Richmond Park 3-lap Challenge 2011

grandantipathes

cjcp wrote:

Petromyzon wrote:

Name......................Dir...........Wt........Time.........Mnth....Club...............TOR
TarmacExpert.......Anti..........69kg......52:53.......Jan......KW..............TTer AP 300W NP 313W
Petromyzon.........Anti........76kg.......53.20.......Jan......LD...............AP 345W NP 350W
Birdy247..............anti........70kg.......63:42......Jan.......n/a..................Nothing at the moment
Gert_lush............anti........65kg.......67.5........Jan.......Teaclub..........SCR - Dawes superGalaxy
GGBAndrew..........clock........81kg....68:72......Jan.......n/a............Nothing at the moment

Bit frustrated, only a couple more watts than last september. Was convinced I could hit 350 and blew up fairly spectacularly on the last half lap, but at least I went hard. Nice time Steve!

Bloomin' 'eck, lads! You've had your Weetabix this winter, haven't you? Great times.

I second that!
I went for a ride last weekend and it felt slow, a lot slower than last summer. Something tells me that there will be quite a few sub 50 minutes lap times this summer

chunkytfg

jibberjim wrote:

chunkytfg wrote:

what time were you there today? I was there around 10am ish. Saw loads of other riders but not a clue what any of you look like!

2pm or so I got there, so long after you - too late really as I got the school run cars on the later laps, but when you're ducking out in your "lunchbreak" you can't really complain.

Fair enough. when I summon the strength in the legs again I may go up there for another go at it and hopefully get a bit closer to a 60 something time!!

Petromyzon

BCSS: I'm glad you've asked me to trot out my extensive list of excuses! My setup couldn't be much slower- heavy aluminium bike (new one on the way), bog standard wheels, Rubino Pro Tech tires, crud roadracers, normal helmet, winter jacket flapping open, big gloves....and tired legs. Cue violins.

I'll mention this thread to IP- he'll be along to give everyone a kicking methinks.

cjcp

Petromyzon wrote:

BCSS: I'm glad you've asked me to trot out my extensive list of excuses! My setup couldn't be much slower- heavy aluminium bike (new one on the way), bog standard wheels, Rubino Pro Tech tires, crud roadracers, normal helmet, winter jacket flapping open, big gloves....and tired legs. Cue violins.

Thanks. Thanks a lot. That makes me feel a lot better.

seanoconn

Any tips on the best way to pace the 3laps? Do you go hard on the hills then ease off on the decents or vice versa? Do you do a hard first lap, ease off for the second then give it 100% for the last? Or do you supermen go hell for leather from start to finish? This bearing mind I don't as yet have a heart monitor.
Thanks

KnightOfTheLongTights

Only been down once this year so far: monday morning in the torential rain. I'd done an hour's BMF circuit training and then got on the bike for two circuits, and came in at 45 mins, which I was pleased with.

Will post 3-lap effort as soon as it is done, without an hour's prior beasting.

jibberjim

seanoconn wrote:

Any tips on the best way to pace the 3laps? Do you go hard on the hills then ease off on the decents or vice versa? Do you do a hard first lap, ease off for the second then give it 100% for the last? Or do you supermen go hell for leather from start to finish? This bearing mind I don't as yet have a heart monitor.
Thanks

Ideally it's well paced, hopefully most of the variation in power is from the traffic/riders etc. rather than anything else. It's all out other than recovery on the descents.

You can see yesterdays ride (click on the performance you can see the HR and power graphs for what I actually did)
http://app.strava.com/rides/269476

Here you can see my HR was up around 170 for most of the first lap, before being pretty variable along with the power on the next 2 laps. That HR was higher than me for normal and the power should be much smoother - all in all it wasn't a good effort.

This was my PB from last year:
http://app.strava.com/rides/213627#
It had a much more even HR and power (a few beats lower too which is more normal for me) only having a small dip on the descents and quickly back to power. Still a few spikes in power (from overtaking or having to slow and reaccellerate for cars) but mostly pretty evenly paced.

