Students
Comments
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Rick Chasey wrote:lost_in_thought wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:When people are talking about the actual debt they have to pay off early, they're forgetting the elephant in the room - Student Loans Company.
Even the Wiki article mentions their incompetance.
No words can describe the rage that their kafka-esq incompetance brings out in me.
I've heard many a horror story, but they were absolutely great with me!
Uni was probably cheaper for you that the Leys wasn't it? Surprised you needed a loan. :twisted:
Your chips appear to be blinding your judgement.0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:lost_in_thought wrote:ORLY
I stand by everything I've said. It's not your background I take an issue with or what life has afforded you.
It is that you take that perspective and seemingly apply it to everyone without ever considering that the constraints on their life are different to your own.
I question how much you really do try to relate or understand lives that are different to your's or mine as you make sweeping statements after sweeping social/society based statement. "State schools that don't offer swimming and not being able" for example.
Take for example your statement "You don't need to go to Uni, I didn't and I turend out all right". Well you did but that won't be the same for everyone. For various reasons.
This isn't a attack on your background (I'm looking at public school costs for my own) but on your seemingly unwillingness to accept that there are those with lives and constraints different to your own and who will come up to different obsticles you faced.
You must be reading posts by a different LiT than me then.0 -
W1 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:lost_in_thought wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:When people are talking about the actual debt they have to pay off early, they're forgetting the elephant in the room - Student Loans Company.
Even the Wiki article mentions their incompetance.
No words can describe the rage that their kafka-esq incompetance brings out in me.
I've heard many a horror story, but they were absolutely great with me!
Uni was probably cheaper for you that the Leys wasn't it? Surprised you needed a loan. :twisted:
Your chips appear to be blinding your judgement.
Not really - I happen to know a bit about the Leys, given that I grew up in the same town and know people who went there... It's just a bit of banter
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W1 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:lost_in_thought wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:When people are talking about the actual debt they have to pay off early, they're forgetting the elephant in the room - Student Loans Company.
Even the Wiki article mentions their incompetance.
No words can describe the rage that their kafka-esq incompetance brings out in me.
I've heard many a horror story, but they were absolutely great with me!
Uni was probably cheaper for you that the Leys wasn't it? Surprised you needed a loan. :twisted:
Your chips appear to be blinding your judgement.
It's the salt that does it.
Actually, if, as I suspect, he went to the Perse, or knows people who did, he's just playing on old inter-school rivalries. Basically, the Perse sucked at sports and were generally lily-livered wusses who bleated about how the Leys had bigger fees and could afford better hockey sticks. Or some such nonsense.
:twisted:0 -
gtvlusso wrote:
Epic FAIL:
Went to State School - in Worcestershire
Accepted to Cambridge - failed (expelled)
Accepted to Reading - failed (walked off)
Accepted to Rutgers - failed (suspended pending investigation - walked off)
In the Interview you sit down and they go through you're educational background.
"OK, so you went to *public/state school/6th form and got a... wow look at the grades"
"But you didn't finish Uni why?"
"Well I passed the entrance exam at *top reknowned Uni but found it wasn't for me"
In their mind they are now talking to a graduate calibre candidate who went to a Uni which is harder to get into than some are to actually finish. You didn't finish but you had the brains to go. This I suspect puts you a rung above those that didn't even bother to try and just went straight out at 18 looking for work.
I could however be wrong.
I probably wasn't even born when you went to Uni...Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:When people are talking about the actual debt they have to pay off early, they're forgetting the elephant in the room - Student Loans Company.
Even the Wiki article mentions their incompetance.
No words can describe the rage that their kafka-esq incompetance brings out in me.
+1 - it took me 6 months to convince them I'd paid off my loan - all they could say was "We not sure because the tax man hasn't told us what he's deducted, so until they do we can't tell them to stop collecting off you, and when we do tell them they'll then have to send us more information on deductions and we'll owe you even more money - but no we don't give you interest".0 -
gtvlusso wrote:
Epic FAIL:
Went to State School - in Worcestershire
Accepted to Cambridge - failed (expelled)
Accepted to Reading - failed (walked off)
Accepted to Rutgers - failed (suspended pending investigation - walked off)DonDaddyD wrote:In the Interview you sit down and they go through you're educational background.
