The cycling industry are a bunch of

snailracer

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

I blame the shops. Seem to want to sell hybrids etc to everyone.

But why do people want to buy them when they are not as good for the use they will be put to?

I don't get it.

Hybrids are excellent for riders who prefer a high handlebar position. In other words, the vast majority.

Kieran_Burns

Down the Road wrote:

Why a cross bike.

They don't go and they don't stop.

PS A tricross is neither a cross bike (BB too low) or a road bike. Like buying a pair of Nike running shoes - well marketed but not any good for the job advertised.

Stick a pair of flat bars on it and it is a hybrid.

Now THIS is a bike snob

snailracer

One from Sheldon Brown's collection:

jamesco

Fireblade96 wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

liars!
.....

How/why did the cycling industry persuade innocent cyclists that more gears are better, that steel is rubbish, that MTB style frames are what you want for on-road use?

In the same way that the car industry has persuaded people that they need a DiscoRover to go shopping with. Eminently unsuitable for its actual use, but come The Apocalypse, they'll be able to drive through anything.

Dude, I would have used the exact same example to make the exact opposite point. In the UK there seems to be an obsession with using the most high-performance option available, despite the fact that a little step down in performance - and no step down in real-world use - would make a huge practical difference.

Look at the Ferraris & Lambos driving around Chelsea - uncomfortable, noisy, expensive and can barely get over speed bump. Sports bikes (motorbikes) are an obsession, despite the crowded roads and wrist-breaking position making them a baffling choice.

Same goes for road-bikes, IMHO. City roads are crowded, poorly paved, frequently wet and always require the ability to stop in a second. Road bikes are nice, but just too focused; a few small changes that impact potential (but very rarely realised speed) make a *huge* difference to everyday ridability, and result in a hybrid.

People are free to get what they like (and should get what makes them happy), but most people who cycle wouldn't know what an 'FCN' is or give a toss if they did, they just want to get where they're going with as little hassle as possible.

il_principe

jamesco wrote:

Same goes for road-bikes, IMHO. City roads are crowded, poorly paved, frequently wet and always require the ability to stop in a second. Road bikes are nice, but just too focused; a few small changes that impact potential (but very rarely realised speed) make a *huge* difference to everyday ridability, and result in a hybrid.

I'll bet you that my Campag centaur brake equipped SS roadie commuter will stop better & faster than pretty much any hybrid I see out and about in London.

sketchley

I have a hybrid. I like my hybrid. Except when there is a headwind, or a want to go fast, or the position actually stop being confatable and want to get lower and go faster.

It's a compremise, sometimes (in winter in the rain) it works. Other times it doesn't. I want to have both a Hybrid and Road bike then choose depending on conditions which one I ride.

Down the Road

Strange how we never think to swap the stem over to get a lower position on a hybrid.

Might give the best of both worlds.

Idea of a hybrid is the best of a road bike (bigger wheels more agressive geometry) with the best of a MTB (robust frame high BB good brakes flat bars)

This is why they are recommended for most people for road use or commuting


FCN number - what a load of crap!!!!

il_principe

Down the Road wrote:

FCN number - what a load of crap!!!!

There's a whole load of "missing the point" going on in this forum these days.

jamesco

Il Principe wrote:

I'll bet you that my Campag centaur brake equipped SS roadie commuter will stop better & faster than pretty much any hybrid I see out and about in London.

And I'll take that bet. Calliper brakes (which cost over a hundred quid!) just don't out-perform disk brakes, especially after rain or the muck of commuting hitting the rim.

sketchley

Down the Road wrote:

Strange how we never think to swap the stem over to get a lower position on a hybrid.

Actually this was discussed at length in the pub on Friday. There's a blooming big spacer on my hybrid, plus the stem could be inverted to give lower riding position. But that would also compremise the nice upright ride in the rain in the winter. Also my hybrid is a compremise bike which currently has fast thin tyres on it. I'd much rather out some bigger rubber back on it for bad weather and by road bike for going fast and low.

In other word stop trying to make the hybrid something it isn't (a road bike) and start treating it for what it is (a nice commuter bike).

il_principe

jamesco wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

I'll bet you that my Campag centaur brake equipped SS roadie commuter will stop better & faster than pretty much any hybrid I see out and about in London.

