Turbo Training for endurance

jamie_smoove

Hello All,

Ive been browsing the forums for a while taking in plenty of great information, but its now about time I asked some questions of my own.

I intend to give road racing a go next year(50 milers maximum) and am currently in the process of putting together a training plan.

I have only been road riding about 5 weeks, however I am generally quite fit having rode a mountain bike on and off for a few years, and running (upto 16 miles) and generally keeping fit for work. I managed a 40 miler with my local club just 5 days after getting my bike in about 2 hours 22 ish. (I did start to fall back in the last 5 miles!)

I know that at this time of year I should be building an aerobic base, and I am doing this at the weekend by completing a long ride on a Saturday and a Sunday. Normally 25-30 miles on a Sat, with 45-60 on a Sunday. However, I am not able to get outdoors during the week, so I have invested in a turbo trainer to use on Tues, Wed, and Thurs, but am at a loose end as to how best to use this time.

The reason for my dilema is all the counteracting advice/information on the internet! Many people say you cant do anything too intensive during the early phase whilst others say its okay? The long rides will always continue on a weekend, so I was hoping to do intervals/hill climbs, maybe even some sufferfest stuff mid week?

Opinions?

Thanks for taking the time to read this, and even more thanks in advance if you take the time to reply.

Jamie

SteveR_100Milers

Most club riders survive the winter with one long ride at the weekend, maybe a couple of shorter ones in the week and an intensive one (turbo, track etc). I wouldn't get too hung up on it, if you are doing a mix of LSD and some intensive stuff and more than 6 hours a week you will have a good base by March. It's all I ever do and I didn't too badly last year, though I was pretty crap at my attempts of road racing...

Garz

I would use the turbo in the week for interval training. High cadence work, grinding, form and mix it up with sufferfest vids you get the idea.

Chiggy

To improve endurance.

"Endurance" can be otherwise be described as "offsetting or delaying fatigue". To delay the onset of fatigue, it is necessary to improve the oxygen carrying systems in the body.

Low oxygen transportation means earlier build up of lactic acid which ends in muscle contraction being inhibited.

Lactate threshold is where there is an insufficient supply of oxygen for the work demand. After sucessive exercise sessions ( one really good blast once each week ) the pulmonary and circulatory systems will grow and adapt to this new regular workload.

Exercise should be done at sub-maximal intensities over longer periods each session. Sub-maximal means 'just below lactate threshold'. To quantify this, it will be necessary to test for lactate threshold regularly, as it will rise as your oxygen carrying systems improve.

On the turbo, warm up properly and then give it a good sound thrashing until your legs burn. Then give yourself two day rest. You may get Delayed Onset of Muscular Soreness. During the soreness, take it easy and feed up on good quality proteins.

Don't forget to stretch out before and after, and on rest days.

sagalout

I'm following the black book (see other thread about intervals during base).

I've decided to just follow the advice in there in general. That means at the moment I'm doing base work on the turbo through the week. In summary I've doing:

Monday - Rest
Tuesday - Endurance L2 - 1hr
Wednesday - Endurance L2 - 1hr
Thursday - Endurance L2 - 1hr
Friday - Rest
Saturday - Road ride upper L1 - Lower L2 - 3 hours
Sunday - Road ride L2 - 2 hours

Thats exactly as prescribed in the book. Endurance on the turbo is a bit dull, but I tend to go at the upper end, about 80% MHR so its not stupidly easy and you still get a sweat on.

To make the time go faster I spend one minute in each gear, going up and down the cassete, but keeping a constant power output. You have to concentrate on your cadence, which ranges between 55 and 120.

Works for me anyway. I did a lot of intervals last winter year and was in great shape at xmas.....not so good in March lol.

sagalout

double post

sagalout

tripple post doh

jamie_smoove

sagalout wrote:

I'm following the black book (see other thread about intervals during base).