If you look at TarmacExpert's recent go http://app.strava.com/rides/267565 - you'll see a very even HR and power pacing on average but quite spiky on the last lap - that's likely to be from cars.

Petromyzon needs to get a Garmin so we can stalk him too...

seanoconn

Cheers jim, gives me a better idea now. I thought previously the garmin aided you during a ride but now I see its all about analysing after the event, checking the stats and where to improve. Very interesting. I wish i'd invested in a garmin now instead of over indulging with new jacket.

maryka

seanoconn wrote:

Any tips on the best way to pace the 3laps? Do you go hard on the hills then ease off on the decents or vice versa? Do you do a hard first lap, ease off for the second then give it 100% for the last? Or do you supermen go hell for leather from start to finish? This bearing mind I don't as yet have a heart monitor.
Thanks

Pacing does depend a bit on what your strengths are. Also the conditions. I suspect a heavier rider with fewer w/kg would be better suited working a bit harder to get up the hills (without blowing up of course) then resting slightly on the downhills as that weight will get you down the hill faster. For me, as a lighter weight climber I work hard on the hills but have to temper that a lot more so I have something left to push down the hills and on tailwinds as I don't naturallly hit 40mph very easily! (yet)

Also it pays to work harder on the hills if you have good 1-2 min power and can recover fast. Not so much if a 1-min hard effort will cook you for the next 10 minutes.

But otherwise, I think most people go out fairly evenly between laps, with the first feeling like you're holding back slightly, the second often being the slowest as it starts to feel like real work and you're worried about conserving a bit, and the last being hopefully the fastest as you're inspired to finish and give it all you've got for a fast time.

Not sure where other people start/finish, but I like Roehampton gate as it gives me 3-4 min of hard effort on the flat at the end where I can cook myself the most for the least amount of danger. Richmond Gate would be ok too as the final minutes would be up the hill. But I would not want to end at Robiin Hood gate for example, where the last minute was spent on a steep downhill and the temptation to push it would be a bit much!

Petromyzon

I start and finish just short of Richmond so I can wallop myself up the hill at the end as Maryka says. Also a good idea to start in view of one of the roundabouts so you can try and time a clean passage through at least on one of them. As for pacing will depend on your physiology and fitness- even is rarely a bad strategy. I can chug well but blow up if I try and lift it for a minute or two.

Jim: I'm working on getting an ANT+ PT and an EDGE 500. Strava sounds fun!

chunkytfg

Pacing wise, bear in mind I have only done it once, I entered RP at Richmond Gate so took that as my starting point.

Going anti clockwise I didn't really know what I was letting myself in for so just took it easy-ish down the hill(over took 1 car sticking to the 20mph limit!!) then just tried to pace myself on the hills. Again took it easy down priory hill as it was damp and the road surface looks far too much like gravel! then just my normal endurance pace and hill climbing up sawyers hill.

2nd lap was much the same as I knew what to expect this time and being a a right fatty fat i'm not a climber so needed to conserve energy.

3rd lap was more of the same as the 2nd although took it even easier as I knew I still had a 15 miles ride home afterwards.

Next time I will probably hit the downhills a bit harder to up the Av speed a bit and just do the same on the flats and uphills

cjcp

I start on at a line on Dark Hill just after Kingston Gate roundabout and opposite the "IN" turning. No idea if this is any slower than starting anywhere else.

Cumulonimbus

Other people will know more than me about pacing, etc, but i dont think pushing yourself really hard on the hills in order to recover on the descent works that well in Richmond Park. On both hills you dont really go straight from uphill to downhill as it sort of undulates for a while. Therefore it is important to come over the top of the hill in good enough condition to keep the pace along the undulations before you hit the downhill. You still have to go hard though, probably pushing the effort level a little above your average for the lap. The only time i really crank it up is the small rise up to the car park leading to the steeper downhill ACW. You cant really pedal much going down there as othesr have said - also the sprint can save you even more time if you can overtake people or keep cars behind you. Watch out for deer going down there - one once did a sprint from the bushes on one side to the other, crossing not that far ahead of me.

