The cycling industry are a bunch of

snailracer

EKE_38BPM wrote:

snailracer wrote:

As for too many gears, I've already posted about that.

If I remember correctly, [paraphrasing]"Weak riders need more gears to get their fat behinds up the hills."[/paraphrasing].
So everyone who used to ride five speed bikes were some sort of super being?

In the days when you could still buy a 5 speed bike, you bought it from a real bike shop where a man in a blue shop coat and brown cords would simply swap out the standard chainring for one that suited you. These days, at Asda, you don't get that level of customization and you don't need it - the triple chainring will have enough gear range for a granny or a rugby player, the compact geometry has enough saddle height adjustment for a child or adult. Which is just as well, as you don't get a test ride. One bike fits all, no customization needed, which is one reason why it's so cheap.

Your rant about "fat behinds" is your rant, not mine, I was thinking of gears for grannies.

EKE_38BPM wrote:

snailracer wrote:

Customers want bikes that need replacing every 10 years or less

I must have missed that referendum.
Only an idiot votes for designed obsolesence. Wanting to replace your stuff (any thing you own) due to upgrades is fair enough. Having to replace it because it has died always winds me up...

Light, cheap or strong: nobody picks "strong", they are too dazzled with "light" and "cheap".

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Maybe your MTB is rubbish which is why you want it to die? Why not just sell it if you want shot of it so much?

More hassle to sell than it's worth. Psst, interested in a 18-year old hardtail?

snailracer

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Jay was talking about touring, as was I, not commuting.

Oops, sorry about that.

My point about there not being a need for multiple hand positions with a correctly-positioned (i.e. high) flat bar still holds, though.

snailracer

Rolf F wrote:

snailracer wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

...Why are bikes like the mixte pictured not made any more?

I think mixte frames are difficult to make in aluminium, the cheapest material for mass-produced bikes suitable for the western markets. The long lateral tubes need to be thin to avoid hitting the rider's feet, and thin tubing = steel. Thin aluminium tubing is neither strong nor stiff enough.

Apparently can be done - alloy Mixte here:



http://themixtegallery.wordpress.com/

Lugged aluminium - most unusual.

jonny_trousers

Nah, it's not the bike shops (excepting perhaps Halfords and certain branches of Evans); it's just flawed perception. Most of the people you will have tried offering advice to Eke, will never have even stepped into a bike shop. Flat-bar, upright with lots of gears equals comfort and ease of riding right? It's a pretty easy false assumption to make and the manufacturers are more than happy to roll out bikes that fit that profile. A year ago now, when I was finally sick of traffic jams and seeing cyclists pass me time and time again on my journey into work, and I decided to join their ranks, I chose a cheap hybrid for myself (admittedly with only 8 gears). I did all of my research online and cannot blame any retailer for the mild mistake I subsequently made. It was no biggy, however, as I only lost about 50 quid when I sold it on eBay two months later and in the process I rediscovered a love of cycling. For me, a small price to pay.

Your advice may be spot on, Eke, but it will be falling on deaf ears. Encourage them to ride, but hang on to your sanity by expecting them not to listen fully; they'll either get it in the end or they won't.

PS. It's also worth considering that the looks do matter.

EKE_38BPM

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

...Your advice may be spot on, EKE, but it will be falling on deaf ears. Encourage them to ride, but hang on to your sanity by expecting them not to listen fully; they'll either get it in the end or they won't.

PS. It's also worth considering that the looks do matter.

I'm getting used to being ignored. I'm tempted to buy a mixte just for lady friends to test ride so that they can compare it with what the shops are offering.
I may even cover it in fake carbon sticky tape so that it looks 'modern'.

I wrote the above as a joke but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense (apart from the carbon tape bit). If a picture paints a thousand words, how many words are felt in a test ride?

Has anyone got any idea how much a mixte framed bike weighs in comparison to a lower end hybrid? I don't need the weight down to the gram (where the narrowness of the chain is a factor), just to the nearest 500g. e.g. that bike weighs about half a bag of sugar more than that one.

LiT and CW could supply me with numbers as one has a mixte and the other has THREE hybrids and being burds they are bound to have scales, but I'm open to all answers, not just from Commuting Chat royalty.

shouldbeinbed

EKE_38BPM wrote:

snailracer wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Jay dubbleU wrote:

...only the UK and the Americans seem to us drop bars for touring - most others use flat bars because they're more comfortable.

Flat bars have one position, two with bar ends. Drops have 4+.
Flats don't let you 'hide' from the wind, drops do.

You're not selling flat bars to me so far, feel free to keep trying but I don't rate you're chances of success.