I've decided to just follow the advice in there in general. That means at the moment I'm doing base work on the turbo through the week. In summary I've doing:

Monday - Rest
Tuesday - Endurance L2 - 1hr
Wednesday - Endurance L2 - 1hr
Thursday - Endurance L2 - 1hr
Friday - Rest
Saturday - Road ride upper L1 - Lower L2 - 3 hours
Sunday - Road ride L2 - 2 hours

Thats exactly as prescribed in the book. Endurance on the turbo is a bit dull, but I tend to go at the upper end, about 80% MHR so its not stupidly easy and you still get a sweat on.

To make the time go faster I spend one minute in each gear, going up and down the cassete, but keeping a constant power output. You have to concentrate on your cadence, which ranges between 55 and 120.

Works for me anyway. I did a lot of intervals last winter year and was in great shape at xmas.....not so good in March lol.

Why were you not in as good a shape in March? Surely you only loose fitness if you dont keep up the training??

Alex_Simmons/RST

Chiggy wrote:

Lactate threshold is where there is an insufficient supply of oxygen for the work demand.

LT refers to blood lactate concentration levels as intensity (power output) changes. LT occurs well below a state of VO2 max, and oxygen is in plenty of supply.

We can sustain a state of riding at LT for a long time, several hours when reasonably fit.

At higher blood lactate levels, such as maximal lactate steady state, then the time one can sustain the effort shortens to more like an hour.

Chiggy wrote:

Exercise should be done at sub-maximal intensities over longer periods each session. Sub-maximal means 'just below lactate threshold'. To quantify this, it will be necessary to test for lactate threshold regularly, as it will rise as your oxygen carrying systems improve.

It is not necessary to test for lactate threshold at all in order to train well, let alone test for it regularly.

Thick Tester

Just ride your bike and stick with the club - If you can keep up with the experienced racers when they choose to start turning the screw then you'll be reet.

Chiggy

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Chiggy wrote:

Lactate threshold is where there is an insufficient supply of oxygen for the work demand.

LT refers to blood lactate concentration levels as intensity (power output) changes. LT occurs well below a state of VO2 max, and oxygen is in plenty of supply.

We can sustain a state of riding at LT for a long time, several hours when reasonably fit.

At higher blood lactate levels, such as maximal lactate steady state, then the time one can sustain the effort shortens to more like an hour.

Chiggy wrote:

Exercise should be done at sub-maximal intensities over longer periods each session. Sub-maximal means 'just below lactate threshold'. To quantify this, it will be necessary to test for lactate threshold regularly, as it will rise as your oxygen carrying systems improve.

It is not necessary to test for lactate threshold at all in order to train well, let alone test for it regularly.

The common perception of LT is based on the thought of the whole muscle. Rectus Femoris for example. The whole muscle is comprised of thousands of individual fibres, arranged in bundles. These fibres are either slow or fast twitch, for the sake of not overcomplicating matters.
Some fibres might be working in a state where they can sustain the intensity at a sub VO2 max level, which is where we want them to be. Others however, those which are less trained and have insufficient capillarisation will be working in a lactic or even phosphocreatine situation.
So, one named muscle could be operating in all three energy producing situations simultaneously.
This is why the muscle feels lactic when you know there is a bountiful supply of oxygen present.
Think of your whole muscle as a multi cylinder engine. One cylinder may have an airflow problem due to inlet manifold turbulence. That cylinder may misfire.

As muscular activity gradually increases in intensity over a series of sessions, an increased number of bundles will be prepared for the new activity during rest. Increase intensity further and these newly recruited bundles will be used. Increase intensity even further and more previously inactive bundles will be called to duty and will eventually be operating in a lactic situation.

The cycle continues until the individual is ‘musclebound’ and either very strong or very durable, depending on the type of fibres possessed.

Bronzie

jamie_smoove wrote:

Many people say you cant do anything too intensive during the early phase whilst others say its okay?

Depends on how you define "too intensive". IMO there's more than one way to build a "base" level of fitness, and doing exclusively L2 endurance rides* is not necessarily the best option unless you have a lot (>15 hrs a week) training time available.

