I predict more riots

W1

Sewinman wrote:

W1 wrote:

Sewinman, are you going to condemn your fellow protesters who urinated on the statue of Churchill, disrepected the Cenotaph or threw masonary and snooker balls at the police?

I know you're an advocate of violence and vandalism, I'd just be interested to know how far your support goes.

I don't agree with some of it, but for me it is just a minor side-show that people love to get indignant about and ignore the real scandal - the trebling of student fees. In comparison to that, its hand bags at five paces.

So you're not going to condemn that behaviour?

To coin a phrase from yesterday - shame on you. That makes you no better than the vermin who did it.

Sewinman

W1 wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

W1 wrote:

Sewinman, are you going to condemn your fellow protesters who urinated on the statue of Churchill, disrepected the Cenotaph or threw masonary and snooker balls at the police?

I know you're an advocate of violence and vandalism, I'd just be interested to know how far your support goes.

I don't agree with some of it, but for me it is just a minor side-show that people love to get indignant about and ignore the real scandal - the trebling of student fees. In comparison to that, its hand bags at five paces.

So you're not going to condemn that behaviour?

To coin a phrase from yesterday - shame on you. That makes you no better than the vermin who did it.

I just said I don't agree with some of it. I think you are obsessing on this vandalism and violence etc - I don't. It is minor stuff.

p.s Did you just call me vermin!? Ha ha First time for everything!

hfidgen

Sewinman wrote:

I just said I don't agree with some of it. I think you are obsessing on this vandalism and violence etc - I don't. It is minor stuff.

p.s Did you just call me vermin!? Ha ha First time for everything!

I think probably more than a few people here don't see the rioting as minor stuff - it counts as pretty major.

I can see how the anti-fees group have really forced an agenda through the marches, but I think most moderate, middle-class, comfortably off, 2.4 children people (IE the readers of this forum in the main) think they overstepped the mark a long way last night.

Pissing on Churchill and swinging on the Cenotaph might not mean a lot to you, but it means something to me. This is quite an antagonistic example, but imagine me pissing on a family members grave and see if you don't have a slight "by golly, that's not upstanding behaviour" type of thought.

Paul E

Sewinman wrote:

Paul E wrote:

As far the damage to war memorials that makes me so angry, these people are supposed educated, do they not realise that these are memorials to people that gave their lives to enable these people to have the right to the freedoms of this country and the benefits that come with that.
.

Out of interest, where did you see that?

So you are going to need the examples of all the damage or just where and when I saw it because that's going to get tedious, maybe I should employ one of the poor students to collate it all for me.

If I can't provide examples does that make it wrong I mentioned it or that it didn't happen, I didn't realise I had to provide documentary evidence to post on here about events.

jzed

Paul E wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

Paul E wrote:

As far the damage to war memorials that makes me so angry, these people are supposed educated, do they not realise that these are memorials to people that gave their lives to enable these people to have the right to the freedoms of this country and the benefits that come with that.
.

Out of interest, where did you see that?

So you are going to need the examples of all the damage or just where and when I saw it because that's going to get tedious, maybe I should employ one of the poor students to collate it all for me.

If I can't provide examples does that make it wrong I mentioned it or that it didn't happen, I didn't realise I had to provide documentary evidence to post on here about events.

Paulie W

crimsondynamo wrote:

The reason why the students get no sympathy is because they're raising the wrong objections. On the radio and TV all we hear is, "I can't afford £9k pa, only rich people will go to uni" etc. They're silenced by the fact that the poorest will be supported through uni, and that the loans only need to be repaid when their salary suffices.

Instead of focussing on the detail, they should be looking at the big picture and trying to reverse the dramatic shift in the way the argument is now being framed. In the past (and in Scotland) education is a right, not merely goods/services to purchased on the open market. Now we hear the argument "why should non-students fund universities?", in a rhetorical tone, as if there's no answer!!! Of course the answer is that everyone benefits from living in an educted society. Similarly I pay for the NHS even though I don't directly get my money's worth, because I benefit from living in a healthy society.

By the way this is neither a tory thing nor recession related. It's an ongoing trend. It won't be reversed either by a change of government or an upturn in the nation's finances.

Bingo!

Sewinman

JZed wrote:

Paul E wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

Paul E wrote:

As far the damage to war memorials that makes me so angry, these people are supposed educated, do they not realise that these are memorials to people that gave their lives to enable these people to have the right to the freedoms of this country and the benefits that come with that.
.

Out of interest, where did you see that?

