Midsomer Racist?

rick_chasey

cycladianpirate wrote:

Say the words then...in your view the BBC Asian Network is racist.

Did you not read anything I wrote in this thread?

To make that comparison is to miss the point entirely. It's ALL about context.

rick_chasey

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

Out of interest have any of you actually listened to the interview with mr May, becasue he does actually say

"we are a cosmopolitan society in this country but if you watched midsomer you wouldn't think so"

He also suggests that the creative decisions for midsomer are largely driven by market forces and a need to appeal to foreign markets with quaint stereotypical perceptions of englishnss.

He willingly acknowledges the shows cultural shortcomings.

Hardly racist.

That's the point. It's a twofold issue. Firstly - he's making a comment about the UK audience, and perceptions of the UK - and one that doesnt make it come out in a good light. I know friends here who blushed when they read the comment because deep down, they know it to have an element of truth, and that isn't popular.

Secondly, the guy is clearly explicitly aware of this and has made a decision, not based on the morality of equiality, (since if he did, he'd not have kept it consistently white, according to his logic), but on the basis of cash, because it sells better. That's a moral judgement he made, and the public outcry suggests that this was an incorrect decision. I'm inclined to agree.

You don't necessarily have to be a bad person or be immoral to be racist and make racist actions, nor does soemthing racist necessarily have to have mallace to be considered racist. People need to get over the scary word and take it for what it literally means - discrimination on the basis of ethnicity or religion. The census is racist by that definition, since there is a discrimination on both counts.

rolf_f

Comical really. The concept that the fictional representation of a rural village should in someway be representative ethnically of a large city probably just reflects the fact that a lot of folk never get out of the city and don't realise what the country is like.

Basically, they have no idea what they are talking about.

Still, all good fun. Another recent bit of PC lunacy is the line that there are too many straight girls playing lesbians. Now, I thought the point about acting was that you are, errrr, acting and it doesn't take long to work out were this would lead.

If you need to be gay to play a gay, then by rights, no gay person should be allowed to play a straight person nor, indeed, anything else that they aren't (perhaps actors shouldn't be allowed to play any role other than that of an actor). Probably every actor and actress would end up signing statements that they are bisexual.........

I think that maybe some folk forget that everyone is a minority in some way or another. Are there sufficient hipsters in Midsomer Murders?...............

rick_chasey

Rolf F wrote:

I think that maybe some folk forget that everyone is a minority in some way or another. Are there sufficient hipsters in Midsomer Murders?...............

Has there been centuries of hipster opression? Of hipster enslavement?

I don't see any reports on the news suggesting an assault was "Hipster motivated"?

It's not really the same is it?

de_sisti

Weejie54 wrote:

Brian True May was referring to a perception of a last bastion of englishness, not his perception but A perception that foreign audiences found appealing, and not of britishness but englishness as depicted in novels and stories from 70-80 years ago.

Lots of people from outside of the UK assume that if you're not white, you're not British,
I know from experience.

As a black man, when speaking to non British people (mainly from Europe), the conversation
will go something like this:

Them: Where are you from?
Me: Here, in Cheltenham.
Them: No, I mean where are you really from?
Me: I was brought up in Manchester, all of my relatives still live there.
Them: No, where are you parents from?
Me: Do you recognise a British accent?
Them: Yes, but were you born here, which part of Africa are your parents from?
:roll:
The above exchange really happened, about 18 months ago when I was laid up in hospital
and speaking to a woman who came round the wards selling newspapers, toiletries etc.
(She was originally from Croatia). I had a similar exchange with a (white) woman from
Zimbabwe whilst doing some shopping in Waitrose a couple of weeks ago. :roll:

Weejie54

Comical really. The concept that the fictional representation of a rural village should in someway be representative ethnically of a large city probably just reflects the fact that a lot of folk never get out of the city and don't realise what the country is like.

Basically, they have no idea what they are talking about.

I think you have missed the point. It's not that anyone (at least I haven't been given that impression) is suggesting that there should be a representation to reflect a city, but they are referring to the comments made by a producer when asked about SOME representation.

It's the comments, not the programme. If the silly tw@t had kept his mouth shut, it would have just carried on and nobody would have given a monkey's.


Oh, and I am not a city dweller, was not born in a city, and have only lived in a city for a brief period in my lifetime.

Weejie54

yes you will get Indian restaurants in places that have takeaways, the little villages around my folks place don't the larger market town does, but even so thats a few famillies compared to a small town of white.

If I'm not mistaken, the series concerned is about a county, and, within the county, at least one market town. Not even "a few families" are seen getting their messages.