Personally, I can't do much more than an hour on the turbo without losing the will to live / feeling in the undercarriage so I use it exclusively for Level 3 (ie 45-60 mins @ 75-80% MHR) and Level 4 (ie 2 x 20 mins @ 80-85% MHR) work at the moment.

I will be adding more intense interval sessions (Levels 5-6) in the 6-8 weeks before my first race in March.

* - Note my reference to L2 is to the Coggan Training Levels (see link in sig line) rather than Pete Read's Black Book levels (Pete Read's L2 corresponds roughly to Coggan's L3 IIRC).

Chiggy

Bronzie wrote:

jamie_smoove wrote:

Many people say you cant do anything too intensive during the early phase whilst others say its okay?

Depends on how you define "too intensive". IMO there's more than one way to build a "base" level of fitness, and doing exclusively L2 endurance rides* is not necessarily the best option unless you have a lot (>15 hrs a week) training time available.

Personally, I can't do much more than an hour on the turbo without losing the will to live / feeling in the undercarriage so I use it exclusively for Level 3 (ie 45-60 mins @ 75-80% MHR) and Level 4 (ie 2 x 20 mins @ 80-85% MHR) work at the moment.

I will be adding more intense interval sessions (Levels 5-6) in the 6-8 weeks before my first race in March.

* - Note my reference to L2 is to the Coggan Training Levels (see link in sig line) rather than Pete Read's Black Book levels (Pete Read's L2 corresponds roughly to Coggan's L3 IIRC).

That link is an interesting read.

I’ve evaluated my ergometer training to be mostly level 4, and levels 5 – 6 once a week; and I only do Audax.

sagalout

Bronzie wrote:

jamie_smoove wrote:

Many people say you cant do anything too intensive during the early phase whilst others say its okay?

Depends on how you define "too intensive". IMO there's more than one way to build a "base" level of fitness, and doing exclusively L2 endurance rides* is not necessarily the best option unless you have a lot (>15 hrs a week) training time available.

Personally, I can't do much more than an hour on the turbo without losing the will to live / feeling in the undercarriage so I use it exclusively for Level 3 (ie 45-60 mins @ 75-80% MHR) and Level 4 (ie 2 x 20 mins @ 80-85% MHR) work at the moment.

I will be adding more intense interval sessions (Levels 5-6) in the 6-8 weeks before my first race in March.

* - Note my reference to L2 is to the Coggan Training Levels (see link in sig line) rather than Pete Read's Black Book levels (Pete Read's L2 corresponds roughly to Coggan's L3 IIRC).

Thats pretty much the level I'm doing my turbo endurance hours too - ie Pete Reads L2. It definitely feels like a solid workout after the hour, although not the 'about to fall off the bike and be sick' feeling from doing sufferfest

Bronzie

sagalout wrote:

It definitely feels like a solid workout after the hour, although not the 'about to fall off the bike and be sick' feeling from doing sufferfest

Yeah, feels fairly easy going for the first 20 minutes but it starts to burn after 40 mins or so.

phreak

I'm doing similar workouts, an hour to 90 minutes worth of tempo riding. Generally preparing for riding some big hills in Italy next summer so try and mix up the time by changing the cadence to replicate what's likely to happen out there.

To the OP, I did much the same last year and my riding improved quite a bit.

Determination

I think the theory is that you cannot stay at your strongest for the whole year. So, if you start training hard early, you will peak early in the season when most of the races havent started yet and thus you will end up being more fatigued come mid summer. I think most people start the hard training after christmas.

Anonymous

At the moment I'm doing a mix of 'sweetspot' and z1-2 (coggan)

jibberjim

Determination wrote:

I think the theory is that you cannot stay at your strongest for the whole year.

Which might actually be true if you're a trained athlete, however if you're totally untrained, or even partially trained then you'll have no problem getting continously better throughout the year.

Anonymous

I'm at that stage where I'm steadily improving with no drop off, or 'peak'...