Yup - and you are assessed as a job interview - good job my dad was in HR!DonDaddyD wrote:"OK, so you went to *public/state school/6th form and got a... wow look at the grades"
"But you didn't finish Uni why?"
Did not know why I was going! Only one from my entire school that year accepted to Oxbridge, everyone else went to jobs or some other Uni's. I did not know what I really wanted to do at that age - I was too young for a life changing decision - got drunk and into trouble blah blah blah...expelled....from several Uni's. Wasting allot of money and time in the end.
I would have been better having a year out working or a Poly Technic education offered to me - give me time to think about what I wanted from life and what I had to give.
Friends went to Ex-Poly's/Unis and got some fairly average degrees.....allot went into Police, Army etc etc etc....Pointless really, they may as well have gone into those jobs from 16.DonDaddyD wrote:I probably wasn't even born when you went to Uni...
Yeah- that's probably true....I still like you though :-)0 -
JZed wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:When people are talking about the actual debt they have to pay off early, they're forgetting the elephant in the room - Student Loans Company.
Even the Wiki article mentions their incompetance.
No words can describe the rage that their kafka-esq incompetance brings out in me.
+1 - it took me 6 months to convince them I'd paid off my loan - all they could say was "We not sure because the tax man hasn't told us what he's deducted, so until they do we can't tell them to stop collecting off you, and when we do tell them they'll then have to send us more information on deductions and we'll owe you even more money - but no we don't give you interest".
I was lucky in that my loan was in the days before they could touch your salary directly and I would pay by DD. I think a lot of people just 'disappeared', so they stopped it.0 -
lost_in_thought wrote:more that it's an option that should be considered and I'm an example of how it can work.
Yes but by the simple fact that you had exceptional schooling and actually went to a top Uni (but didn't finish) the circumstances that contributed to 'it' working for you will not be the case for many. This isn't an attack on your background but acknowledging the difference.
So while you are an example of it working, you really are the exception not the norm.
Do you accept that?Furthermore, I couldn't believe any parent would choose not to have their child learn to swim.
For some the decision is not a choice.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
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Rick Chasey wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:Yes but by the simple fact that you had exceptional schooling and actually went to a top Uni (but didn't finish) .
Wouldn't go that far 0 -
gtvlusso wrote:
Did not know why I was going! Only one from my entire school that year accepted to Oxbridge, everyone else went to jobs or some other Uni's. I did not know what I really wanted to do at that age - I was too young for a life changing decision - got drunk and into trouble blah blah blah...expelled....from several Uni's. Wasting allot of money and time in the end.
I would have been better having a year out working or a Poly Technic education offered to me - give me time to think about what I wanted from life and what I had to give.
Friends went to Ex-Poly's/Unis and got some fairly average degrees.....allot went into Police, Army etc etc etc....Pointless really, they may as well have gone into those jobs from 16.
I can dig that. I don't have any friends who went and are worse off for it. I do have friends that would be really better off had they went.
To be honest though, I think in the time you went the Country has now had a shift towards needing a degree. I don't think everyone should have a degree, there are a lot lost skilled workers and that is a detriment to the Country (honest work builders, sparky etc).
I just think everyone should have the opportunity and not be priced out. For some less fortunate just the experience of going (even if they fail) can change their lives so dramatically. When I here of 18 yr old mothers getting degree's and becoming counsellors (for example). I cannot abide these increases which puts more strain on those who want to aspire in things where a degree for them is the only real way out and up.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:lost_in_thought wrote:more that it's an option that should be considered and I'm an example of how it can work.
Yes but by the simple fact that you had exceptional schooling and actually went to a top Uni (but didn't finish) the circumstances that contributed to 'it' working for you will not be the case for many. This isn't an attack on your background but acknowledging the difference.
So while you are an example of it working, you really are the exception not the norm.
Do you accept that?Furthermore, I couldn't believe any parent would choose not to have their child learn to swim.
For some the decision is not a choice.
I am with LiT on this one dude.
You make your own luck. I am totally state educated in an area that had little more than cows and hedges - yet I got into Cambridge.
They are not just looking for your educational background, they are looking at you as an adult.....How you are, how you react and will you make a difference - what can you offer? Ultimately - the Uni wants credi for your education if you become a great doctor, poet, physicist or write books and become an expceptional success in society. benefits them financially! As does any great research you do while you are there....The great institutions take as much from you as they give you.....
And my education was not donw to privelage.