And I'll take that bet. Calliper brakes (which cost over a hundred quid!) just don't out-perform disk brakes, especially after rain or the muck of commuting hitting the rim.

And how many disc-brake equipped hybrids do you see on your commute? 'cos I hardly ever do... hence the point of my post.

jamesco

Il Principe wrote:

jamesco wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

I'll bet you that my Campag centaur brake equipped SS roadie commuter will stop better & faster than pretty much any hybrid I see out and about in London.

And I'll take that bet. Calliper brakes (which cost over a hundred quid!) just don't out-perform disk brakes, especially after rain or the muck of commuting hitting the rim.

And how many disc-brake equipped hybrids do you see on your commute? 'cos I hardly ever do... hence the point of my post.

...and how many "centaur brake equipped SS roadie" bikes do you see every day? Probably fewer than disk-brake equipped hybrids.

Walk into an Evans and choose between their highest-selling road bike and their highest-selling hybrid. Which do you think brakes better?

bails87

After rain if I grab both brakes (shimano 105) on my roadie I'll lock up the wheels and fall off. Road bikes just don't have the grip to effectively use the power of disc brakes. For CX I see the point if you're riding through deep mud, but I ride down 'dirty' country lanes all the time and the grip between the tyre and tarmac will run out before the grip between brake and rim.

SimonAH

Sketchley wrote:

I have a hybrid. I like my hybrid. Except when there is a headwind, or a want to go fast, or the position actually stop being confatable and want to get lower and go faster.

It's a compremise, sometimes (in winter in the rain) it works. Other times it doesn't. I want to have both a Hybrid and Road bike then choose depending on conditions which one I ride.

This is why I am now riding on bullhorns. Flat bars for pootling, slide forward to an almost flat backed position for putting the hammer down or fighting a headwind. IMO (which changes frequently) an ideal compromise.

il_principe

jamesco wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

jamesco wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

I'll bet you that my Campag centaur brake equipped SS roadie commuter will stop better & faster than pretty much any hybrid I see out and about in London.

And I'll take that bet. Calliper brakes (which cost over a hundred quid!) just don't out-perform disk brakes, especially after rain or the muck of commuting hitting the rim.

And how many disc-brake equipped hybrids do you see on your commute? 'cos I hardly ever do... hence the point of my post.

...and how many "centaur brake equipped SS roadie" bikes do you see every day? Probably fewer than disk-brake equipped hybrids.

Walk into an Evans and choose between their highest-selling road bike and their highest-selling hybrid. Which do you think brakes better?

I rarely see discs at all on my commute, and when I do they are on MTB's. You can build up - or have built up an SS roadie for cheaper than most disc eqiupped hybrids and with better rim brakes. A quick search on Evans and the cheapest disc equipped hybrid I can see is £450, and that's with really nasty Hayes brakes. The next one up costs £649. So £50 less than building mine up cost me, and I made mine more expensive by adding some bling Cinelli contact points and nice Halo wheels.

notsoblue

SimonAH wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

I have a hybrid. I like my hybrid. Except when there is a headwind, or a want to go fast, or the position actually stop being confatable and want to get lower and go faster.

It's a compremise, sometimes (in winter in the rain) it works. Other times it doesn't. I want to have both a Hybrid and Road bike then choose depending on conditions which one I ride.

This is why I am now riding on bullhorns. Flat bars for pootling, slide forward to an almost flat backed position for putting the hammer down or fighting a headwind. IMO (which changes frequently) an ideal compromise.

Don't bullhorns pretty much just replicate positioning your hands on the hoods of a drop bar?

jamesco

Il Principe wrote:

I rarely see discs at all on my commute, and when I do they are on MTB's. You can build up - or have built up an SS roadie for cheaper than most disc eqiupped hybrids and with better rim brakes. A quick search on Evans and the cheapest disc equipped hybrid I can see is £450, and that's with really nasty Hayes brakes. The next one up costs £649. So £50 less than building mine up cost me, and I made mine more expensive by adding some bling Cinelli contact points and nice Halo wheels.

