Students
Comments
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notsoblue wrote:W1 wrote:whyamihere wrote:
It's not the 15 year olds protesting though, it's current students. Current students won't be affected by the cuts. At all.el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:Most of the protesters probably haven't even read the proposals (going by the comments from last time) and just want an excuse to act like a yob.
In which case I hope the police treat them in the same way they would any other mindless hooligan.
If you're 15 and disenfrachised yet facing £27,000 of debt just to get a degree then what other means of connection with the government do you have? Good luck to them
Exactly. Get real - the people out there smashing up police vans aren't going to be hit by this one jot.
It's just an excuse for a riot.
Soooooo, nobody should be protesting about this at all? Or only 15 yr olds should be out protesting? Have you considered that some of the students might want to do Masters or PhD? This would affect them.
Once again, I don't object to the protest, but I DO object to violence and mindless vandalism. The fact that it's being undertaken by people who (a) have no idea what they are protesting about and (b) wouldn't be affected either way simply adds to the objectionable nature of today's (and the last) riots.0 -
Do you think that employers are still going to be demanding degrees if there's far fewer people going to uni? If they do, they're going to have far fewer applicants, and won't be able to fill spaces.Rick Chasey wrote:Students are angry because employers demand degrees, and yet those same employers demand students pay for the priviledge, despite the fact that that said generation screwed the economy and thus the young job prospects. Said generation has laden the country with ridiculous debt, and are now demanding the students who will eventually be tasked with paying off said debt to take on even more debt to try and get the quickly dissapearing jobs. Not cool.
If it does mean that fewer people go to uni, then hopefully employers will be encouraged to start doing apprenticeships again, or taking on staff without a degree where a degree isn't needed.
For what it's worth, I'm a current student, and when I graduate I'll have just under £30,000 of debt, with the current fee system. My family isn't rich, there's no way they could afford to pay £30,000 for me to get a degree. But am I bothered by this debt? Not a jot. Frankly, I'd be happy to pay a lot more, as I consider the degree I hope to have by the end of it worth the money.0 -
W1 wrote:el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:TheStone wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:
You might change your mind about the same people in 20 years time when you're begging for a pension... :roll:
Students are angry because employers demand degrees, and yet those same employers demand students pay for the priviledge, despite the fact that that said generation screwed the economy and thus the young job prospects. Said generation has laden the country with ridiculous debt, and are now demanding the students who will eventually be tasked with paying off said debt to take on even more debt to try and get the quickly dissapearing jobs. Not cool.
Spot on. Kids are getting screwed. The sooner they wake up and start taking some stuff back the better.
Feel free to give them your house/TV/wages if you feel that strongly about it......
The last 10 years credit boom and exponenential growth of the national debt has severely impacted the younger generations chance of ever getting a house. They might be trying to steal yours in a few years time.
Because in the last 10 years no first time buyer has bought a house?
a) that's not true b) what's your point?<a>road</a>0 -
You do realise that there's already no cap on fees for masters degrees or PHDs don't you?notsoblue wrote:W1 wrote:whyamihere wrote:
It's not the 15 year olds protesting though, it's current students. Current students won't be affected by the cuts. At all.el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:Most of the protesters probably haven't even read the proposals (going by the comments from last time) and just want an excuse to act like a yob.
In which case I hope the police treat them in the same way they would any other mindless hooligan.
If you're 15 and disenfrachised yet facing £27,000 of debt just to get a degree then what other means of connection with the government do you have? Good luck to them
Exactly. Get real - the people out there smashing up police vans aren't going to be hit by this one jot.
It's just an excuse for a riot.
Soooooo, nobody should be protesting about this at all? Or only 15 yr olds should be out protesting? Have you considered that some of the students might want to do Masters or PhD? This would affect them.0 -
el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:TheStone wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:
You might change your mind about the same people in 20 years time when you're begging for a pension... :roll:
Students are angry because employers demand degrees, and yet those same employers demand students pay for the priviledge, despite the fact that that said generation screwed the economy and thus the young job prospects. Said generation has laden the country with ridiculous debt, and are now demanding the students who will eventually be tasked with paying off said debt to take on even more debt to try and get the quickly dissapearing jobs. Not cool.
Spot on. Kids are getting screwed. The sooner they wake up and start taking some stuff back the better.
Feel free to give them your house/TV/wages if you feel that strongly about it......
