Why did the Merlin thread get locked?

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Comments

  • Andyb10
    Andyb10 Posts: 126
    not sure that Wiggle are too impressed by ABG either

    http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/wiggle ... ycle-group
  • Labrat6
    Labrat6 Posts: 5
    edited December 2010
    I've been following the thread, but not posted so far - however I've got a couple of daft questions...

    i) Unless I'm mistaken - you bought the frame in the States didn't you? so, you set out to save a few quid by importing for yourself and cutting the UK importers out of the loop...

    ii) Surely in doing so, you knew that you'd end up without a UK warranty! So, why the whining?

    iii) Why try and serve small claims papers on the someone in the UK when you bought the frame in the states?

    Sorry, I'll just reiterate that... Your issue is NOT with the UK importer, its with the Retailer you bought it off in the states, and the American manufacturer, and would be settled under US laws.
  • calvjones
    calvjones Posts: 3,850
    Nickwill wrote:
    maryka wrote:
    How timely: Merlin's website has a "news" item as of Dec. 4, 2010 linking to a Road.cc review of the Cielo ("A fabulous frameset built to incredibly high standards" :lol:)

    Comments are still open.

    Infopete, still no luck getting the corporate address of ABG in the UK? Surely that's worth pursuing legally?
    It would appear that someone linked to this thread on Road.cc, and by magic the post and link disappeared. So much for freedom of speech

    Cycling website of the year that. In Burma.
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  • bendertherobot
    bendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    Andyb10 wrote:
    not sure that Wiggle are too impressed by ABG either

    http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/wiggle ... ycle-group

    Tis a shame there's no reference to "RRP is important to us to mantain our product support and after sales service."

    ;)
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  • dodgy
    dodgy Posts: 2,890
    Andyb10 wrote:
    not sure that Wiggle are too impressed by ABG either

    http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/wiggle ... ycle-group

    Good grief. :shock:
  • bendertherobot
    bendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    Mind you, that piece is 6 years old.
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  • MarcBC
    MarcBC Posts: 333
    bompington wrote:
    MarcBC wrote:
    Surely the UK distributor can be located by talking to a UK retailer of Merlin frames. Wiggle for example may help, and give you some Haribo!
    You mean Wiggle haven't helped out yet? And no Haribo either?

    I knew it was Wiggle's fault.

    :wink:
  • bendertherobot
    bendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    Labrat6 wrote:
    I've been following the thread, but not posted so far - however I've got a couple of daft questions...

    i) Unless I'm mistaken - you bought the frame in the States didn't you? so, you set out to save a few quid by importing for yourself and cutting the UK importers out of the loop...

    ii) Surely in doing so, you knew that you'd end up without a UK warranty! So, why the whining?

    iii) Why try and serve small claims papers on the someone in the UK when you bought the frame in the states?

    Sorry, I'll just reiterate that... Your issue is NOT with the UK importer, its with the Retailer you bought it off in the states, and the American manufacturer, and would be settled under US laws.

    Point of sale is a grey area. If the buyer is in the UK the UK courts have jurisdiction to hear the complaint.
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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  • Gazzaputt
    Gazzaputt Posts: 3,227
    AMG are doing their best to kill their business.

    News of this thread is spreading and the letter to Wiggle will only help enforce the dim view being taken of AMG.
  • bendertherobot
    bendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    The letter was 6 years ago!
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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  • Captain Fagor
    Captain Fagor Posts: 739
    Infopete - if you are still in need of contact details within ABG, I have some email addresses and phone numbers from my previous (ultimately unfruitful) dealings with Litespeed / Real Design circa November 2007. Perhaps some of these individuals still work with the company.

    I will send you a PM with the details. Best of luck in your dealings with them.
  • Labrat6
    Labrat6 Posts: 5
    bendertherobot wrote:

    Point of sale is a grey area. If the buyer is in the UK the UK courts have jurisdiction to hear the complaint.

    Surely its far from being a grey area - US company, sells product to customer via US retailer, with US warranty - you'd be laughed out of court!

    As he should be too!

