Midsomer Racist?

cycladianpirate

Weejie54 wrote:

If i make a film about tigers it aint going to have any feckin lions in it.- Deal with it.

Lions and tigers are different species. Deal with it.

What??? I struggle to understand whether your objection is to what was said by the producer in question or to his recruitment policies. Are you perchance part of the "Equality Industry"?

estampida

Maybe they should wrap it up with a feature lenght show, with special star jack klugman (from quincy), and they could have a moral to the story (like in Quincy)

TheTroll

Weejie54 wrote:

OK, so now it's a platform for declaring who lives in the most white village. FWIW, I have lived in Scottish Highland and Island villages, and at present am in a quiet rural area in a small village. Every place I have stayed in has not been exclusively white (and never could be).

Is that because you is black?

TuckerUK

I live in Norfolk (just one eye, and the same surname as everyone else), and I've only ever seen three black people here where I live. All in this weeks paper for supply of drug offences...I kid you not.

Maybe Midsumer should have an episode to reflect this?

guinea

Weejie54 wrote:

OK, so now it's a platform for declaring who lives in the most white village. FWIW, I have lived in Scottish Highland and Island villages, and at present am in a quiet rural area in a small village. Every place I have stayed in has not been exclusively white (and never could be).

I've never seen a black person living on the Isle of Skye. There were some Asians who the cafe off the square for a while, but they're not there anymore.

In the main, the 'ethnic' population of the UK live in cities and large towns. So, if he's being representative, in my experience, there should be few non-whites.

I'm a guardian reading liberal lefty but, try as I might, I can't see a problem here. The Daily Mash nailed it.

We get programmes commissioned exclusively for lots of demographics. Male, female. young old, black, Asian, and so it seems, white. When the BBC cater for their Asian audience, by making an entire chanel, staffed by Asians for Asians, that's ok, but when ITV create a programme for white middle Englanders that's bad?

This is multiculturalism. Deal with it.

estampida

How about an Asian Quincy that works as a country vet like in all creaturs great and small, gets murderd.

then the real quincy and bergerac, solve the mystery

BI winning, bro

Homer J

Weejie54 wrote:

If i make a film about tigers it aint going to have any feckin lions in it.- Deal with it.

Lions and tigers are different species. Deal with it.

(clearly you missed the point)

FWIW - i knew a bloke from a place called Mac Duff in the north of scotland. Never seen a "black/coloured" person till he came down south, that was may 1990. He said if one walked through the village they would have been in the paper the next day.

estampida

no clearly you do,

its all fiction, how can you apply logic to it, cos next week even if bergerac some how was seen driving off a cliff (like in Mcguyver) he would some how survive.

There is some issue with equal rights as they would have to audition all race of actors but only use white actors.

How that goes through the HR of the film company can only be justifid by the producers...

I take it the reasons did not outway current employment policy

Weejie54

What??? I struggle to understand whether your objection is to what was said by the producer in question or to his recruitment policies. Are you perchance part of the "Equality Industry"?

I have no issue with it except that he made racist comments:

He won't employ non-whites because he believes his little production is "the last bastion of englishness". From this we can deduce that he believes non-whites to also be non-English.

He suggests that he wants to keep it that way.

He also says suggests that you won't see a white face in Slough - Slough has a majority of white people.

If his "recruitment policy" is based on his "principles" he is breaking the law.
He had to go. Simple.

I've never seen a black person living on the Isle of Skye. There were some Asians who the cafe off the square for a while, but they're not there anymore.

Who said "black"? This is about non-whites.
As far as I'm aware, Portree has an Indian restaurant and a Chinese takeaway.
At least they are both listed as still being in business. You'll find an Asian doctor in Broadford. I believe Donal Dubh is black too.

FWIW - i knew a bloke from a place called Mac Duff in the north of scotland. Never seen a "black/coloured" person till he came down south, that was may 1990. He said if one walked through the village they would have been in the paper the next day.

If your "bloke" suggests that MacDuff is a "village" he's an idiot. Also a blind idiot. MacDuff had an Indian GP in the 90s - that much I do know.

(clearly you missed the point)

Nope. I think you have yet to grasp the point. If you can show that Caroline Graham wrote "Midsomer Murders" as a white-only novel, then you might have a point. It would be irrelevant anyway, as this concerns the utterances of the producer, not the recruitment policy.