However, they probably could not see that I was gonna be a drunkard and just spend my time rowing!0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:I just think everyone should have the opportunity and not be priced out. For some less fortunate just the experience of going (even if they fail) can change their lives so dramatically. When I here of 18 yr old mothers getting degree's and becoming counsellors (for example). I cannot abide these increases which puts more strain on those who want to aspire in things where a degree for them is the only real way out and up.
Who is priced out when you pay afterwards and only then when you reach an relatively generous earning threshold (bearing in mind the average wage is around £24k)? How can you be priced out of something which you don't have to stump up for until you can afford it?
And the poorest won't have to pay at all.
Everyone does have the opportunity - and if the fees are at the £6k level that is likely to be average (rather than the £9k max) that's not so different to now. It's just that uni isn't right for everyone, and to encourage such numbers of people to go to do mickey mouse degrees merely (a) increases the costs and (b) increase the debt burden, for very little benefit. Or maybe they should make degrees only two years rather than three?0 -
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gtvlusso wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:lost_in_thought wrote:more that it's an option that should be considered and I'm an example of how it can work.
Yes but by the simple fact that you had exceptional schooling and actually went to a top Uni (but didn't finish) the circumstances that contributed to 'it' working for you will not be the case for many. This isn't an attack on your background but acknowledging the difference.
So while you are an example of it working, you really are the exception not the norm.
Do you accept that?Furthermore, I couldn't believe any parent would choose not to have their child learn to swim.
For some the decision is not a choice.
I am with LiT on this one dude.
You make your own luck. I am totally state educated in an area that had little more than cows and hedges - yet I got into Cambridge.
They are not just looking for your educational background, they are looking at you as an adult.....How you are, how you react and will you make a difference - what can you offer? Ultimately - the Uni wants credi for your education if you become a great doctor, poet, physicist or write books and become an expceptional success in society. benefits them financially! As does any great research you do while you are there....The great institutions take as much from you as they give you.....
And my education was not donw to privelage.
However, they probably could not see that I was gonna be a drunkard and just spend my time rowing!
Yes - and it did not improve my typing or grammar...../Fail.
However, this is what I think:
Some public schools have strong ties with the great Uni's - we know this and I disagree wholly with it. But those schools are often as old as the Uni's are - so I can understand the history and why they are so linked.
My secondary modern was built in the 1950's....no tie ins with Uni's and this is in a rural area with nothing around it - neares uni was in Brimingham. Nearest Poly was in Worcester (now Uni of Worcester for some bizarre reason!)
I worked my nuts off at 6th form to get 5 A levels and had the "personality" required by a great Uni. I was very lucky.....
This is not privelage - this is being "bright" and good in an interview. The Uni is assessing what you can do for it....0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:LiT - Did you consider Hills Road for 6th form?
Nope! I wanted to stay at the Leys, it's a much better place to learn than Hills, and I couldn't board at Hills either.0 -
There is speculation the police van was a set-up.. an old out of date model.. no reg. plates.
Train cameras on van, get the violent ones.
Note the poppies at the Cenotaph weren't touched.0 -
gtvlusso wrote:
I am with LiT on this one dude.
You make your own luck. I am totally state educated in an area that had little more than cows and hedges - yet I got into Cambridge.
Of course you make your own luck. There are factors that contribute to that luck.
Here is a report on my school: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/e ... 6_4602.stm
Here's its webpage, http://www.lgfl.net/lgfl/leas/croydon/s ... nley-tech/
It closed down in 2007. I cannot begin to explain the influences around me, which defined me and many others as adults. So while, yes, you make your own luck there are contributing factors.
So I come back the circumstances that contributed to 'it' working for me really didn't for many others. And in my case, considering the outcome of many from my school I am very much the exception not the norm.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
W1 wrote:Everyone does have the opportunity - and if the fees are at the £6k level that is likely to be average (rather than the £9k max) that's not so different to now. It's just that uni isn't right for everyone, and to encourage such numbers of people to go to do mickey mouse degrees merely (a) increases the costs and (b) increase the debt burden, for very little benefit. Or maybe they should make degrees only two years rather than three?
We don't like each other, so its almost compulsory that we disagree and then go all keyboard warrior on each other.
BUT I can dig a couple of things written here.
Making it only two years - the first year doesn't count, its like a tester to see if you like it.