Maybe all the non-whites in the villages you mention are scared to go out for all the murders that are taking place among the toffs and hooray-Henrys.

rolf_f

Weejie54 wrote:

I think you have missed the point. It's not that anyone (at least I haven't been given that impression) is suggesting that there should be a representation to reflect a city, but they are referring to the comments made by a producer when asked about SOME representation.

Don't think so but you may have missed mine! My point was that I suspect the people making these comments actually genuinely believe that the difference in ethnic representation in a programme like Midsomer Murders is racist rather than simply reflecting a different cross section of the community than they are familiar with. MM I suspect is ethnically pretty accurate. It could be argued that it would be racist to over-reflect ethnic minorities in such settings. Chances are, if MM did once feature one black character, sat in the background in the pub, then that would be a more than representative representation (in terms of what you'd see in reality) to cover the entire run of MM!

rolf_f

Rick Chasey wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

I think that maybe some folk forget that everyone is a minority in some way or another. Are there sufficient hipsters in Midsomer Murders?...............

Has there been centuries of hipster opression? Of hipster enslavement?

I don't see any reports on the news suggesting an assault was "Hipster motivated"?

It's not really the same is it?

No, but what has the past to do with anything? Are we arguing that there should be more ethnic minority presence on Midsomer Murders as compensation for the slave trade?!!

Surely either you want representation of all minorities to make some PC point or you want realism? (not that MM has much to do with realism......)

Weejie54

Chances are, if MM did once feature one black character, sat in the background in the pub, then that would be a more than representative representation (in terms of what you'd see in reality) to cover the entire run of MM!

Or driving a tractor?

http://www.theblackfarmer.com/

RichN95.

Here's a question. Someone makes a serious fictional film about the Tour de France. In the shots of the peloton there are plenty black and indian riders visible.

Do you:

a) not notice
b) think - 'the filmmakers clearly haven't watched the Tour'
c) think - 'stupid tokenism'
d) think - 'it's great that casting hasn't taken reality into account and given everyone a chance'

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Here's a question. Someone makes a serious fictional film about the Tour de France. In the shots of the peloton there are plenty black and indian riders visible.

Do you:

a) not notice
b) think - 'the filmmakers clearly haven't watched the Tour'
c) think - 'stupid tokenism'
d) think - 'it's great that casting hasn't taken reality into account and given everyone a chance'

This is the point: .












<--- This is where you are

EKE_38BPM

If its fictional, why couldn't there be black or Indian riders. Just because there haven't been any in the past doesn't mean there couldn't be in the future or in a fictional story.

As I've said before (and I'll stop harping on about it now) my objection is not allowing a whatever race actor on screen just because of their race.

In RichN95's scenario, suppose there was a team made up of Kenyan riders? Based on Kenya's long distance runners performance, the rest of the peloton would be at the bottom of the Col whilst the Kenyans are getting kissed on the podium whilst holding a toy lion.
That would make an interesting film.

Edit: Cav would be in the wake of the Jamaican sprinters too.

CiB

EKE_38BPM wrote:

...my objection is not allowing a whatever race actor on screen just because of their race.

I think this is where the two viewpoints diverge. Different races are not being disallowed, banned, blocked, whatever you want to call it. It's simply that within the context of the location, the plots, the now well-established characterisations and - yes - the target audience, there is no requirement to add some token 'other races' to MM.

Everything about the damn show is aimed at that particular demographic that likes to imagine that England is, was or still could be that way. Other colours aren't blocked, they're just not required, in the same way that I'm not required in a ladies hockey team. I'm not barred from that because they hate men, it's because there is no requirement for someone like me in a ladies hockey team. It's not the end of my world. I don't see why it's such a big issue on the context of a particular drama that works for a lot of people. Maybe I should watch it myself now to see if I can spot any injustices going on there.

rick_chasey

CiB wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

...my objection is not allowing a whatever race actor on screen just because of their race.

I think this is where the two viewpoints diverge.

There are more than 2 viewpoints.

Weejie54

Different races are not being disallowed, banned, blocked, whatever you want to call it. It's simply that within the context of the location, the plots, the now well-established characterisations and - yes - the target audience, there is no requirement to add some token 'other races' to MM.

I think there is an ongoing investigation to establish whether there was a barring or not.
It stems from the man's words:

Mr True-May told the magazine: "We are a cosmopolitan society in this country, but if you watch Midsomer you wouldn't think so.

"I've never been picked up on that, but quite honestly I wouldn't want to change it," he said.

Of his all-white portrayal of rural life in Britain's murder capital he said: "Maybe I'm not politically correct."