The last 10 years credit boom and exponenential growth of the national debt has severely impacted the younger generations chance of ever getting a house. They might be trying to steal yours in a few years time.
Because in the last 10 years no first time buyer has bought a house?
a) that's not true b) what's your point?
The point is that it's not impossible to buy a house - and there is no housing ladder without people at the bottomw. So you're incorrect - the younger generations have not been "severely impacted" and will have a chance to buy a house....
What was your point? That because of house price inflation you support violenc and vandalism?0 -
whyamihere wrote:
Do you think that employers are still going to be demanding degrees if there's far fewer people going to uni? If they do, they're going to have far fewer applicants, and won't be able to fill spaces.Rick Chasey wrote:Students are angry because employers demand degrees, and yet those same employers demand students pay for the priviledge, despite the fact that that said generation screwed the economy and thus the young job prospects. Said generation has laden the country with ridiculous debt, and are now demanding the students who will eventually be tasked with paying off said debt to take on even more debt to try and get the quickly dissapearing jobs. Not cool.
If it does mean that fewer people go to uni, then hopefully employers will be encouraged to start doing apprenticeships again, or taking on staff without a degree where a degree isn't needed.
For what it's worth, I'm a current student, and when I graduate I'll have just under £30,000 of debt, with the current fee system. My family isn't rich, there's no way they could afford to pay £30,000 for me to get a degree. But am I bothered by this debt? Not a jot. Frankly, I'd be happy to pay a lot more, as I consider the degree I hope to have by the end of it worth the money.
I don't know what your degree is in but going by what you say it's obviously something worthwhile hence the reason you're happy to pay back your fees.
The problem seems to be that too many students seem to think that everyone should pay for their pointless degree in Bosnian Music History or some other such subject and then they can have an easy life for an extra three years before they have to go out and get themselves a job at McDonalds!0 -
W1 wrote:
The point is that it's not impossible to buy a house - and there is no housing ladder without people at the bottomw. So you're incorrect - the younger generations have not been "severely impacted" and will have a chance to buy a house....
What was your point? That because of house price inflation you support violenc and vandalism?
.... all part of the same intergenerational theft.
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W1 wrote:What was your point? That because of house price inflation you support violenc and vandalism?
The issue with students is nothing to do with the violence.
You get big crowds and there will inevitably be people who are not particularly responsible or law abiding - just like anywhere else in the world.
The issue is the politics that has caused the need to have the large protest in the first place.
There needs to be a discussion on this that goes beyond the interest of the individidual; instead throwing wider thought to the interest of society as a whole, and then consider what is ultimately the best compromise.
Universities are chronically short of money, and there isn't enough tax money right now to pay for it. Yet British universities are one of the UKs greatest assets.0 -
W1 wrote:el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:TheStone wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:
You might change your mind about the same people in 20 years time when you're begging for a pension... :roll:
Students are angry because employers demand degrees, and yet those same employers demand students pay for the priviledge, despite the fact that that said generation screwed the economy and thus the young job prospects. Said generation has laden the country with ridiculous debt, and are now demanding the students who will eventually be tasked with paying off said debt to take on even more debt to try and get the quickly dissapearing jobs. Not cool.
Spot on. Kids are getting screwed. The sooner they wake up and start taking some stuff back the better.
Feel free to give them your house/TV/wages if you feel that strongly about it......
The last 10 years credit boom and exponenential growth of the national debt has severely impacted the younger generations chance of ever getting a house. They might be trying to steal yours in a few years time.
Because in the last 10 years no first time buyer has bought a house?
a) that's not true b) what's your point?
The point is that it's not impossible to buy a house - and there is no housing ladder without people at the bottomw. So you're incorrect - the younger generations have not been "severely impacted" and will have a chance to buy a house....
What was your point? That because of house price inflation you support violenc and vandalism?
If you are a student who graduates with £30,000 of debt, an increased tax burden to pay off the obscene national debt (e.g 20% VAT), and hugely increased house prices thanks to the last 10 years credit boom then it may very well be impossible to buy a house.
The social contract has basically been broken for these people as they will see numerous things denied to them that where available to their parents' generation. I think they are well entitled to protest.