So you are going to need the examples of all the damage or just where and when I saw it because that's going to get tedious, maybe I should employ one of the poor students to collate it all for me.

If I can't provide examples does that make it wrong I mentioned it or that it didn't happen, I didn't realise I had to provide documentary evidence to post on here about events.

That is Churchill though, it is not a war memorial. I simply asked as I have seen a number of people mentioning it, yet not seen any pictures, so i wonderred where the info was coming from.

Pufftmw

Seeing that picture, I wonder how the "tented residents" of Parliament Square felt about the demonstration?

Lucky that their tents & possessions were not used as missiles or stuff to burn...

Sewinman

hfidgen wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

I just said I don't agree with some of it. I think you are obsessing on this vandalism and violence etc - I don't. It is minor stuff.

p.s Did you just call me vermin!? Ha ha First time for everything!

I think probably more than a few people here don't see the rioting as minor stuff - it counts as pretty major.

I can see how the anti-fees group have really forced an agenda through the marches, but I think most moderate, middle-class, comfortably off, 2.4 children people (IE the readers of this forum in the main) think they overstepped the mark a long way last night.

Pissing on Churchill and swinging on the Cenotaph might not mean a lot to you, but it means something to me. This is quite an antagonistic example, but imagine me pissing on a family members grave and see if you don't have a slight "by golly, that's not upstanding behaviour" type of thought.

If you took the trouble to piss on one of my family's graves I would think you might need to get some help!

Sh8t happens when people are angry, that is life.

hfidgen

Sewinman wrote:

That is Churchill though, it is not a war memorial. I simply asked as I have seen a number of people mentioning it, yet not seen any pictures, so i wonderred where the info was coming from.

So pissing on a statue of Churchill is OK?
Swinging on the Cenotaph is OK?

Stop nitpicking - you know what people mean

Sewinman wrote:

If you took the trouble to wee-wee on one of my family's graves I would think you might need to get some help!

To be fair But that aside, i'm intrigued to see if you actually see a problem with this behaviour, or is this all "just life" and "get over it"?

Think we'll have to agree to disagree if so, or at least we can both start shouting hitler and have done with it.

Sewinman

hfidgen wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

That is Churchill though, it is not a war memorial. I simply asked as I have seen a number of people mentioning it, yet not seen any pictures, so i wonderred where the info was coming from.

So pissing on a statue of Churchill is OK?
Swinging on the Cenotaph is OK?

Stop nitpicking - you know what people mean

You are right, we should not let facts get in the way of a good idignant rant!

I don't agree with it and would not do that myself, but I view them as just petty incidents.

Pufftmw

The memorial to Churchill was primarily recognition of the fact that he was a great wartime leader for our country, providing strong, intelligent leadership as a time of crisis. He was inspiration and strength for many during that period and is example to the generations that followed.

To me, that iconic image of Churchill is as much a war memorial as the Cenotaph and those thugs have defaced it and their lack of respect is disgraceful.

W1

Sewinman wrote:

W1 wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

W1 wrote:

Sewinman, are you going to condemn your fellow protesters who urinated on the statue of Churchill, disrepected the Cenotaph or threw masonary and snooker balls at the police?

I know you're an advocate of violence and vandalism, I'd just be interested to know how far your support goes.

I don't agree with some of it, but for me it is just a minor side-show that people love to get indignant about and ignore the real scandal - the trebling of student fees. In comparison to that, its hand bags at five paces.

So you're not going to condemn that behaviour?

To coin a phrase from yesterday - shame on you. That makes you no better than the vermin who did it.

I just said I don't agree with some of it. I think you are obsessing on this vandalism and violence etc - I don't. It is minor stuff.

p.s Did you just call me vermin!? Ha ha First time for everything!

Well you are perfectly able to answer that question - what did you "agree" with and what didn't you? Go on, spit it out. Then we can all know where you stand and what that says about you.

If you think this is minor I'm sure there are plenty of scum who'd like to attack your house, vandalise your property or attack your family. And as it's minor I'm sure you'd do nothing about it, eh?

Sewinman

Stanley222 wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

If you took the trouble to wee-wee on one of my family's graves I would think you might need to get some help!

Sh8t happens when people are angry, that is life.

WTF?!

Seriously? None of this behaviour bothers you?

I don't agree with some of it, but no it does not bother me hugely. It is tittle-tattle.