Actually, bikes in most other countries don't have flatbars either - they have riser bars with swept-back ends. Moreover, they don't need multiple hand positions - the bars are set high, so there is no weight on the wrists and shoulders, so you don't need to change hand positions to relieve pressure. A high bar means you sit upright - all the weight is on your backside (usually on a sprung saddle), not your arms which are not good at supporting weight since we evolved upright walking.
Less aerodynamic and therefore slower? For sure. But in most other countries commuting is not treated as a race and speeds are slow ('cos there are so many other bikes - not like here).

Jay was talking about touring, as was I, not commuting.

In the commuting chat board of the commuting section of the forum. You started it in cimmuting mode & put it here, somewhat harsh to have a pop at someone daring link it back to commuting.

This is the sort of thread that winds me up as it reads to me that rides bikes, not a specific brand or type as blinkered bigotry by the sort of person if they were car enthusiast would have 3 mitsubishi evo's on the go and point and laugh at anyone daring to suggest a flappy paddle gear shift, slick tyres and 4wd arent neccessary to enjoy general driving. Parts of it come across as childidh and pretty sad to have veered so far from the original well made point

Clank

M'eh, who cares what it's called? Does it fit, does it work for the owner? That's what matters. Those two simple things.

I know a guy commutes 8 miles each way on a folder. Man, he must be really clueless according to this thread. Another guy in work commutes 8 miles each way on a hybrid - and has done for eight years! What a muppet, eh?

Seriously, there's some grip needs getting in these parts.

Now, step away from the bike snobbery.:

roger_merriman

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Why are bikes like the mixte pictured not made any more?

I assume you mean step though bikes?

which are considered to be used for popping to the shops and so on, tend to be heavy sluggish but dependable bikes. wide tyres smooth out road lumps and support weight of shopping etc.

They assume any one who wants a faster bike will get something else.

EKE_38BPM

shouldbeinbed wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

snailracer wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Jay dubbleU wrote:

...only the UK and the Americans seem to us drop bars for touring - most others use flat bars because they're more comfortable.

Flat bars have one position, two with bar ends. Drops have 4+.
Flats don't let you 'hide' from the wind, drops do.

You're not selling flat bars to me so far, feel free to keep trying but I don't rate you're chances of success.

Actually, bikes in most other countries don't have flatbars either - they have riser bars with swept-back ends. Moreover, they don't need multiple hand positions - the bars are set high, so there is no weight on the wrists and shoulders, so you don't need to change hand positions to relieve pressure. A high bar means you sit upright - all the weight is on your backside (usually on a sprung saddle), not your arms which are not good at supporting weight since we evolved upright walking.
Less aerodynamic and therefore slower? For sure. But in most other countries commuting is not treated as a race and speeds are slow ('cos there are so many other bikes - not like here).

Jay was talking about touring, as was I, not commuting.

In the commuting chat board of the commuting section of the forum. You started it in cimmuting mode & put it here, somewhat harsh to have a pop at someone daring link it back to commuting.

This is the sort of thread that winds me up as it reads to me that rides bikes, not a specific brand or type as blinkered bigotry by the sort of person if they were car enthusiast would have 3 mitsubishi evo's on the go and point and laugh at anyone daring to suggest a flappy paddle gear shift, slick tyres and 4wd arent neccessary to enjoy general driving. Parts of it come across as childidh and pretty sad to have veered so far from the original well made point

Easy tiger, I wasn't having a pop at SR, just point out that JW and I were talking about touring.
If I had written "SR, YOU DOZY ****, WE MEANT TOURING, CAN'T YOU'RE IDIOTIC LITTLE MIND HANDLE THAT CONCEPT?!!", then that would be having a pop, but I didn't, I just pointed out SR's minor error and SR said:

snailracer wrote:

Oops, sorry about that.

That was that. All done and dusted until you brought it back up.
A broad topic like this will encompass various issues around cycling, handlebar type being one of those issues. Should it be spread around various sections of the Bike Radar forum as each issue arrises? There was a digression about narrow chains, is there a narrow chains forum? Is there a step through frame forum?

SBIB, I don't get what you are saying. After a little rant about cars, you go onto say I made a good point originally, so, erm, thanks?

jonny_trousers

I suspect a large part of it will be frustration on the salesman's part too: they will have so many people coming in asking for the same thing that in the end they just offer it to straight away. It's a bit like when overweight people first join a gym: the PT can offer a well considered program, and can explain that exercise will help weight loss, but mostly it comes down to diet, yet that will not stop the fatties from doing 200 crunches with the assumption that it will burn off belly fat, or from spending two hours in the gym going around every single piece of equipment, one after the other, before giving up because it is boring and not yielding wonderful results after just three weeks. Joe Public thinks he knows best (and I suspect we are all guilty of thinking that way). It's no excuse, however. Far better to assume your customer actually wants the best advice available before you accept disappointment.