£6k is still double what it costs, but making it 2years long - maybe even shorter holidays would soften maybe even sweeten the blow.
I don't agree with encouraging everyone to go but I think everyone should no that it is a viable and afforable option. The way it is being presented now is that it isn't, consider that when I was going I had a friend who said he wouldn't because of the cost (didn't want to get hit with £20,000-£30,000 debt and I don't enjoy the £200 - £300 pound they take from me each month).Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:gtvlusso wrote:
I am with LiT on this one dude.
You make your own luck. I am totally state educated in an area that had little more than cows and hedges - yet I got into Cambridge.
Of course you make your own luck. There are factors that contribute to that luck.
Here is a report on my school: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/e ... 6_4602.stm
Here's its webpage, http://www.lgfl.net/lgfl/leas/croydon/s ... nley-tech/
It closed down in 2007. I cannot begin to explain the influences around me, which defined me and many others as adults. So while, yes, you make your own luck there are contributing factors.
So I come back the circumstances that contributed to 'it' working for me really didn't for many others. And in my case, considering the outcome of many from my school I am very much the exception not the norm.
yes - I agree - Peer groups are an influence....maybe why I wanted to just do what they were doing as opposed to being sent to Cambridge.....
So, I guess it can work both ways!0 -
Despite your example, students from independent schools are disproportionately represented at universities in general, and particularly at the top establishments. This would suggest that independent schools are helping their students attain better A level results (the primary hurdle in getting a place at university) as well as develop their non-academic skills to enable them to impress at an interview, to a greater extent than state schools.
So, as a general trend, private education does seem to offer an advantage, even if individual experiences vary.
BTW, I was state educated as well. I was just one of the bright ones, although my experience was that good A level results don't directly translate into academic performance at degree level. It's a shame A level results appear to be given so much more weight than interviews - I didn't even have an interview.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:gtvlusso wrote:
Epic FAIL:
Went to State School - in Worcestershire
Accepted to Cambridge - failed (expelled)
Accepted to Reading - failed (walked off)
Accepted to Rutgers - failed (suspended pending investigation - walked off)
In the Interview you sit down and they go through you're educational background.
...
Let's stop there, how about employer took one look at CV and as you didn't get a degree and other candidates did, you go to the bottom of pile no interview no chance to explain. That's the problem with current system and a 50% target for university, if you don't go to university and don't get a degree; at best you're at a disadvantage at worst you’re on your own.
There should be a focus on giving people an opportunity to succeed that does not require university or to prove themselves academically. I'd happily pay for that through the tax scheme. For starters I know several people, myself included, who failed or simply didn’t go to university who are some of the best IT people I know, for multiple reasons but mainly because they can think outside of the box without the restriction of the theory learnt at university but more importantly because they do much better in a real world situation rather than simulated or theoretical environment that has no practical relevance to them.
It would be good to give students the opportunity to enter employment early to learn from the ground up without having to go to university but still allowing them to get a University equivalent degree at the same time, it could even be funded by the employer therefore the student would not need to get into debt as they would be being paid at the same time.--
Chris
Genesis Equilibrium - FCN 3/4/50 -
mapleflot wrote:There is speculation the police van was a set-up.. an old out of date model.. no reg. plates.
Train cameras on van, get the violent ones.
Note the poppies at the Cenotaph weren't touched.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/vid ... -turn-ugly
53 sec in you can see the number plate.--
Chris
Genesis Equilibrium - FCN 3/4/50 -
Sketchley,
"It would be good to give students the opportunity to enter employment early to learn from the ground up without having to go to university but still allowing them to get a University equivalent degree at the same time, it could even be funded by the employer therefore the student would not need to get into debt as they would be being paid at the same time."
How would you propose the Employer pays for the students degree? Assuming the employer does pay, hhat sort of lock up period post degree would you propose?0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:I'd say that using someone's talents, even if it means earning less cash is more value than someone ignoring that talent..
I'm fine with that - use your talents anyway you want - however - no-one has a right to be trained to use their talents. I'd like to be a Dolphin trainer for example - looks like blast, can I have 25K please?Furthermore,as I've said before, you're confining subjects like the arts and humanties to luxuries for the rich. .
Like Polo? Fine. If you have to be loaded to waste your time studying something that isn't worth the money then knock yourself out. Should we also make Polo a mass participation sport?There's more to life then making cash, and there is more value to add to society then just making cash.