The programme - which has run for 14 series - appealed to a "certain audience", he said.

Mr True-May added: "We just don't have ethnic minorities involved. Because it wouldn't be the English village with them. It just wouldn't work."

Asked why "Englishness" could not include other races who are well represented in modern society, he said: "Well, it should do, and maybe I'm not politically correct.

"I'm trying to make something that appeals to a certain audience, which seems to succeed. And I don't want to change it."

One could be forgiven for having a different viewpoint than yours.

Pross

Am I missing something here? My understanding is that producers and casting directors make a decision on who gets the role in a programme and yet in this instance it is the writer who gets all the flack. OK, he may have said to them that he wanted a sterotypical English country setting, cricket on the village green, a church full of women in flowery dresses etc. etc. and (rightly or wrongly) that black people would not fall into the sterotype but the ultimate decision on who to recruit would not be in his hands so presumably other members of the production team have agreed with his decision and yet they aren't getting any stick. Does anyone know if there are non-white people working on the crew? If so surely that dismisses the notion that there is anything racist in the recruitment policy? As I said in my first post and others have said since his wording is clumsy but like Cleat Eastwood I believe that what he was trying to say was that the series is trying to portray a vision of 'Englishness' that no longer exists (and probably never did) but which a lot of people outside of the UK possibly perceive it to be like. It's not as if he is writing roles for black people within the show but only as drug dealers, murderers etc.

Weejie54

Am I missing something here? My understanding is that producers and casting directors make a decision on who gets the role in a programme and yet in this instance it is the writer who gets all the flack.

Perhaps you are missing the little factoid that he is the executive producer of the programme.

Pross

Ah, right - I only heard him referred to as the original writer when this all blew up, makes a bit more sense now but still think it comes down to interpretation of his comments and only he knows exactly what he meant. He should have thought a bit more before answering though and picked out the trap!

peanut1978

WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT WILLIS!!!?!

cycladianpirate

Rick Chasey wrote:

cycladianpirate wrote:

Say the words then...in your view the BBC Asian Network is racist.

Did you not read anything I wrote in this thread?

To make that comparison is to miss the point entirely. It's ALL about context.

Err....that comment wasn't actually directed at you. It was addressed fully by the person concerned (if you care to read the thread.... )

rick_chasey

cycladianpirate wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

cycladianpirate wrote:

Say the words then...in your view the BBC Asian Network is racist.

Did you not read anything I wrote in this thread?

To make that comparison is to miss the point entirely. It's ALL about context.

Err....that comment wasn't actually directed at you. It was addressed fully by the person concerned (if you care to read the thread.... )

I never said it was, but my point addressed precisely the issue you're mentioning, rendering it beside the point.

Le Commentateur

Surely either you want representation of all minorities to make some PC point or you want realism? (not that MM has much to do with realism......)

But the point is that the world of MM is a surreal one and not ‘reality’, hence the insane body count.

cycladianpirate

Rick Chasey wrote:

cycladianpirate wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

cycladianpirate wrote:

Say the words then...in your view the BBC Asian Network is racist.

Did you not read anything I wrote in this thread?

To make that comparison is to miss the point entirely. It's ALL about context.

Err....that comment wasn't actually directed at you. It was addressed fully by the person concerned (if you care to read the thread.... )

I never said it was, but my point addressed precisely the issue you're mentioning, rendering it beside the point.

I shall remember in future that you are the final arbiter on all things.

rick_chasey

cycladianpirate wrote:

I shall remember in future that you are the final arbiter on all things.

Glad we can agree on that.

Frank the tank

Anyway, there's this Englishman, Scotsman and an Irishman.

RichN95.

Frank the tank wrote:

Anyway, there's this Englishman, Scotsman and an Irishman.

The Welsh excluded yet again. Racist.

EKE_38BPM

Frank the tank wrote:

Anyway, there's this Englishman, Scotsman and an Irishman.

... and a Welshman sued the comedian for not being allowed into the joke. Blatant discrimination!

EKE_38BPM

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Anyway, there's this Englishman, Scotsman and an Irishman.

... and a Welshman sued the comedian for not being allowed into the joke. Blatant discrimination!

Oh come on people, it was a joke. We can still joke, right?

daviesee

EKE_38BPM wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Anyway, there's this Englishman, Scotsman and an Irishman.

... and a Welshman sued the comedian for not being allowed into the joke. Blatant discrimination!

Oh come on people, it was a joke. We can still joke, right?

Bernard Manning would have said so :shock:

I do think that being PC is complete tosh though. Everyone has their own moral level. Some are high, some are low.