We get programmes commissioned exclusively for lots of demographics. Male, female. young old, black, Asian, and so it seems, white. When the BBC cater for their Asian audience, by making an entire chanel, staffed by Asians for Asians, that's ok, but when ITV create a programme for white middle Englanders that's bad?

I don't recall ITV ever suggesting that Midsomer Murders was a "programme for White Middle Englanders". It was when it was suggested that it was void of non-whites to the producer that he gave clearly a clearly racist explanation. That is the issue. Not the actual programme.

Is that because you is black?

I ain't black but I ain't white either - neither am I a "foreigner".

Are you perchance part of the "Equality Industry"?

No. Are you a racist tw@t?

StillGoing

Fek me it's fictional. A county where the daily homicide rate is on a par with the national average. It deals with the eccentricity of in-bred English county sets who frequent the hunting ball and garden parties. Now maybe the producer didn't explain himself very well, but why should he? The rag that posed the question were fishing for a story and got it thanks to the reactions of individuals who need a bit of mozolla with the chip on their shoulders.

Weejie54

Now maybe the producer didn't explain himself very well, but why should he?

He explained himself quite adequately.

Pross

philthy3 wrote:

Fek me it's fictional. A county where the daily homicide rate is on a par with the national average. It deals with the eccentricity of in-bred English county sets who frequent the hunting ball and garden parties. Now maybe the producer didn't explain himself very well, but why should he? The rag that posed the question were fishing for a story and got it thanks to the reactions of individuals who need a bit of mozolla with the chip on their shoulders.

+1

neilo23

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/th ... 42914.html

mroli

Grew up in a very small Oxon village. Mum is Japanese, there were a Bajan couple in the village (one white and one black). Now an Aussie family and an asian family in the village (and my mum still).

Wife also grew up in Oxon village. Many french people due to restaurant/hotel in village. Brother in law is Lebanese. Also Americans living in village (and Scots).

Chances of ANY Oxon village being all "British" - very, very small IMHO.

Le Commentateur

I've always thought it was a bit of a lampoon aimed at the UKIP-type Little Englanders.

Someone should do a wind-up episode where absolutely everyone is non-white or former Eastern bloc, including the extras in the background.

estampida

some 1 has seen the light.......

and he did give some good reasons, but behind the scenes?

did he jump before a push....

EKE_38BPM

I remember, as a nine year old school kid in the late 80s, walking through a village in Shropshire on a school trip and the locals were gawking at me. Literally pointing at me, with their mouth agape.
I turned to one of my schoolmates and, in a deliberately loud voice, said "What, haven't they seen a black person before?"
The locals all scurried off looking sheepish, but one of the teachers on the trip said to me "Possibly not in person."

That got me thinking and maybe city dwellers don't realise just how white Britain is? I know that was ~25 years ago, but I can believe there are still villages that are pretty much all white (apart from the Chinese and Indian takeaways, of course).

I was driving through a town in Cornwall a couple of years ago and was stopped by the Police.
The offence? Driving whilst being black.
I didn't see any 'ethnics' whilst I was there (a week), apart from working in the takeaways, of course!

I think the producer is a racist for deliberately having an all white (and therefore racist) policy. I wonder what would have happened if Idris Elba (a critically acclaimed and award-winning black English actor) had gone for an audition?
"Sorry Idris, I know you starred as a policeman in a BBC series as well as putting in a great performance in The Wire, but you have a rather heavy tan and we don't get that much sun in Midsomer. So, based on that, you're out."

Were all of the off-camera staff (sound bods, cameramen, catering staff etc) working on Midsomer Murders white too?

rick_chasey

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I think the producer is a racist for deliberately having an all white (and therefore racist) policy. I wonder what would have happened if Idris Elba (a critically acclaimed and award-winning black English actor) had gone for an audition?
"Sorry Idris, I know you starred as a policeman in a BBC series as well as putting in a great performance in The Wire, but you have a rather heavy tan and we don't get that much sun in Midsomer. So, based on that, you're out."

Who is he, Berlusconi?

I tend to agree with EKE. Granted, race is something that has to be taken into account in writing, but an explicit 'all white' policy is clearly discriminatory.

guinea

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I think the producer is a racist for deliberately having an all white (and therefore racist) policy.[/url]?

Are you for real?

Racist is a pretty strong word to throw around.

All white does not equal racist any more than all black does. Midsomer Murders is as racist as the Asian Network.

Shows are made for particular demographics to sell advertising. This one is for white middle Englanders, or those that want to mock them.

