your argument is all over the place and you have lost what my point was.....I simply asked for proof of the sweeping statement that robot welded frames are "usually higher quality than a hand welded frame".

I also never made the statement that it was worth paying (I presume you mean more) for a handbuilt welded frame. You have got confused here too.

Thewaylander

Crap it was mountain who said that lol, we just coming back to his statment, as the flow through it kinda says mechanical welds can be high quality too, and that specifying one better than the other is a joke.But my argument got mixed as i was confusing you with another dude.

YIMan

Lol gan for a ride mate :-)

supersonic

YIMan wrote:

So Merida, one of the largest (robot) frame builders in the world say that their robot-welding is great.....

I repeat, I'm not saying robot welding is or isn't sometimes, usually or always better than manual.

I am just interested when people pass statements off as fact without any independent reaearch to back the statements up.

Relevant research in this debate would be % of weld failures over a given period for orange 5s v robot welded equivalents. If the robot welds are stronger....and by that I can only read you mean we are seeing manual welds as lesser fit for purpose due to a higher weld failure rate, Orange 5 frames must be failing regularly, right?

Orange do not robot weld any 5s, so we cannot compare. My 'sweeping' statement is based on info from the big bike robot users who claim higher accuracy and quality of welding in this application, and wasn't aimed solely gainst the 5, it was generalised for a reason. I am not aware of any claims hand welds are more accurate than robot welds. But I have certainly not said hand welded frames as a whjole are not fit for purpose or of poor quality. There are some very skilled welders out there that achieve a high standard, but is a hand welded frame worth paying more for? If so why?

On more 'general' sweeping terms, we have this:

http://robotwelding.co.uk/benefits.html

Here an accuracy of 0.08mm is quoted.

The robot has a very high repeatable accuracy (± 0.08 mm) and excellent path following accuracy. The robot presents the welding gun at the correct welding angle, welding speed and distance. The high level of integration to the welding equipment ensures that optimum welding conditions can be used for each and every joint. The end result is consistent high quality output, day in day out, year in year with reduced cost for rework, scrap or removal of weld splatter (see images of automotive parts and MIG brazing).

estampida

I'm back so,

after 9 pages it seems by concensus the they are over hyped

and with manufacturing by hand in the UK

pick TVR (famous for breaking down) or morgan (10 yr waiting list... v high quality)

you have chosen a spacific manufacturer that is renown for crapness

And the main sorts defending orange are the types that buy these over hyped and overpriced frames, - the peter for instance...

but as a rule get somthing unsual cos at worst if its nicked it not so hard to trace

Thewaylander

Ok look at MG's(fun built like crap)

Or we can go to Lotus built like crap. what else? there are few well built UK car's there fun, but from pure quality they never ever have been.

allen.coulson

The Orange 5 discussion is akin to the old - no-one has ever ben fired for buying IBM.

..which, of course, may be lost on some of the younger members of the forum.

Thewaylander

allen.coulson wrote:

The Orange 5 discussion is akin to the old - no-one has ever ben fired for buying IBM.

..which, of course, may be lost on some of the younger members of the forum.

What as in there expensively overpriced, nothing special in terms of performance but they work so the MD wont fire his entire IT department for buying one type thing.

Yarp old enough to remember this one hehe

supersonic

Time we locked this? Ye or nay?

Anonymous

I hadn't realised this was still going!
~All it's done is prove the fervour of Orange fans, really. Odd that

Thewaylander

Nay it's just to much fun. but it hink it should be moved to the catcher so we can become really wude to people lol.

supersonic

I think we will lock it, as is becoming fragmented. If people want to carry on a particular discussion, be best to start a new one. If people want to bash brands, start it in CC ;-)