Maybe I was wrong and this kind of thing is bad for the 'cause', despite all the media attention it garners. A lot of people seem to be obsessed with the sanctity of some granite and on the other hand apathetic about their children's fees trebling. That seems the wrong way around to me.

notsoblue

crimsondynamo wrote:

The reason why the students get no sympathy is because they're raising the wrong objections. On the radio and TV all we hear is, "I can't afford £9k pa, only rich people will go to uni" etc. They're silenced by the fact that the poorest will be supported through uni, and that the loans only need to be repaid when their salary suffices.

Instead of focussing on the detail, they should be looking at the big picture and trying to reverse the dramatic shift in the way the argument is now being framed. In the past (and in Scotland) education is a right, not merely goods/services to purchased on the open market. Now we hear the argument "why should non-students fund universities?", in a rhetorical tone, as if there's no answer!!! Of course the answer is that everyone benefits from living in an educted society. Similarly I pay for the NHS even though I don't directly get my money's worth, because I benefit from living in a healthy society.

By the way this is neither a tory thing nor recession related. It's an ongoing trend. It won't be reversed either by a change of government or an upturn in the nation's finances.

+1, well said.

W1

Sewinman wrote:

Stanley222 wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

If you took the trouble to wee-wee on one of my family's graves I would think you might need to get some help!

Sh8t happens when people are angry, that is life.

WTF?!

Seriously? None of this behaviour bothers you?

I don't agree with some of it, but no it does not bother me hugely. It is tittle-tattle.

Maybe I was wrong and this kind of thing is bad for the 'cause', despite all the media attention it garners. A lot of people seem to be obsessed with the sanctity of some granite and on the other hand apathetic about their children's fees trebling. That seems the wrong way around to me.

"some granite" represents the lives of thousands of people, which were given so that you can sput this crap. Have some respect FFS.

Sewinman

W1 wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

W1 wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

W1 wrote:

Sewinman, are you going to condemn your fellow protesters who urinated on the statue of Churchill, disrepected the Cenotaph or threw masonary and snooker balls at the police?

I know you're an advocate of violence and vandalism, I'd just be interested to know how far your support goes.

I don't agree with some of it, but for me it is just a minor side-show that people love to get indignant about and ignore the real scandal - the trebling of student fees. In comparison to that, its hand bags at five paces.

So you're not going to condemn that behaviour?

To coin a phrase from yesterday - shame on you. That makes you no better than the vermin who did it.

I just said I don't agree with some of it. I think you are obsessing on this vandalism and violence etc - I don't. It is minor stuff.

p.s Did you just call me vermin!? Ha ha First time for everything!

Well you are perfectly able to answer that question - what did you "agree" with and what didn't you? Go on, spit it out. Then we can all know where you stand and what that says about you.

If you think this is minor I'm sure there are plenty of scum who'd like to attack your house, vandalise your property or attack your family. And as it's minor I'm sure you'd do nothing about it, eh?

I don't agree with pissing on a statue, or swinging about on the Union flag. I won't lose sleep over it though - slap on the wrist stuff.

It says a lot about you that you would happily watch police taking retribution on the protesters - most of whom are completely innocent and often children.

What has my house got to do with this?

Sewinman

notsoblue wrote:

crimsondynamo wrote:

The reason why the students get no sympathy is because they're raising the wrong objections. On the radio and TV all we hear is, "I can't afford £9k pa, only rich people will go to uni" etc. They're silenced by the fact that the poorest will be supported through uni, and that the loans only need to be repaid when their salary suffices.

Instead of focussing on the detail, they should be looking at the big picture and trying to reverse the dramatic shift in the way the argument is now being framed. In the past (and in Scotland) education is a right, not merely goods/services to purchased on the open market. Now we hear the argument "why should non-students fund universities?", in a rhetorical tone, as if there's no answer!!! Of course the answer is that everyone benefits from living in an educted society. Similarly I pay for the NHS even though I don't directly get my money's worth, because I benefit from living in a healthy society.

By the way this is neither a tory thing nor recession related. It's an ongoing trend. It won't be reversed either by a change of government or an upturn in the nation's finances.

+1, well said.

Interesting, some V good points.

W1

Sewinman wrote:

It says a lot about you that you would happily watch police taking retribution on the protesters - most of whom are completely innocent and often children.

Only you have used the word retribution.

And as to "innocent" - I think the footage is blindingly obvious even for those who don't wish to see.

notsoblue

W1 wrote:

"some granite" represents the lives of thousands of people, which were given so that you can sput this crap. Have some respect FFS.

The d*ckheadedness of the people who used protest as a cover for vandalism aside... Thats not strictly true is it. I mean, people didn't die in a war so that you can use their sacrifice to back up your arguments with people on the internet who hold opinions different to yours.