Alex_Simmons/RST

Chiggy wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Chiggy wrote:

Lactate threshold is where there is an insufficient supply of oxygen for the work demand.

LT refers to blood lactate concentration levels as intensity (power output) changes. LT occurs well below a state of VO2 max, and oxygen is in plenty of supply.

We can sustain a state of riding at LT for a long time, several hours when reasonably fit.

At higher blood lactate levels, such as maximal lactate steady state, then the time one can sustain the effort shortens to more like an hour.

Chiggy wrote:

Exercise should be done at sub-maximal intensities over longer periods each session. Sub-maximal means 'just below lactate threshold'. To quantify this, it will be necessary to test for lactate threshold regularly, as it will rise as your oxygen carrying systems improve.

It is not necessary to test for lactate threshold at all in order to train well, let alone test for it regularly.

The common perception of LT is based on the thought of the whole muscle. Rectus Femoris for example. The whole muscle is comprised of thousands of individual fibres, arranged in bundles. These fibres are either slow or fast twitch, for the sake of not overcomplicating matters.
Some fibres might be working in a state where they can sustain the intensity at a sub VO2 max level, which is where we want them to be. Others however, those which are less trained and have insufficient capillarisation will be working in a lactic or even phosphocreatine situation.
So, one named muscle could be operating in all three energy producing situations simultaneously.
This is why the muscle feels lactic when you know there is a bountiful supply of oxygen present.
Think of your whole muscle as a multi cylinder engine. One cylinder may have an airflow problem due to inlet manifold turbulence. That cylinder may misfire.

As muscular activity gradually increases in intensity over a series of sessions, an increased number of bundles will be prepared for the new activity during rest. Increase intensity further and these newly recruited bundles will be used. Increase intensity even further and more previously inactive bundles will be called to duty and will eventually be operating in a lactic situation.

The cycle continues until the individual is ‘musclebound’ and either very strong or very durable, depending on the type of fibres possessed.

That's all very nice but suggesting riding at LT is anything but a predominantly aerobic activity is misleading. As is suggesting one needs to test for it in order to train well.

Chiggy

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Chiggy wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Chiggy wrote:

Lactate threshold is where there is an insufficient supply of oxygen for the work demand.

LT refers to blood lactate concentration levels as intensity (power output) changes. LT occurs well below a state of VO2 max, and oxygen is in plenty of supply.

We can sustain a state of riding at LT for a long time, several hours when reasonably fit.

At higher blood lactate levels, such as maximal lactate steady state, then the time one can sustain the effort shortens to more like an hour.

Chiggy wrote:

Exercise should be done at sub-maximal intensities over longer periods each session. Sub-maximal means 'just below lactate threshold'. To quantify this, it will be necessary to test for lactate threshold regularly, as it will rise as your oxygen carrying systems improve.

It is not necessary to test for lactate threshold at all in order to train well, let alone test for it regularly.

The common perception of LT is based on the thought of the whole muscle. Rectus Femoris for example. The whole muscle is comprised of thousands of individual fibres, arranged in bundles. These fibres are either slow or fast twitch, for the sake of not overcomplicating matters.
Some fibres might be working in a state where they can sustain the intensity at a sub VO2 max level, which is where we want them to be. Others however, those which are less trained and have insufficient capillarisation will be working in a lactic or even phosphocreatine situation.
So, one named muscle could be operating in all three energy producing situations simultaneously.
This is why the muscle feels lactic when you know there is a bountiful supply of oxygen present.
Think of your whole muscle as a multi cylinder engine. One cylinder may have an airflow problem due to inlet manifold turbulence. That cylinder may misfire.

As muscular activity gradually increases in intensity over a series of sessions, an increased number of bundles will be prepared for the new activity during rest. Increase intensity further and these newly recruited bundles will be used. Increase intensity even further and more previously inactive bundles will be called to duty and will eventually be operating in a lactic situation.

The cycle continues until the individual is ‘musclebound’ and either very strong or very durable, depending on the type of fibres possessed.