    He chose to take the risk of buying from the US direct, as such, why the hell should they cover the warranty? He's fisted himself by choosing to save a few quid!
  • bendertherobot
    bendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    edited December 2010
    Labrat6 wrote:
    bendertherobot wrote:

    Point of sale is a grey area. If the buyer is in the UK the UK courts have jurisdiction to hear the complaint.

    Surely its far from being a grey area - US company, sells product to customer via US retailer, with US warranty - you'd be laughed out of court!

    As he should be too!

    He chose to take the risk of buying from the US direct, as such, why the hell should they cover the warranty? He's fisted himself by choosing to save a few quid!

    Customer in UK, purchase completed in UK over the internet.

    Why do you assume the seller domicile has jurisdiction?

    As to why they should honour the warranty. Because it's a warranty?

    Low posting member as well. Interesting, very very interesting. 2 posts on this thread, how come this one got you animated enough to post? ;)
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  • fleshtuxedo
    fleshtuxedo Posts: 1,860
    Labrat6 wrote:
    bendertherobot wrote:

    Point of sale is a grey area. If the buyer is in the UK the UK courts have jurisdiction to hear the complaint.

    Surely its far from being a grey area - US company, sells product to customer via US retailer, with US warranty - you'd be laughed out of court!

    As he should be too!

    He chose to take the risk of buying from the US direct, as such, why the hell should they cover the warranty? He's fisted himself by choosing to save a few quid!

    Does the Merlin warranty exclude the manufacturer from their responsibility to provide a fit for purpose product to anyone from outside the country of purchase?

    I know these clauses are pretty common, but does that apply for Merlin sales in the US? Assuming they do, what is the justification? Why should someone from another country not get the same protection as anyone else?

    You seem to be taking a pretty confrontational view, labrat. Their product failed and they messed him around (he sent it them in the states at considerable expense and effort) and then they apparently tried to say it had been crash damaged when apparently it hadn't. Then, their agents in the UK reported him to the police on apparently flimsy grounds.

    I think that's "why the hell" there's more than enough grounds for them to do the right thing, regardless of the fine print.

    Do you have some sort of axe to grind here?
  • bendertherobot
    bendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    The case law is a "grey area," as I stated above. It's interesting to note that Merlin's website (top right hand corner) has the option of selecting US/UK. Targetting of a territory in ecommerce is one of the jurisdictional points.
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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  • Captain Fagor
    Captain Fagor Posts: 739
    dodgy wrote:
    Good grief. :shock:

    Hey dodgy - you might want to link this thread to your signature. It's another fine advert for Litespeed (albeit a superseded model and headtube detail):

    http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... rd&start=0
  • dodgy
    dodgy Posts: 2,890
    I'm at maximum signature size already :) I do remember the Litespeed integrated headset issue from back then, I'm always checking out bikes that match the description at the cafe :twisted:
  • dcj
    dcj Posts: 395
    the office of fair trading must be asleep. :shock:

    if the ABG letter posted about maintaining retail price was six years ago, what the hell were the OFT doing spending a fortune investigating other retail industries when right here, we have a distributor basically admitting to it in writing without any apparent awareness of the fate that could have befallen his employer and himself.

    companies have been fined 10% of worldwide turnover even attempting (or being suspected of attempting) to fix retail prices. IT IS COMPLETELY ILLEGAL with very very few exemptions.
  • antfly
    antfly Posts: 3,276
    I'm not sure it's actually illegal, it's quite common in retail with high end products. They don't have to deal with Wiggle if they don't want to.
    Smarter than the average bear.
  • EKIMIKE
    EKIMIKE Posts: 2,232
    But did they actually carry out the act of fixing prices (i'm not sure what the law stipulates here)?

    Is the law even applicable to the situation (discounting)?

    How do you know they didn't get a good talking to from the OFT?

    Go on wiggle right now and type in Quintana Roo and see the discounts. 3X% in many cases. That would suggest the issue has been resolved.

    Again. 2004 fella's. It's not currently relevant.