Furthermore in 5 or 10 years time, if these things come to pass, then the rich older generation may well be seen by many as the perpetrators of these injustices and some younger people may seek to hold them to account on a more individual basis.<a>road</a>0 -
Great to see a student movement and politics developing again.0
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the country is so skint that something has to be done and the soon the better.
if it take 5 years to get back to a better position, then be it. even though it will effect alot of people's living standard.
this debt won't go away without us do something about it.
i was an international student and i was paying £9000 a year for my degree. In my home country - Hong Kong, my brother still has to pay around £5000 a year for his degree and the only loan the student can get is from the bank (higher interest). so from what i can see, the UK students have had it easy."It is not impossible, its just improbable"
Specialized Rockhopper Pro Disc 080 -
Rick Chasey wrote:W1 wrote:What was your point? That because of house price inflation you support violenc and vandalism?
The issue with students is nothing to do with the violence.
You get big crowds and there will inevitably be people who are not particularly responsible or law abiding - just like anywhere else in the world.
The issue is the politics that has caused the need to have the large protest in the first place.
There needs to be a discussion on this that goes beyond the interest of the individidual, but instead throw wider thought to the interest of society as a whole, and then consider what is ultimately the best compromise.
Universities are chronically short of money, and there isn't enough tax money right now to pay for it. Yet British universities are one of the UKs greatest assets.
Give over - you sound like some of the "cretins" here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11829102
who claim to have a right tocivil disobedience and that the riot is all the government's fault anyway. Which is, of course, crap - because it's perfectly possible to protest without being violent. And you have a better chance of support when people don't associate your movement with hooliganism.
You've said it yourself - there isn't enough money. So if people want degrees, they have tio pay for thm. But only once they've started earning.0 -
Students !
You mean "Bloody Students !"0 -
Sewinman wrote:Great to see a student movement and politics developing again.
I wondered whether you'd be out with them this time, such was your support last time.
I'm sure the cost of policing the protest and the £1m damage last time will really help the deficit.......
I've never really understood the "student movement" - the least experience people who happen to have the most free time appear to think they have a right to be listened to because they shout the loudest, even if most of what they say is ball-cocks.0 -
WisePranker wrote:
I don't know what your degree is in but going by what you say it's obviously something worthwhile hence the reason you're happy to pay back your fees.
The problem seems to be that too many students seem to think that everyone should pay for their pointless degree in Bosnian Music History or some other such subject and then they can have an easy life for an extra three years before they have to go out and get themselves a job at McDonalds!
or go to be a teacher."It is not impossible, its just improbable"
Specialized Rockhopper Pro Disc 080 -
el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:TheStone wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:
You might change your mind about the same people in 20 years time when you're begging for a pension... :roll:
Students are angry because employers demand degrees, and yet those same employers demand students pay for the priviledge, despite the fact that that said generation screwed the economy and thus the young job prospects. Said generation has laden the country with ridiculous debt, and are now demanding the students who will eventually be tasked with paying off said debt to take on even more debt to try and get the quickly dissapearing jobs. Not cool.
Spot on. Kids are getting screwed. The sooner they wake up and start taking some stuff back the better.
Feel free to give them your house/TV/wages if you feel that strongly about it......
The last 10 years credit boom and exponenential growth of the national debt has severely impacted the younger generations chance of ever getting a house. They might be trying to steal yours in a few years time.
Because in the last 10 years no first time buyer has bought a house?
a) that's not true b) what's your point?
The point is that it's not impossible to buy a house - and there is no housing ladder without people at the bottomw. So you're incorrect - the younger generations have not been "severely impacted" and will have a chance to buy a house....
What was your point? That because of house price inflation you support violenc and vandalism?
If you are a student who graduates with £30,000 of debt, an increased tax burden to pay off the obscene national debt (e.g 20% VAT), and hugely increased house prices thanks to the last 10 years credit boom then it may very well be impossible to buy a house.
The social contract has basically been broken for these people as they will see numerous things denied to them that where available to their parents' generation. I think they are well entitled to protest.
Furthermore in 5 or 10 years time, if these things come to pass, then the rich older generation may well be seen by many as the perpetrators of these injustices and some younger people may seek to hold them to account on a more individual basis.
Which you would support, presuming they don't take your house/stuff/wages....0 -
W1 wrote:el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:TheStone wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:
You might change your mind about the same people in 20 years time when you're begging for a pension... :roll:
Students are angry because employers demand degrees, and yet those same employers demand students pay for the priviledge, despite the fact that that said generation screwed the economy and thus the young job prospects. Said generation has laden the country with ridiculous debt, and are now demanding the students who will eventually be tasked with paying off said debt to take on even more debt to try and get the quickly dissapearing jobs. Not cool.