That's all very nice but suggesting riding at LT is anything but a predominantly aerobic activity is misleading. As is suggesting one needs to test for it in order to train well.

What are metrics of cycle ergometer training?

Anonymous

There's some long quotes clogging up this thread!

Chiggy

NapoleonD wrote:

There's some long quotes clogging up this thread!

Use your Mouse wheel to scroll down.

Anonymous

Use your mouse to edit out the unnecessary requoting.

jamie_smoove

Thanks for all the replies guys.. Much appreciated.

I think I will use the turbo to do mainly level 3 (hr based). I think this is where i'll get the most benefit at this stage.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Chiggy wrote:

What are metrics of cycle ergometer training?

Not sure what you are asking.

If it's, "what metrics are most useful when training on an ergometer?" then I would say that (accurate) power output is the most important metric.

Failing that, then something that can act as a reasonable proxy for power. On a few turbos (not all) then rear wheel speed may do that, if the many variables (tyre pressures, roller press on force, resistance unit heat dissipation etc) can be controlled and maintain consistency.

That's a big "if" though as many trainers won't have a consistent power-speed relationship session to session or even during a training session.

Sans power, then perceived effort level is next best bet. HR can be helpful as a guide but if you have (accurate) power info, then HR is at best redundant, at worst misleading.

Chiggy

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Chiggy wrote:

What are metrics of cycle ergometer training?

Not sure what you are asking.

If it's, "what metrics are most useful when training on an ergometer?" then I would say that (accurate) power output is the most important metric.

Failing that, then something that can act as a reasonable proxy for power. On a few turbos (not all) then rear wheel speed may do that, if the many variables (tyre pressures, roller press on force, resistance unit heat dissipation etc) can be controlled and maintain consistency.

That's a big "if" though as many trainers won't have a consistent power-speed relationship session to session or even during a training session.

Sans power, then perceived effort level is next best bet. HR can be helpful as a guide but if you have (accurate) power info, then HR is at best redundant, at worst misleading.

Very good response and I totally agree.

#1 – Power, because that's what makes the bike move forward.
Getting this consistent and repeatable is costly.

#2 – VO2. To do it properly with gas analysis is very expensive ( Google 'Horiba' for details ).

#3 – Blood Lactate mmol/l. Moderately expensive and invasive. Requires attendants.

#4 – HRM. Inexpensive. For indication only, and as you say, 'as a guide' and 'at worse, misleading'.


#1 is what we are aiming to improve. #2 and #3 are metrics to evaluate our body's physiology. #4 is merely the consequence of hard work.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Chiggy wrote:

Very good response and I totally agree.

#1 – Power, because that's what makes the bike move forward.
Getting this consistent and repeatable is costly.

#2 – VO2. To do it properly with gas analysis is very expensive ( Google 'Horiba' for details ).

#3 – Blood Lactate mmol/l. Moderately expensive and invasive. Requires attendants.

#4 – HRM. Inexpensive. For indication only, and as you say, 'as a guide' and 'at worse, misleading'.


#1 is what we are aiming to improve. #2 and #3 are metrics to evaluate our body's physiology. #4 is merely the consequence of hard work.

#1 (power) is a far more useful indicator for evaluating our body's physiology than the others. In fact BL can itself be quite misleading depending on the method used to measure it.

Depending on what is considered expensive (that's different for everyone), new and accurate power meters for cycling are available from ~ $700.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Some thoughts on the various means of assessing intensity (the most important element in training):
http://cyclecoach.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=166#p166

Chiggy

Power Output is the result of all our training efforts.

Power can be used to co-relate from the last dyno test. BUT, between then and now, the body has re-tuned itself to get more fuel and O2 to the business end.

Without any other measurements ( V02, BL & HR ) an increase in peak kW in our repeated test schedule will tell us we are stronger than last week.

Durabilty wise, a continuous exertion of x kW 'should' be able to be sustained for a longer period of time before fatigue failure.
Likewise, hill intervals at the same intensity 'should' be increasing in number as the weeks go by.