Always peeves me when people use the "people didn't die in two world wars so that..." in debates, or arguments (as this one has become).

Just sayin'

hfidgen

*sits back to watch this go on ad infinitum*

*slowly grows troll ears*

I think there is only one way to properly settle this:



Oh wait - they tried that yesterday. :?

davmaggs

to get back on to the subject of fees, it is worth reading these BBC figures.

At today's inflation rate students will be paying an interest rate of 7.5% on the fees. So when you quote the line about nobody paying anything back until they earn above £21k remember the power of compound interest.

They also state that it'll be 9% of your income.


source http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11483638

Sewinman

hfidgen wrote:

*sits back to watch this go on ad infinitum*

*slowly grows troll ears*

I think there is only one way to properly settle this:



Oh wait - they tried that yesterday. :?

Ha ha, no, I feel I am taking up too much of W1's time - he could be spending some 'special time' watching youtube clips of the riot cops.

CiB

I'm not going to paraphrase what was said or use selective extracts from the figures, but More Or Less on R4 now has just taken a more in-depth look at the figures, rather than just shouting 'fees tripled to 9k' [yeah right...].

Have a listen. It'll be on the IMissedThatPlayer from soon after 2 I expect. My take on it was 'WTF are these people complaining about?', based on what I heard. Which was obviously what I wanted to hear. Now - where's my tank...?

Paul E

Sewinman wrote:

It says a lot about you that you would happily watch police taking retribution on the protesters - most of whom are completely innocent and often children.

What has my house got to do with this?

Okay, can you show, not in photos but in video the proof of this and not just the incident but the lead up to it so we know the whole situation otherwise that is just hear say as you asked me to provide proof.

If there was children there you have to ask a few things,

A - How were they there without adult supervision
B - Did their parents know they were there
C - What were they doing in the front line facing the police if they were frail "children"

Your house is your property, the property that was damaged yesterday also belongs to people too, so they have to put up with it as a bit of tittle tattle or minor stuff then too

So you would just brush off the same damage to your property with the same attitude, I don't really think so, do you?

cjcp

Sewinman wrote:

If you took the trouble to wee-wee on one of my family's graves I would think you might need to get some help!

Is it that you're just very laid back or you just don't care? I'd go effin' bananas, not just think "the men in white coats'll be after you, sunshine, so you'd better pack it in."

Sewinman

Paul E wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

It says a lot about you that you would happily watch police taking retribution on the protesters - most of whom are completely innocent and often children.

What has my house got to do with this?

Okay, can you show, not in photos but in video the proof of this and not just the incident but the lead up to it so we know the whole situation otherwise that is just hear say as you asked me to provide proof.

If there was children there you have to ask a few things,

A - How were they there without adult supervision
B - Did their parents know they were there
C - What were they doing in the front line facing the police if they were frail "children"

Your house is your property, the property that was damaged yesterday also belongs to people too, so they have to put up with it as a bit of tittle tattle or minor stuff then too

So you would just brush off the same damage to your property with the same attitude, I don't really think so, do you?

What incident are you referring to?

I didn't see any private property damaged yesterday.

W1

Sewinman wrote:

hfidgen wrote:

*sits back to watch this go on ad infinitum*

*slowly grows troll ears*

I think there is only one way to properly settle this:



Oh wait - they tried that yesterday. :?

Ha ha, no, I feel I am taking up too much of W1's time - he could be spending some 'special time' watching youtube clips of the riot cops.

Sadly I can't get youtube at work.

As an aside, the cretin swinging on the Cenotaph is apparently Dave Gilmour's son. Not sure what he needs to protest about regarding fees, but glad he's been identified and I hope he gets flayed for it.

Sewinman

cjcp wrote:

Sewinman wrote:

If you took the trouble to wee-wee on one of my family's graves I would think you might need to get some help!

Is it that you're just very laid back or you just don't care? I'd go effin' bananas, not just think "the men in white coats'll be after you, sunshine, so you'd better pack it in."

Maybe I am very laid back - I am increasingly noticing that I don't get angry about a lot of the stuff most people seem to do. It would depend how badly they needed to go, I suppose.

So far on this thread I have been called vermin, speculation about people smashing up my house and people pissing on my family's grave! Heady stuff!

Maxticate

Dave Gilmours Son eh?

I thought it was a girl in big boots.

Still I think he deserves to be ejected from Cambridge for that regardless of ignorance.