Spot on. Kids are getting screwed. The sooner they wake up and start taking some stuff back the better.
Feel free to give them your house/TV/wages if you feel that strongly about it......
The last 10 years credit boom and exponenential growth of the national debt has severely impacted the younger generations chance of ever getting a house. They might be trying to steal yours in a few years time.
Because in the last 10 years no first time buyer has bought a house?
a) that's not true b) what's your point?
The point is that it's not impossible to buy a house - and there is no housing ladder without people at the bottomw. So you're incorrect - the younger generations have not been "severely impacted" and will have a chance to buy a house....
What was your point? That because of house price inflation you support violenc and vandalism?
If you are a student who graduates with £30,000 of debt, an increased tax burden to pay off the obscene national debt (e.g 20% VAT), and hugely increased house prices thanks to the last 10 years credit boom then it may very well be impossible to buy a house.
The social contract has basically been broken for these people as they will see numerous things denied to them that where available to their parents' generation. I think they are well entitled to protest.
Furthermore in 5 or 10 years time, if these things come to pass, then the rich older generation may well be seen by many as the perpetrators of these injustices and some younger people may seek to hold them to account on a more individual basis.
Which you would support, presuming they don't take your house/stuff/wages....
I wouldn't support it. Doesn't mean I can't predict the possibility of it happening.<a>road</a>0 -
el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:el_presidente wrote:W1 wrote:TheStone wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:
You might change your mind about the same people in 20 years time when you're begging for a pension... :roll:
Students are angry because employers demand degrees, and yet those same employers demand students pay for the priviledge, despite the fact that that said generation screwed the economy and thus the young job prospects. Said generation has laden the country with ridiculous debt, and are now demanding the students who will eventually be tasked with paying off said debt to take on even more debt to try and get the quickly dissapearing jobs. Not cool.
Spot on. Kids are getting screwed. The sooner they wake up and start taking some stuff back the better.
Feel free to give them your house/TV/wages if you feel that strongly about it......
The last 10 years credit boom and exponenential growth of the national debt has severely impacted the younger generations chance of ever getting a house. They might be trying to steal yours in a few years time.
Because in the last 10 years no first time buyer has bought a house?
a) that's not true b) what's your point?
The point is that it's not impossible to buy a house - and there is no housing ladder without people at the bottomw. So you're incorrect - the younger generations have not been "severely impacted" and will have a chance to buy a house....
What was your point? That because of house price inflation you support violenc and vandalism?
If you are a student who graduates with £30,000 of debt, an increased tax burden to pay off the obscene national debt (e.g 20% VAT), and hugely increased house prices thanks to the last 10 years credit boom then it may very well be impossible to buy a house.
The social contract has basically been broken for these people as they will see numerous things denied to them that where available to their parents' generation. I think they are well entitled to protest.
Furthermore in 5 or 10 years time, if these things come to pass, then the rich older generation may well be seen by many as the perpetrators of these injustices and some younger people may seek to hold them to account on a more individual basis.
Which you would support, presuming they don't take your house/stuff/wages....
I wouldn't support it. Doesn't mean I can't predict the possibility of it happening.
You said above "The sooner they wake up and start taking some stuff back the better.". I know this is a cycling forum, but that's rapid back pedalling.0 -
I said "they are well entitled to protest" don't make up quotes please<a>road</a>0
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W1 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:W1 wrote:What was your point? That because of house price inflation you support violenc and vandalism?
The issue with students is nothing to do with the violence.
You get big crowds and there will inevitably be people who are not particularly responsible or law abiding - just like anywhere else in the world.
The issue is the politics that has caused the need to have the large protest in the first place.
There needs to be a discussion on this that goes beyond the interest of the individidual, but instead throw wider thought to the interest of society as a whole, and then consider what is ultimately the best compromise.
Universities are chronically short of money, and there isn't enough tax money right now to pay for it. Yet British universities are one of the UKs greatest assets.
Give over - you sound like some of the "cretins" here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11829102
who claim to have a right tocivil disobedience and that the riot is all the government's fault anyway. Which is, of course, crap - because it's perfectly possible to protest without being violent. And you have a better chance of support when people don't associate your movement with hooliganism.