Will give this a go this weekend hopefully if i can get my bike fixed. Hopefully be capable of a 55 this year although i think i would be struggling to do a 65 in good conditions at the moment. On a sidenote, has anyone tried it on a Boris bike yet? Wondering how much slower a lap would be - could one of the sub-50 speedsters do it under an hour? On another sidenote, i find some of my fastest conditions are in cloudy and still conditions. I think its due to a lack of traffic as fewer people want to pootle around when it is dull.

By the way, anyone wanting weather obs for Richmond Park so they can put some numbers on how windy it was, etc, can find data for Kew Gardens here

http://www.meteogroup.co.uk/uk/home/wea ... 99095.html

Obviously the wind can vary within the hour - getting gustier as a shower goes over, etc and also Kew Gardens is low down and the higher up bits of Richmond Park can be windier. For an indication of that, Kenley can be useful although it is quite a bit higher up.

http://www.meteogroup.co.uk/uk/home/wea ... /3781.html

seanoconn

The wind from Roehampton gate to Richmond gate was a pig last saturday. I hadn't done any laps for a while and was thinking this isn't as much fun as it used to be. Got used to it in the end and everyone else was struggling also, which made me happy

TarmacExpert

I definitely vary my power quite a lot, but I've developed the fitness to immediately press on after a hard effort, I don't have to recover at the top of the hills. E.g. the section going anti-clockwise from Kingston gate:
1:09 at 403W, HR rises from 167 to 179
1:44 at 307W, HR drops from 179 to 173
0:30 at 363W, HR rises from 173 to 176
0:29 at 99W, HR drops from 176 to 165

So basically, the whole section from Kingston gate to the downhill where you finally get a rest is significantly above threshold for me, with 3:23 at 348W vs my overall average of 300W, but the downhill bit gives a lot of recovery and makes it 4:02 at 315W. That section is from my first lap where my power ended up a bit higher than my overall average.

Sometimes you just have to make the best you can of the circumstances, too, e.g. on one lap I got held up a lot at Richmond gate and had 24 secs at just 108W before finally getting through the roundabout. So I made up for that by immediately doing 26 secs at 499W to blast up the hill, which I was able to do because of the recovery I got from the 24 secs before the roundabout. Overall it gave 50 secs at 311W, so the period as a whole ended up similar to my average for the 3 laps.

BTW, for those who might not be aware, and to put our feeble power figures into context, Miguel Indurain could output 510W for an hour.

cjcp

TarmacExpert wrote:

I definitely vary my power quite a lot, but I've developed the fitness to immediately press on after a hard effort, I don't have to recover at the top of the hills. E.g. the section going anti-clockwise from Kingston gate:

This /\ /\.

Shortening the recovery time at the top of Dark Hill, and being able to carry the speed over the top of Sawyer's Hill are two areas where I think significant time savings can be made over the course of three laps. You often see gaps appearing at or after the top where people have put in the same effort to stay together up the hills, but can't sustain it after the top.

I think KingstonWheeler mentioned this a couple of years back.

jibberjim

Even with the general idea I still tend to hit Dark Hill harder than TarmacExpert (ISTR last year I was ~60 seconds him ~65 for pretty much the same overall time) but still obviously couldn't afford to rest until the descent. That's despite in absolute terms when we're all out trying to climb dark hill the fastest he's faster than me by quite a bit

Part of the reason maybe that I'm much less aerodynamic (typically needing 10-15% more watts to achieve the same time in TT's) so I do get a better return digging even deeper on the slowest parts. Mind you there's no concious effort to do that it's just how I ride it.