That's the same argument that some people who build their own computers (sometimes) use, and it has the same flaw - it's only cheaper to build your own if your time is worth nothing. Anyway, yours is a single-speed bike - of course it should be on the cheap side, it's only got one gear and can't go uphill!

You're a cyclist-enthusiast, which is great, 'cause cycling is great, I just think that there's a chance that enthusiasts get a bit caught up in their joy of riding and lose a little perspective. Most people that ride in the city do so 'cause it's convenient for them, so reliability and no hassle are a lot more important than a wee bit of hypothetical performance.

SimonAH

notsoblue wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

I have a hybrid. I like my hybrid. Except when there is a headwind, or a want to go fast, or the position actually stop being confatable and want to get lower and go faster.

It's a compremise, sometimes (in winter in the rain) it works. Other times it doesn't. I want to have both a Hybrid and Road bike then choose depending on conditions which one I ride.

This is why I am now riding on bullhorns. Flat bars for pootling, slide forward to an almost flat backed position for putting the hammer down or fighting a headwind. IMO (which changes frequently) an ideal compromise.

Don't bullhorns pretty much just replicate positioning your hands on the hoods of a drop bar?

Not really, the way I've got them set up. The flats are fairly low and forward already so the horns are low and forward giving you a back position that's not far off being on drops rather than hoods

il_principe

jamesco wrote:

That's the same argument that some people who build their own computers (sometimes) use, and it has the same flaw - it's only cheaper to build your own if your time is worth nothing. Anyway, yours is a single-speed bike - of course it should be on the cheap side, it's only got one gear and can't go uphill!

You're a cyclist-enthusiast, which is great, 'cause cycling is great, I just think that there's a chance that enthusiasts get a bit caught up in their joy of riding and lose a little perspective. Most people that ride in the city do so 'cause it's convenient for them, so reliability and no hassle are a lot more important than a wee bit of hypothetical performance.

Except I didn't build it. I paid an expert to do that and it was still cheaper than most disc equipped hybrids (not too mention better) £700 all in IIRC, could have paid less with less bling.

I really don't get your point, this thread is about the industry selling people the wrong thing. I don't see how a disc brake equipped, Hybrid with 28 + gears is the right choice for commuting in London. It certainly won't provide "reliability and no hassle" because cheap hybrids come with cheap components that will not last, disc brakes that are hard to adjust and maintain etc... so the buyer ends up spending more getting the damn thing serviced.

Whereas a SS roadie is light, reliable and hassle free. Hills are about the rider, but if you're not strong enough to manage London's hills then 3 speed hub geared bike would do fine - still a better choice than a heavy, poorly specced hybrid.

As an 'enthusiast' I ride the bike best suited to my London commute, and guess what, I started out on a Hybrid. Soon realised it wasn't the best of choices.

clarkey cat

if more people got rid of their hybrids and bought bling SS/FG bikes instead I might keep my scalp more often so I'm with Il Principe.

ndru

I second that. I have five gears in my Pashley, and I now feel I could do away with 3. I would recommend rollerbrakes though - although they don't stop you on a dime they need no maintenance whatsoever.
I have though long ago about testing different bicycle shops by going there as a total noob and asking them for bicycle advice. I haven't had time to carry this out, but I can really predict the outcome. Because for some reason bikes are sport/leisure equipement and not transport people are getting machines that have 20% usefulness of a real bicycle.

il_principe

clarkey cat wrote:

if more people got rid of their hybrids and bought bling SS/FG bikes instead I might keep my scalp more often so I'm with Il Principe.

Problem is there are a lot of total cack SS/FG bikes doing the rounds atm, eg: http://www.createbikes.com/

clarkey cat

I have a hybrid. When I got it I only had a 3 mile commute and so wanted something I could ride while wearing a suit and not feel like a plonker. It was only £200. Now it takes the little man on the back for rides down the river.
The SS is for fun and being silly and the Condor for the grim business of getting the 20-odd miles to work done. I love them all equally (but the Condor more equally).

jamesco

Il Principe wrote:

Except I didn't build it. I paid an expert to do that and it was still cheaper than most disc equipped hybrids (not too mention better) £700 all in IIRC, could have paid less with less bling.