All of that said, I am a touch cynical of Evans'. Shortly after I decided I wanted to get a bike with drop bars and knowing only a little, I popped into Evans' for some advice. I was told that the bike I wanted was a Specialized road bike for beginners at around the £500 mark, absolutely nothing else. I questioned other options, but the salesboy was adamant it was the bike for me. I asked if he rode a Specialized himself to which he looked surprised and replied that he rode some kind of posh Italian thing. I have nothing against Specialized bikes and I am sure they are good at what they do, but I couldn't help wondering if Evans and Specialized have some kind of deal going. I left with the feeling that Evans wasn't the shop for me nor Specialized the bike manufacturer. Sale fail.

The Rookie

EKE_38BPM wrote:

The Beginner wrote:

I commute on a Hybrid as it suites what I want, my bars are set very low (and I've just lowered them by another 20mm by flipping the stem and losing 5mm of spacer), certainly a similar ride height to riding on the hoodz of drops, if not slightly lower.

Simon

Sounds to me like what you really want is a road bike, or at least not what you mean by one, after all it is a road bike it's not really suitable to be taken off road!

I'm not hating on hybrids (in this thread), I'm hating on the lack of a bike that there is a market for, for what seems to me to be no good reason.

It may sound like I want a road bike, I don't though......

You weren't hating on hybrids, others have, I advocate the right type of hybrid for the right person, and the right whatever (road to sit up and beg) for whoever else it's right for. I do agree many people end up with what looks like the wrong bikes, but is that because they go to a shop wanting the wrong thing, or saying they want the wrong thing, most salesman are human, they will take the 'wrong' sale over no sale.

Simon

rich_e

It's fairly obvious I think why Hybrids are so popular...

The majority of cyclists buying a bike for commuting are doing so through cycle 2 work schemes as a result of the explosion that has happened with Cycling in the UK in the past few years.

Many will have not ridden a bike since they were kids and so will have no idea what kind of bike they need.

As others have pointed out, most will steer clear of drop bars, because to somebody who doesn't regularly cycle they seem strange and for many associate them simply with racing. If you rode a bike as a kid, chances are you had flat MTB bars.

Next one of the most common things people do is want to buy a bike that does everything, they want a bike that they can still use a MTB. The trouble is (and I know this from friends) is that they buy what is a hybrid MTB on skinny tyres, yet never actually use is for MTBing. So despite those intentions, you've wasted some efficiency when something more road like would be better for commuting. Nobody thinks of this though when they have little experience with modern bikes... of course the most knowledgeable person is going to a decent sales assistant... but no matter what they say, if somebody says they want to also use it for MTBing but never do, then how is the sales assistant going to persuade them otherwise?

I'd also say that fixie bikes have become pretty huge now, you only have to look to see that the majority of manufacturers offer at least one now. People are going for them because they look simple and colorful, more for the fashion than the actual usage for cycling.

A friend of mine just the past week sold his hybrid to buy a Felt Hybrid, because he loved how the bike looked. It's only now that he's got it that he's finding he isn't really sure he actually likes riding fixed gear. So I reckon there are probably a lot of people buying fixie bikes without really knowing whether it's actually the bike for you.

turnerjohn

WisePranker wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

I blame the shops. Seem to want to sell hybrids etc to everyone.

But why do people want to buy them when they are not as good for the use they will be put to?

I don't get it.

Because the shops tell them they're what they want and they don't know any better so they believe the shop staff.
Also, when they are going to work on a morning they see loads of other people who've been through the same thing at a bike shop riding a hybrid so they think along the lines that if everyone else is using them, they must be the best bikes for commuting.

...isn't this how fashion starts ? It's not always the best but if enough people jump on the bandwagon or someone famous says its "cool" then everyone follows along like sheep ??!!!

snailracer

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

...
All of that said, I am a touch cynical of Evans'. Shortly after I decided I wanted to get a bike with drop bars and knowing only a little, I popped into Evans' for some advice. I was told that the bike I wanted was a Specialized road bike for beginners at around the £500 mark, absolutely nothing else. I questioned other options, but the salesboy was adamant it was the bike for me. I asked if he rode a Specialized himself to which he looked surprised and replied that he rode some kind of posh Italian thing. I have nothing against Specialized bikes and I am sure they are good at what they do, but I couldn't help wondering if Evans and Specialized have some kind of deal going. I left with the feeling that Evans wasn't the shop for me nor Specialized the bike manufacturer. Sale fail.