You've said it yourself - there isn't enough money. So if people want degrees, they have tio pay for thm. But only once they've started earning.
You’ve got what I’ve said completely wrong.
I am saying the issue of student debt and the funding of students is a totally separate problem to said civil disobedience. I am saying that to lump the issues together, especially given that civil disobedience is not remotely exclusive to students, indeed it happens on a regular basis, such as at football matches, is disingenuous.
You have no idea how representative of students or not the people committing the violence are. I’d suggest, like in any situation, they are a very small minority who get excessive coverage.
I am not an apologist for violence – I am suggesting that the violence is not the issue.0 -
el_presidente wrote:I said "they are well entitled to protest" don't make up quotes please
Apologies, my mistake - I presumed you were The Stone (whom I'd replied to).0 -
Just to throw in a different view (without opening up the issues of the protests).
A million people turn up to protest against a war and the countryside alliance get 200,000 or more out to protest and all get ignored as they stick to the rules. A few poll tax rioters cause mayhem in a few locations and refuse to deal with the courts and an entire tax gets dropped.
Is there a point at which making politicans very frightened is better than writing letters?0 -
W1 wrote:el_presidente wrote:I said "they are well entitled to protest" don't make up quotes please
Apologies, my mistake - I presumed you were The Stone (whom I'd replied to).
Yep, my comment: "The sooner they wake up and start taking some stuff back the better"
My point is that if they can start reversing some things now, there's a chance it could all unwind in a peaceful manner. If we keep taking from them or forcing them into more debt (govt, student etc) then there could be a point when it turns nasty. Given a choice between paying for their own health and their children's schooling or paying for the pensions and the debt of the generation who will be seen to have stolen everything, they might decide the former is more important.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:W1 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:W1 wrote:What was your point? That because of house price inflation you support violenc and vandalism?
The issue with students is nothing to do with the violence.
You get big crowds and there will inevitably be people who are not particularly responsible or law abiding - just like anywhere else in the world.
The issue is the politics that has caused the need to have the large protest in the first place.
There needs to be a discussion on this that goes beyond the interest of the individidual, but instead throw wider thought to the interest of society as a whole, and then consider what is ultimately the best compromise.
Universities are chronically short of money, and there isn't enough tax money right now to pay for it. Yet British universities are one of the UKs greatest assets.
Give over - you sound like some of the "cretins" here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11829102
who claim to have a right tocivil disobedience and that the riot is all the government's fault anyway. Which is, of course, crap - because it's perfectly possible to protest without being violent. And you have a better chance of support when people don't associate your movement with hooliganism.
You've said it yourself - there isn't enough money. So if people want degrees, they have tio pay for thm. But only once they've started earning.
You’ve got what I’ve said completely wrong.
I am saying the issue of student debt and the funding of students is a totally separate problem to said civil disobedience. I am saying that to lump the issues together, especially given that civil disobedience is not remotely exclusive to students, indeed it happens on a regular basis, such as at football matches, is disingenuous.
You have no idea how representative of students or not the people committing the violence are. I’d suggest, like in any situation, they are a very small minority who get excessive coverage.
I am not an apologist for violence – I am suggesting that the violence is not the issue.
Sadly it is now the issue - and having dubious "student bodies" and lecturers supporting it means that any legitimate protest is dorwned out by the short-sighted idiots.0 -
A copper has had his arm broken according to Sky News.
Sadly for those people out to protest legitimately and peacefully, their protest has again been hijacked. The idiots will get all the headlines, and the students will suffer a backlash from some for the actions of a few.0 -
davmaggs wrote:Just to throw in a different view (without opening up the issues of the protests).
A million people turn up to protest against a war and the countryside alliance get 200,000 or more out to protest and all get ignored as they stick to the rules. A few poll tax rioters cause mayhem in a few locations and refuse to deal with the courts and an entire tax gets dropped.
Is there a point at which making politicans very frightened is better than writing letters?
Interesting point I think. Not sure I agree with it. My impression is that if there is violence at a protest that its easier to sideline the reasons for the protest in the first place. I would suggest that the Poll Tax got dropped because far more people cared about it than the Iraq War or Fox Hunting.
I suppose the real purpose of a protest is to raise the profile of an issue so it is more widely understood, with the aim that more of the population will empathise with that view. In that respect I reckon the recent student protests have failed. Which is a shame.0