seanoconn

Name......................Dir...........Wt........Time.........Mnth....Club...............TOR
TarmacExpert.......Anti..........69kg......52:53.......Jan......KW..............TTer AP 300W NP 313W
Petromyzon.........Anti........76kg.......53.20.......Jan......LD...............AP 345W NP 350W
Jibberjim..............Anti........77kg.......55:09.......Jan......KW..............Club run hero...AP 293W NP320 W
Birdy247..............anti........70kg.......63:42......Jan.......n/a..................Nothing at the moment
Gert_lush............anti........65kg.......67.5........Jan.......Teaclub..........SCR - Dawes superGalaxy
Seanoconn........Anti.........80kg.......68:35......Jan........n/a................Fitness/commuter
GGBAndrew.......clock.......81kg.......68:72......Jan........n/a...............Nothing at the moment
Chunkytfg...........Anti.........132kg.....76.13......Jan..........n/a.............Winter heavy bike 15m just to get to RP!

First attempt today and all thoughts of pacing went out the window! First lap, the Kingston gate hill knocked the stuffing out of me. Some traffic on the second saved my bacon which left me a little gas for the hill and the third lap was a blur.

strokemonkey

Hi, am new to this, so hope this works...

Name......................Dir...........Wt........Time.........Mnth....Club...............TOR
TarmacExpert.......Anti..........69kg......52:53.......Jan......KW..............TTer AP 300W NP 313W
Petromyzon.........Anti........76kg.......53.20.......Jan......LD...............AP 345W NP 350W
Jibberjim..............Anti........77kg.......55:09.......Jan......KW..............Club run hero...AP 293W NP320 W
Birdy247..............anti........70kg.......63:42......Jan.......n/a..................Nothing at the moment
strokemonkey.....anti........81kg.......66:14......Jan.......total novice....Giant TCR Adv 4
Gert_lush............anti........65kg.......67.5........Jan.......Teaclub..........SCR - Dawes superGalaxy
Seanoconn........Anti.........80kg.......68:35......Jan........n/a................Fitness/commuter
GGBAndrew.......clock.......81kg.......68:72......Jan........n/a...............Nothing at the moment
Chunkytfg...........Anti.........132kg.....76.13......Jan..........n/a.............Winter heavy bike 15m just to get to RP!

Guys, I know the answer is "it depends" but give me a feeling is this a competitive time or not. Is it the sort of time I should be looking to record as a 41 yo guy, new to cycling? Is sub-60 for real hard core or can mortals realistically aim for that too? - i was jiggered this morning after the 3rd lap, so donno where the 6 minutes are gonna come from!!!

jibberjim

strokemonkey wrote:

Guys, I know the answer is "it depends" but give me a feeling is this a competitive time or not. Is it the sort of time I should be looking to record as a 41 yo guy, new to cycling? Is sub-60 for real hard core or can mortals realistically aim for that too? - i was jiggered this morning after the 3rd lap, so donno where the 6 minutes are gonna come from!!!

So you're one of the top 5 fastest 3 lappers of the park around. Sure it's not going to hold a top 5 place for the year, but it's actually a pretty good time for Jan. Irrespective of your fitness it's simply slower this time of year. I think today was probably one of the slowest days for lapping the park of the year (very high air pressure, cold, north westerly wind) With an east wind, lower air pressure, and 20degrees warmer you're maybe in under 60 shape already.

But irrespective of that it's a good time for a new cyclist, there was a rider who did their first 3 lap time last year in over 80 minutes, and was doing 56's by the end of the season (the weather means people stop setting fast times once autumn comes round generally) I was a completely new unfit 35 year old cyclist in 2008, who didn't manage to go near 20 minutes for a single lap that year, but last year I managed close to 50 for 3.

So yes "it depends", but people in the position you've described yourself in would've been very happy with 66 minutes, and you can certainly get to sub 60 minutes. Just keep training! Have you considered joining a club?

chunkytfg

Well popped over again this morning for 3 laps and took it extra easy getting there hoping to be fresher for the 3 laps leading to a quicker time.