He showed you what you decided you wanted. If there was something else you were after, I can't figure it out from your post so I'm not surprised the Evans "salesboy" couldn't, either.

tailwindhome

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

...I couldn't help wondering if Evans and Specialized have some kind of deal going..

kingmho

Horses for courses! What are the road surfaces like on your local routes?

For years I commuted on a road bike, but since I relocated a couple of years ago I found the crappy local roads just too rough on my wrists, shoulders, neck and back, despite carbon forks and seat stays (though TBH I never really noticed any benefit from them).

I tried out the wife's budget hybrid, and my aches and pains just vanished! Aerodynamics of a brick, but after a while I actually started enjoying pootling along at 12mph. So I won't be knocking hybrids, they are a different riding experience from road bikes, but they work for me.

k.

kingmho

TailWindHome wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

...I couldn't help wondering if Evans and Specialized have some kind of deal going..

I think Specialized are just one of many brands Evans sells.
A Specialized store recently opened 2 doors along from the Evans store in Kingston-upon-Thames. I should ask the Evans store owner what he thinks of that next time I see him

k.

bails87

kingmho wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

...I couldn't help wondering if Evans and Specialized have some kind of deal going..

I think Specialized are just one of many brands Evans sells.
A Specialized store recently opened 2 doors along from the Evans store in Kingston-upon-Thames. I should ask the Evans store owner what he thinks of that next time I see him

k.

Ah, so Evans give Specialized some money and then all of a sudden some Specialized bikes turn up at Evans and they just happen to sell them to their customers. How very convenient.

It's quite clear that there's a conspiracy here.

tailwindhome

bails87 wrote:

kingmho wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

...I couldn't help wondering if Evans and Specialized have some kind of deal going..

I think Specialized are just one of many brands Evans sells.
A Specialized store recently opened 2 doors along from the Evans store in Kingston-upon-Thames. I should ask the Evans store owner what he thinks of that next time I see him

k.

Ah, so Evans give Specialized some money and then all of a sudden some Specialized bikes turn up at Evans and they just happen to sell them to their customers. How very convenient.

It's quite clear that there's a conspiracy here.

I think the 'salesboy' may have been getting cash from Evans to persuade him to sell some of the Specialized products.

Say nothing to no one

optimisticbiker

Evans have their own brand, Pinnacle, and are exclusive importers of some overseas brands such as the American Jamis (well known and respected over there, unknown here). Then they sell other brands such as Fuji, Cannondale, Specialized, Trek, etc...

It is possible that a saleperson recommends a brand for many reasons... maybe they get commission from a specific brand, or maybe they've had a pep-talk from management on which brands gives best margin... or maybe they just like the name...

Go to John Lewis for a TV or a cooker or a toaster... and tell me its any different... it's not...

(and I have no connection with Evans other than they're my LBS both at home and work)

nation

It might simply be that the bike they were pushing was the one that they had in stock there and then. No salesperson is going to recommend something that will have to be special ordered or whatever if there's a chance they can get you to part with your money immediately.

Alternatively they might just be a snob and be of the opinion that £500 road bikes are all the same.

jonny_trousers

snailracer wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

...
All of that said, I am a touch cynical of Evans'. Shortly after I decided I wanted to get a bike with drop bars and knowing only a little, I popped into Evans' for some advice. I was told that the bike I wanted was a Specialized road bike for beginners at around the £500 mark, absolutely nothing else. I questioned other options, but the salesboy was adamant it was the bike for me. I asked if he rode a Specialized himself to which he looked surprised and replied that he rode some kind of posh Italian thing. I have nothing against Specialized bikes and I am sure they are good at what they do, but I couldn't help wondering if Evans and Specialized have some kind of deal going. I left with the feeling that Evans wasn't the shop for me nor Specialized the bike manufacturer. Sale fail.

He showed you what you decided you wanted. If there was something else you were after, I can't figure it out from your post so I'm not surprised the Evans "salesboy" couldn't, either.

Eh? How do you know what I asked for?

I went in and explained that I wanted a drop-bar bike for fast commuting and occasional training rides. He showed me the Specialized. I asked what other options there were, he said none really and that the Specialized was the best for my purposes. Now, I don’t doubt that the Specialized might well have been a fine bike for the job, but he didn’t ask me my budget, what kind of roads I commuted, if I had a preference of frame material, what I needed to carry on my commute, where I saw my cycling desires heading. There must have been thirty different bikes that fitted my initial, vague request, yet he only offered me that one Specialized. It may have been because he saw me as an idiot who didn’t really know what he wanted so he just didn’t care, it may have been that Evans’ staff get an extra commission on every Specialized sold (as I was insinuating before, yet clearly not obviously enough for one or two of you), but either way, it was not the service I expected or wanted, which is why I went elsewhere. Clearer?