Weejie54

I think the producer is a racist for deliberately having an all white (and therefore racist) policy. I wonder what would have happened if Idris Elba (a critically acclaimed and award-winning black English actor) had gone for an audition?
"Sorry Idris, I know you starred as a policeman in a BBC series as well as putting in a great performance in The Wire, but you have a rather heavy tan and we don't get that much sun in Midsomer. So, based on that, you're out."

"Mr True-May, the witness, Mr Elba, suggests that you turned him down for a part in your television series on the grounds of his skin colour. Is this correct?".

"Yes, your honour".

"I also understand that you are citing Section 4a of the RRA as grounds for this rejection, a genuine occupational requirement. Is this correct?"

"Yes your honour".

"Would you kindly tell the court the precise nature of this genuine occupational requirement?"

"Well, your honour, my series reflects the last bastion of Englishness, the quiet English hamlet, where there are no darkies to be seen. You can't be English unless you are of a pale complexion."



Doesn't really hold water.......

EKE_38BPM

guinea wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I think the producer is a racist for deliberately having an all white (and therefore racist) policy.[/url]?

Are you for real?

Racist is a pretty strong word to throw around.

All white does not equal racist any more than all black does. Midsomer Murders is as racist as the Asian Network.

Shows are made for particular demographics to sell advertising. This one is for white middle Englanders, or those that want to mock them.

Yep, I'm for real.

I agree that racist is a strong word to throw around and I stick by it. If an organisation, any organisation, said "No ethnic minorities allowed" how can that not be described as racist?
Would advertisers run away if a black character turned up in the show? I doubt it, but if they did, good. I hope their business goes down the tubes.

A policy of all black is as racist as all white and that deserves a backlash too.

rick_chasey

guinea wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I think the producer is a racist for deliberately having an all white (and therefore racist) policy.[/url]?

Are you for real?

Racist is a pretty strong word to throw around.

All white does not equal racist any more than all black does. Midsomer Murders is as racist as the Asian Network.

Disagree. Racism isn't a strong word. It has a specific, literal meaning.

Secondly, arguments about non-white networks are massively taken out of context. They exist to redress the balances of centuries and continuning discrimination and under-representation. I'm always surprised when people bring out this argument, since it's patently obviouswhy it occurs and why it's considered different.

CiB

Rick Chasey wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I think the producer is a racist for deliberately having an all white (and therefore racist) policy. I wonder what would have happened if Idris Elba (a critically acclaimed and award-winning black English actor) had gone for an audition?
"Sorry Idris, I know you starred as a policeman in a BBC series as well as putting in a great performance in The Wire, but you have a rather heavy tan and we don't get that much sun in Midsomer. So, based on that, you're out."

Who is he, Berlusconi?

I tend to agree with EKE. Granted, race is something that has to be taken into account in writing, but an explicit 'all white' policy is clearly discriminatory.

I don't see it that way. It's as valid to have a production that reflects a mythical stereotype location where everyone is white & middle-class that doesn't require - as opposed to deliberately excluding - other races, as it is to have The Asian Network on the BBC, as an example.

The bottom line is that there are areas where for no reason other than that's just how it is, there are almost exclusively single-colour populations in the UK. Pretending that there aren't is ridiculous. How tokenistic would it look to have a drama set in parts of Birmingham, Bradford, Leicester where large areas are exclusively Asian, and then introduce a white family living in the midst? Sorry lads, it doesn't happen like that.

All these posts banging on about how white or mixed their own village is or was are irrelevant. MM is a mythical land where there are going on 20 murders a year. It's not a documentary, or a true reflection of the Home Counties. It's made up. To me the key words that True-May said were the ones along the lines of "it's written for a particular audience of a certain age". I don't see anything wrong whatsoever in that; it's no different from any other TV programme aiming itself fair & square at one specific demographic. Like it or not the MM target audience does - or would like to - see England as portrayed in MM.

It's no worse than Womans Hour excluding men, or The Asian Network not welcoming me due to its bias towards Asian culture, or 1Xtra not playing enough Emerson Lake & Palmer records for my liking. What's sad is that there are enough people who are desparate to be offended by this sort of niche-marketing, and can't wait to destroy the professional and personal reputation of the boke at the heart of it. What's he done? He's created a very successful drama with a theme. I don't imagine anyone has even come close to being hurt in anyway by the lack of other races in it.