    I have no doubt that ABG are possibly acting with a heavy hand in this situation but before we all get hysterical, let's clarify the relevant, current facts of the situation.
    Canyon Endurace CF 2014 | Canyon Ultimate CF 2010
  • dcj
    dcj Posts: 395
    the EU laws on cartels, price fixing and or attempting to maintain rrp's are strict for most but not all consumer and other goods.

    a quick trawl dug up this from yesterday....
    http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/363391/eu-to-fine-lg-for-display-price-fixing

    i don't doubt it still is widespread in the bike industry, but that's not the same thing as being legal, its just that the authorities are in a target rich environment and haven't focused on the bike trade yet.
  • wav3ydave
    wav3ydave Posts: 4
    Nickwill wrote:
    It would appear that someone linked to this thread on Road.cc, and by magic the post and link disappeared. So much for freedom of speech

    no they didn't, and no it didn't. someone *has* just posted on this, but that's the first time it's happened
  • antfly
    antfly Posts: 3,276
    dcj wrote:
    the EU laws on cartels, price fixing and or attempting to maintain rrp's are strict for most but not all consumer and other goods.

    a quick trawl dug up this from yesterday....
    http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/363391/eu-to-fine-lg-for-display-price-fixing

    i don't doubt it still is widespread in the bike industry, but that's not the same thing as being legal, its just that the authorities are in a target rich environment and haven't focused on the bike trade yet.

    That's about different companies colluding on prices, it's perfectly ok and normal for a manufacturer to set a price for their product to be sold at. It would be relevant if all frame manufacturers were selling their frames at the same price, for example.
    Smarter than the average bear.
  • drawkrb
    drawkrb Posts: 1
    i work for a world wide electronics company. The min usa warranty is 90 days by law any other is up to the manufacturer if you buy there products in usa and bring it in here you have to send it back to usa.you have no comeback on uk distributor or under trading standards. as regards wiggle you do not know what there contract says they may not own any of there stock.
  • dcj
    dcj Posts: 395
    hi antfly

    i agree with you setting rrps is not illegal in most categories.

    however, trying to force retailers to stick to them most definitely would be considered anti-competitive by the OFT and is in breach of EU laws for most categories include bikes.

    the link about cartels is relevent because it happened on monday and demonstrates the penalities and power available to the EU that can also be applied to the other anti-competive practices i mentioned on my previous email

    sorry if this gets peoples goat, but these laws have been around for years.
    yet big businesses are still getting hit with massive fines - in some cases, even prison.

    some people on the forum might find it hard to accept that the laws exist but to be fair that is not surprising if the business world doesn't fully grasp the implications either.
  • antfly
    antfly Posts: 3,276
    It may be a grey legal area in theory but AGB are hardly big business with a dominant market position. Small businesses don't have to worry about competition laws, in the real world.
    Smarter than the average bear.
  • dcj
    dcj Posts: 395
    i agree with you that probably up to now the bike industry is too small to warrant the unblinking focus of the OFT.
  • infopete
    infopete Posts: 878
    Hi All,

    The man from the American Bicycle Group has emailed me to say an offer is on it's way.

    The offer includes a Litespeed carbon frame and "terms".

    I've looked at the Litespeed site at their carbon range and I can't help feeling that offering me a Litespeed carbon frame to replace my rather expensive and beautiful Merlin Cielo is like a Bentley owner taking his car to be serviced and returning with a Skoda. Do you think I'm being too picky?

    And.... there are much promised "terms"!
    Oh and please remember to click on my blog:

    http://americanbicyclegroup.wordpress.com

    The more clicks I get the higher it creeps up the google radar :)
  • Percy Vera
    Percy Vera Posts: 1,103
    Push for something of the same value or more.

    If/when you do receive it, sell it!! You don't want to go through this again if it breaks!
  • zanes
    zanes Posts: 563
    infopete wrote:
    Hi All,

    The man from the American Bicycle Group has emailed me to say an offer is on it's way.

    The offer includes a Litespeed carbon frame and "terms".

    I've looked at the Litespeed site at their carbon range and I can't help feeling that offering me a Litespeed carbon frame to replace my rather expensive and beautiful Merlin Cielo is like a Bentley owner taking his car to be serviced and returning with a Skoda. Do you think I'm being too picky?

    And.... there are much promised "terms"!

    I bet you the terms are along the lines of "delete all threads and mentions of this issue online" and "don't talk about this (including the police visit) ever again"

    Sorry ABG, the damage has already been done for me.

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