Ended up over a minute slower :roll: :oops:

Must try harder although sawyer hill had a bit of a headwind which was causing me problems slowing me down.

Never mind though there is always next time 8)

RedGreenBaron

Very impressive performances from some of the old timers plus great to see some committed newbies.
I really want to emphasise that sub-55 at this time of year is fantastic so if anyone's a bit nervous about posting a slower time please don't be.
I've been ill for ages - not sure if I'll get a ride in before disappearing on the 27th for 5 weeks- but I'd be thrilled with sub-60.

Nick

cjcp

@strokemonkey - a very tidy time. I think JibberJim is referring to Guinea.

seanoconn

How many miles is a lap of the park please? 6 something? I'd use my bike computer to find out but its pretty basic and I save the trip distance for door to door.

jibberjim

cjcp wrote:

@strokemonkey - a very tidy time. I think JibberJim is referring to Guinea.

Furrag too Although he never posted his 80+ on the thread.

jonginge

It's a 6.7mile lap

furrag

Garmin for me has 6.71 anti-clock wise, and 6.74 clockwise.

I went out today to put my first time of the year in. The 8mph Westerly wind convinced me to do clockwise to avoid a hard slog up Sawyers hill. I think I made the right choice, but the volume of traffic at roundabouts was ridiculous today. Especially at Richmond gate. The amount of traffic too when descending Sawyers slowed me down which was frustrating as I was counting on that descent to make up time and recover.

Had the Garmin on my wrist today, so I was going more by perceived effort. Very happy with the consistent HR.

Time --- Av HR --- Av. Speed
20:55 - 87% MHR - 19.3mph
21:17 - 87% MHR - 19mph
21:04 - 87% MHR - 19.2mph

Name......................Dir...........Wt........Time.........Mnth....Club...............TOR
TarmacExpert.......Anti..........69kg......52:53.......Jan......KW..............TTer AP 300W NP 313W
Petromyzon.........Anti........76kg.......53.20.......Jan......LD...............AP 345W NP 350W
Jibberjim..............Anti........77kg.......55:09.......Jan......KW..............Club run hero...AP 293W NP320 W
Furag.................clock......68kg.......63:16.......Jan......KW................Newbie 4th cat
Birdy247..............anti........70kg.......63:42......Jan.......n/a..................Nothing at the moment
strokemonkey.....anti........81kg.......66:14......Jan.......total novice....Giant TCR Adv 4
Gert_lush............anti........65kg.......67.5........Jan.......Teaclub..........SCR - Dawes superGalaxy
Seanoconn........Anti.........80kg.......68:35......Jan........n/a................Fitness/commuter
GGBAndrew.......clock.......81kg.......68:72......Jan........n/a...............Nothing at the moment
Chunkytfg...........Anti.........132kg.....76.13......Jan..........n/a.............Winter heavy bike 15m just to get to RP!

furrag

jibberjim wrote:

cjcp wrote:

@strokemonkey - a very tidy time. I think JibberJim is referring to Guinea.

Furrag too Although he never posted his 80+ on the thread.

I never posted a 56 either - it was 58:36 or something like that.

I did a seated slow cadence 75:xx on Saturday (probably why I couldn't cope with Dan's ride on Sunday!) which a) I was never going to post, and b) put me in the 3LC competitive mood.

I was thinking about my best 3LC today as the spray of rain was blurring my shades. Thinking of those lovely gently Easterly breezes in 20c heat end-of-summer days. Can't wait for them again!

toontra

Winds are looking promising for antis towards the end of the week.

strokemonkey

To JibberJim - [Just keep training! Have you considered joining a club?]

Thanks for the advice. Am toying with tri vs cycling club - as i have committed to a tri event for charity in the summer. Thoughts on Twickenham CC and Thames Turbo?