Jay dubbleU

So to sum up - people who don't know what they want are being sold the wrong bikes by salesmen who don't know what they're selling ? :roll:

snailracer

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

...
Eh? How do you know what I asked for?

I went in and explained that I wanted a drop-bar bike for fast commuting and occasional training rides. He showed me the Specialized. I asked what other options there were, he said none really and that the Specialized was the best for my purposes. Now, I don’t doubt that the Specialized might well have been a fine bike for the job, but he didn’t ask me my budget, what kind of roads I commuted, if I had a preference of frame material, what I needed to carry on my commute, where I saw my cycling desires heading. There must have been thirty different bikes that fitted my initial, vague request, yet he only offered me that one Specialized. It may have been because he saw me as an idiot who didn’t really know what he wanted so he just didn’t care, it may have been that Evans’ staff get an extra commission on every Specialized sold (as I was insinuating before, yet clearly not obviously enough for one or two of you), but either way, it was not the service I expected or wanted, which is why I went elsewhere. Clearer?

OK so was he close? What did you end up buying?

snailracer

Jay dubbleU wrote:

So to sum up - people who don't know what they want are being sold the wrong bikes by salesmen who don't know what they're selling ? :roll:

Heheh, I was once a guinea-pig "customer" for a sales training course run by one of my former employers. The trainees were taught which products in the company's lineup sat in which categories, but, much more interestingly, how to assess customers, based on their personality type, what decision-making processes they use, how important purchase price was vs long-term satisfaction, their expectations vs price, how accurately their requirements were expressed, their true vs expressed reasons for buying, etc. None of it was evil, the emphasis was to sell the customer something they would be happy with and stay happy with. Apparently, the trainees found I was dead easy to suss out :shock:

Valy

Why are hybrids looked down on?

jonny_trousers

snailracer wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

...
Eh? How do you know what I asked for?

I went in and explained that I wanted a drop-bar bike for fast commuting and occasional training rides. He showed me the Specialized. I asked what other options there were, he said none really and that the Specialized was the best for my purposes. Now, I don’t doubt that the Specialized might well have been a fine bike for the job, but he didn’t ask me my budget, what kind of roads I commuted, if I had a preference of frame material, what I needed to carry on my commute, where I saw my cycling desires heading. There must have been thirty different bikes that fitted my initial, vague request, yet he only offered me that one Specialized. It may have been because he saw me as an idiot who didn’t really know what he wanted so he just didn’t care, it may have been that Evans’ staff get an extra commission on every Specialized sold (as I was insinuating before, yet clearly not obviously enough for one or two of you), but either way, it was not the service I expected or wanted, which is why I went elsewhere. Clearer?

OK so was he close? What did you end up buying?

I bought a Specialized hybrid, but that’s beside the point.

You’d just love that to be true wouldn’t you? No. I took further, very helpful advice from people here. I then went to Pearson who gave me an excellent, non-patronising service and I decided that although I liked their Touché single speed and that it suited my purposes well, it wasn’t worth 650 quid. I then bought a steel framed single speed from Ebay that with a certain amount of customizing, and a run on using a second hand Touché in-between, I still love. Defend the boy in Evans all you like, but the bottom line is he lost a potential sale because he didn’t engage my needs as a customer fully, for whatever reason.

Jay dubbleU

Valy wrote:

Why are hybrids looked down on?

They're not - except by people who see a commute as a sporting event and not a journey to work

snailracer

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

snailracer wrote:

OK so was he close? What did you end up buying?

I bought a Specialized hybrid, but that’s beside the point.

You’d just love that to be true wouldn’t you? No. I took further, very helpful advice from people here. I then went to Pearson who gave me an excellent, non-patronising service and I decided that although I liked their Touché single speed and that it suited my purposes well, it wasn’t worth 650 quid. I then bought a steel framed single speed from Ebay that with a certain amount of customizing, and a run on using a second hand Touché in-between, I still love. Defend the boy in Evans all you like, but the bottom line is he lost a potential sale because he didn’t engage my needs as a customer fully, for whatever reason.

So you bought a ss frame off ebay and "customized" it? Into what? Are you normally this opaque?
Perhaps the "boy" in Evans decided they didn't have what you wanted and didn't want to waste everyone's time?

MonkeyMonster

Jay dubbleU wrote:

Valy wrote:

Why are hybrids looked down on?

They're not - except by people who see a commute as a sporting event and not a journey to work

very very true