But suddenly because of his view that he'd like to pretend that rural England is something that it never has been - entirely middle-class, two or more murders per week, pleasant friendly policemen, all crimes solved by a bit of unexpected sleuthing, always a game of cricket going on whilst the pub is full of villagers - this bloke has to be fed to the dogs and hung out to dry for daring to have an outdated view.

So he's wrong. So what? Is it the end of the world if there are corners of the entertainment industry that pander to a generation that's dying, out-moded, and in the end wrong? What really is wrong with that?

rick_chasey

CiB - no-one I know is talking about quotas which is what you are infering.

I'm saying a policy to use only one particular race when it is not key to any writing or plot is discriminatory.

The inference I got from the comment was that he felt midsummer murders was particularly popular because it was all white, and that he was aware of that, and perhaps inferred that he made sure it stayed that way. That smacks of discrimination, for no politically acceptable reason.

As I've said above, using examples of networks devoted to particular cultures misses the contextual point which is vital when considereing social issues - i.e. that discrimination of those cultures has occured for centuries and still does occur. They are still under-represented on TV, and, the cultural networks are seen as a good way to deal with said under-representation without necessarily encroaching on existing anglo-saxon British output. To compare the two is to miss the point of one.

Weejie54

It's no worse than Womans Hour excluding men, or The Asian Network not welcoming me due to its bias towards Asian culture, or 1Xtra not playing enough Emerson Lake & Palmer records for my liking.

Irrelevant. This concerns employment, not guests on a chat show. I wasn't aware that Woman's Hour excluded men from the studio, anyway.

CiB

Cutting out all the spare words, what's the problem?

CiB wrote:

So he's wrong. So what? Is it the end of the world if there are corners of the entertainment industry that pander to a generation that's dying, out-moded, and in the end wrong? What really is wrong with that?

It's not racist to pretend that it's still pre-war in Oxfordshire. I wasn't talking quotas; I was trying [and failing obviously] to make the point that not requiring a racial mix is different from deliberately excluding other races. It just is. Call it semantics or whatever, but identifying a niche and pandering to it in the way that MM has isn't of itself racist. Just what problem is there, other than the fact that some people sem to have decided that pretending something to be the case when any fule know that it isn't and then admitting that it's done to satisfy an audience, is of itself racist? Like I said, some people can't wait to be offended.

EKE_38BPM

The Asian Network exists because of the lack of Asian biased programming generally in the media (apart from BBC newsreaders it seems), in the same way that CBBC and CBeebies exist for kids because of the lack of kids broadcasting.

Asians make up a large enough proportion of the population (Birmingham, Bradford, Leicester etc) for there to be a perceived need (I say perceived as no-one 'needs' a radio station, its not essential to live) for programming for them.

Part of the BBC's remit is to provide programming for all sections of the population, but ITV exist to chase ratings to make money from advertising. The policy of chasing ratings does not exclude them from race relation legislation.

Weejie54

Call it semantics or whatever, but identifying a niche and pandering to it in the way that MM has isn't of itself racist. Just what problem is there, other than the fact that some people sem to have decided that pretending something to be the case when any fule know that it isn't and then admitting that it's done to satisfy an audience, is of itself racist? Like I said, some people can't wait to be offended.

OK, so True-May should come clean and say - "I make the programme for geriatrics and they are all racists or xenophobes, so I won't recruit dark skinned people."

That should pacify everyone.

EKE_38BPM

Rick Chasey wrote:

I'm saying a policy to use only one particular race when it is not key to any writing or plot is discriminatory.

+1

By deliberately only employing white actors, that is clearly discriminating against all non-white actors.
Non-white people were around in the UK pre-war, not in the numbers around today, but even 100+ years ago, we were here. The joys of Empire, ennit?

I think CiB and I are never going to see eye to eye on this issue so we will have to agree to disagree.
BTW, I'm not in any way calling CiB racist.

Cleat Eastwood

Brian True May was referring to a perception of a last bastion of englishness, not his perception but A perception that foreign audiences found appealing, and not of britishness but englishness as depicted in novels and stories from 70-80 years ago.

I cant see how any aesthetic choices in a collaborative fictional work can be described as racist/sexist etc and it was interesting seeing ricks interpretation of that.

It seems to me that compliance to a genre does ultimately lead to parody, which is where midsomer fits right now, and parody, by its nature, exists outside of social norms.

The characters in MM were/are cut from templates from the middle of last century. It's no more than a quaint refernce to a genre which has moved on, but certainly not IMO racist.