I really don't get your point, this thread is about the industry selling people the wrong thing. I don't see how a disc brake equipped, Hybrid with 28 + gears is the right choice for commuting in London. It certainly won't provide "reliability and no hassle" because cheap hybrids come with cheap components that will not last, disc brakes that are hard to adjust and maintain etc... so the buyer ends up spending more getting the damn thing serviced.

Whereas a SS roadie is light, reliable and hassle free. Hills are about the rider, but if you're not strong enough to manage London's hills then 3 speed hub geared bike would do fine - still a better choice than a heavy, poorly specced hybrid.

As an 'enthusiast' I ride the bike best suited to my London commute, and guess what, I started out on a Hybrid. Soon realised it wasn't the best of choices.

£700 for an expert to build you an on-spec bike sounds like a fantastic deal and no wonder your happy with it, as it's exactly what you were after. My point is that the majority of people aren't after that and would be hard done by if that's what they ended up with as it wouldn't suit their needs.

If bike store staff steered people toward single-speed roadies as their first commuting bike, it'd be a disaster. A few people would love them, most would hate them. My girlfriend bought a bike a few weeks ago and the staff (cycle-surgery) were excellent, asking good questions about what type of riding she will be doing and suggesting appropriate bikes without being pushy.

My hybrid (Trek T30) cost £250 and has required one bottom-bracket, one chain ring, a few chains & cassettes and brake-pads in it's five years, all of which are much cheaper than road-bike equivalents. It's been ultra-reliable, no hassle.

davmaggs

Purchasing as any person involved in commerce will tell you is full of factors that are not rational, and anyone that says that they came to their decision purely on logic is telling fibs including everyone on this forum without fail. That is why brands exist and the concept is covered from day one of any marketing course.

Going to work on a high-end road bike is probably as rational as using a Suburu rally car for the Tesco run. We probably all own gadgets that have more features or power than we 'need', but we bought them and used some kind of mental criteria to justify it.

gilesjuk

TailWindHome wrote:

More gears equals a better bike

FACT

For a performance bike exclusively used for racing yes. For a commute to work bike it ends up being costly to run.

11 speed requires very narrow expensive chain and it clogs up with cruft a lot easier than a bike less cogs. Not to mention more precise components.

More gears is more range, but if your commute is flat then you don't need as many.

il_principe

gilesjuk wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

More gears equals a better bike

FACT

For a performance bike exclusively used for racing yes. For a commute to work bike it ends up being costly to run.

11 speed requires very narrow expensive chain and it clogs up with cruft a lot easier than a bike less cogs. Not to mention more precise components.

More gears is more range, but if your commute is flat then you don't need as many.

Cafewanda

Il Principe wrote:

Cafewanda wrote:

Il Principe wrote:

I blame the shops. Seem to want to sell hybrids etc to everyone.

Oh yes. Well agree with that one! This forum has been an education. Just wish I'd met you lot before I bought my THREE hybrids, as much as I love the current one.

*Banks Wanda's admission for future usage.*

3 Hybrids = Sucker for punishment.

In my defence the first two were WAY too big and I had no knowledge of bikes/sizingforshrimps/flat bar v drops.

First one: Evans as a trustingtheshopstaff, older new cyclist. Second one: local bike shop once realised first was too big and got fedup with weight up and down 4 flights of stairs.

Current one bought before bike fit and the knowledge that toptube length is the driving factor for me as I can always adjust the seatpost or get a longer one. Plus I'd forgotten that Specialized did a smaller size :oops:

stuaff

gilesjuk wrote:

11 speed requires very narrow expensive chain and it clogs up with cruft a lot easier than a bike less cogs. Not to mention more precise components.
.

Twaddle.

jamesco

StuAff wrote:

gilesjuk wrote:

11 speed requires very narrow expensive chain and it clogs up with cruft a lot easier than a bike less cogs. Not to mention more precise components.
.

Twaddle.

11-speed chain - £35.99 to £44.99
8-speed chain - £10.58 - £26.99

The 11-speed chain tool is £123.31!

(all prices from Wiggle)