There is more to life than money - yes
Value to society - you can't put a price on it - but you need money to fund it - that's the problem.Fixed gear for wet weather / hairy roadie for posing in the sun.
What would Thora Hurd do?0 -
@feltkuota
Good question. First I'm not suggesting that the employer pays for the student to go to university as you rightly suggest that would lead to long lock in period post degree so employer can get money back, this kind of happens now through scholarships but they are not that common.
What I'm suggesting is someway of evaluating an extended employment placement and issuing a degree as an alternative to university. My suggestion being the employer pays for the continuous assessment of progress and final certification which they can off set against cost of training that they would normally pay for anyway. The employer will benefit from having a full time employee during this period so no need for a lock in, at the end of the period they would have a graduate level employee already experienced in the company. There should be no need for lock in at this point the employee should be worth the money.--
Chris
Genesis Equilibrium - FCN 3/4/50 -
Some pretty witty signs on show in the pics. My favourite so far is 'RICH PARENTS FOR ALL!"0
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gtvlusso wrote:gtvlusso wrote:Okay - Here's My pennys worth:
I am a "FAILED" student.....
I studied at Cambridge, Reading Uni and Rutgers (In the USA). I do not have a degree because I was a drunken dopehead......
I wasted allot of time and money (your money and my money) to acheive b*ll*x all. I was too young and did not know what I wanted.
I studied English Literature, Fine Art and Journalism/Law. After coming back from the States, I worked as a cabling guy on a building site, then became a computer engineer and it snowballed into a career in IT/Telecoms.....
My Last job was looking over around 400 UK staff as a "Head of".....I now look over about 40 staff internationally as a "Head of" - new/better job!!
I only have 'A' levels....
For some people University comes around too quickly and they have a bit of growing up and self learning to do - me!. For some people academia is simply beyond them and they should not be pushed down the Uni route - the annihilation of the old Poly Technics was a travesty.....I see that now when I recruit "students"...we have non students who simply are better candidates and more motivated.....
I have friends that went to less well known Uni's and got rubbish degrees in b*gger all.....they are still doing okay. Allot of them joined the Police! But, they would probably have been better off going to a Poly and learning a skill or simply going straight to work.
Uni is not right for everyone! However, the previous government pushed us into this mess.
On Fee's:
I believe that the fees are only payable when you are employed and earning over certain limits. Whats wrong with that? Surely it stops f*ckwits like me attempting Uni, failing miserably, and costing you tax payers a fortune?! Then deciding on a complete change of direction.....
Hopefully it also stops these b*ll*x degrees from second rate Universities.
I would like to think that when kids leave school, they now really look closely at what they want to do and the financial impact of it on society - i.e. fees raises that awareness. To be honest, I am now saving frantically for schooling and Uni - I know my kids will need the cash then. I hope that they take the time (even a year or so out) to find out who they are and where they want to go - make an informed choice and bear in mind their imprint or impact on society.
Yes - the fees hike was too much too soon. It should have been in stages to lessen the impact (look at fuel price hikes as an example of acceptance).
In a very very selfish way - I hope that by paying for my kids Uni education I am making up for my Uni waste.....Not sure though!?!
Quoting myself is incredibly vain, but:
I went for an IT/Telecoms Consultant job at Price Waterhouse Coopers a few years ago - I was a Consultant Engineer at the time. I did not get the job as I don't have a degree. However, my friend got the job with PWC as an IT Consultant - he has a degree in Geology and a degree in civil engineering.
A week later he is phoning me and asking technical questions about the job he got and I did not get!!! He even had to ask me about logging onto his own laptop....I spent 6 months supporting him in his role, before he binned it and joined the Police.
A degree shows the ability to self manage, research and project manage. It also give some specialism into a subject that you like. It does not mean that you will follow a career path or like what you end up doing. So, why should I foot the bill for people who may not end up happy themselves or fulfill any role they are educated for....?
very Daily Fail - apologies! But I would rather people assessed what they wanted to do and realised the financial implication on society. make people choose what is right for them.
A degree does not mean that you are any good as an employee!
@Sketchley - hope the above ties in with your comments....0 -
Sketchley,
What you have just suggested, if I'm reading this correctly, is for the employer to effectively pay for it's employees degree then, once the degree is acheived, the employee is free to take their employer paid for experience and degree elsewhere. That seems less than ideal for the employer.0
