the Cyclo cross racing post

bendertherobot

VamP wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

Not a hugely wet week in prospect. Abergavenny looks to be dry-ish. But there will be some rain. So it might end up sticky. Showery on Saturday and Sunday. But the main feature is the wind. Do you like wind?

I have learned that weather cares little for forecasts, but where are you looking? The one in front of me has rain Wednesday through Saturday...

There are two places to look. The first should always be the model discussion forum on net weather.tv. Helps with trends.

As for weeks, use the models. Much better. See here:

http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/cgi-bin/ ... mp;PERIOD=

Click on the accumulated precipitation chart and then run through the days. 13mm or so from today to Sunday in Abergavenny. Not much.

andyp

VamP wrote:

A mountain to climb to get two working bikes in time for Abergavenny!

Shout if you need anything to borrow.

andyp

I raced at Bethlem in the London League yesterday. Dulwich Paragon did an excellent job in using what the venue has to offer to put together a really challenging course. It was very wet, as you'd expect, but all of the course was rideable bar the log hurdles and the downhill 180 turn into a steep uphill.

Despite being called up after Frans Jacques (!) I got a front row spot and got an okay start, and was in contact with the top ten as we started the second lap and, in a show of strength that surprised me, managed to end the lap in 5th place, which I then held for the next couple of laps. Unfortunately I got held up when someone crashed in front of me before we entered the field for the bell lap, and that allowed Russ Jones to close the gap enough to be on my wheel as we took the bell. He then chose a better line through the Field of Doom on the final lap and opened up enough of a gap that I couldn't quite get back to him, so I took 6th place, 2 seconds behind him. Given the quality of the field I was very happy with that.

FransJacques

Well done for slogging through that. Having seen it in the summer series I was tempted to come down on Sunday.

Bizarre that they're calling me out - maybe my brief appearance at the HH Madison race put me back on a list someplace...

I heard there were several flats at the bottom of the short, sharp downhill. Was the ground treacherous or did people bottom out on a dip?

Hope to see you gents slaloming in the trees at Wilmington school in a couple weeks hence.

On_What

Was there a good line through the field of doom?! I tried left, right and middle but I didn't have the power to hold the pace I set on the first few laps

andyp

FransJacques wrote:

Well done for slogging through that. Having seen it in the summer series I was tempted to come down on Sunday.

Bizarre that they're calling me out - maybe my brief appearance at the HH Madison race put me back on a list someplace...

I heard there were several flats at the bottom of the short, sharp downhill. Was the ground treacherous or did people bottom out on a dip?

Hope to see you gents slaloming in the trees at Wilmington school in a couple weeks hence.

Sadly the Wilmington School round has been cancelled, there's a cross country race being held there on the Saturday and the organisers won't be able to access the site until Sunday morning.

I marshalled the summer series round my club hosted at Bethlem back in 2013 and was on that corner at the bottom of the sharp downhill. I counted 9 punctures during that race, and had a dig around after the last rider came through and pulled out a metre long piece of metal buried in the ground. I imagine there is more in there still. If there's a working party ahead of the summer series this year I'll try and source a metal detector for it.

The gridding is done on the average of your best three results, so given you've ridden just two London League rounds this year, I'm not sure how you're getting called up ahead of some of us who're in the top ten overall. I suspect money has changed hands.

andyp

On_What wrote:

Was there a good line through the field of doom?! I tried left, right and middle but I didn't have the power to hold the pace I set on the first few laps

I consistently went left and could keep a decent enough pace, Russ went right on the last lap and easily put 50 metres into me so I wish I'd gone right all race now.

tgotb

Great ride, well done! I was there and really looking forward to it, but had to head home early with a frozen daughter (she's normally really good about hanging around at races, so I have to cut her a bit of slack sometimes).

Gridding seems to be an eternal mystery; I don't think I've ever raced in a league where the gridding consistently made sense (though I guess it all evens out in the long run).

VamP

andyp wrote:

VamP wrote:

A mountain to climb to get two working bikes in time for Abergavenny!

Shout if you need anything to borrow.

That's an unbelievably generous and extremely foolhardy offer Andy! Luckily my wheelbuilder has come good and promises fixed wheel by Thursday. In the meantime, my amazing clubmates have sourced me a set of FMB shod Reynolds I can borrow for the weekend as well as a set of Major Toms with Tufos. Inn the meantime, I have excavated a decent Rhino from the pile of knackered rubber in my garage, and that's going to complete a another set.

So looking all much rosier now

VamP

TGOTB wrote:

Great ride, well done! I was there and really looking forward to it, but had to head home early with a frozen daughter (she's normally really good about hanging around at races, so I have to cut her a bit of slack sometimes).

Gridding seems to be an eternal mystery; I don't think I've ever raced in a league where the gridding consistently made sense (though I guess it all evens out in the long run).

Eastern League is impeccable in this regard. Riders always gridded on average of last three races, and we always give visiting riders a good slot. Nationally ranked riders usually get front row, in some contrast to Central where there were three of us sat at the very back on Saturday At least with London, you can usually snag third or fourth row just by being in the right place.

Did I mention same day results every time?

TiRed

Rode the Welwyn Vets CX race with sheep, my clubmate. My second ever CX race. On the frankencross bike#- Singlespeed (54"), steel mtb with 26" wheels and hydraulic disks with Schwalbe CX Pro tubeless at 20 PSI. RIgid carbon fork (700c actually) with 3" of mud clearance, unconventional Soma Sparrow bars (for leverage when climbing). Was gridded third row on account of a 19th place in the Hillingdon round.

https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos ... e=5528371F

A good start, missed the crash, held position OK because the mud limited the out-and-out speed (I spin out at 17 mph). But two weeks off the bike with a cold and chest infection meant there was never much power. Was passed by a few people and settled to somewhere mid-pack where I held off a Kingston Wheeler who I passed on Lap 4.

Comments on SS; well I ride a lot of fixed wheel road and SS mountain bike (including racing). I only ran the parts of the course others did, the long back drag I rode twice and ran twice. The gear was a little too high for that incline, which means that the usual stand and honk just results in wheelspin. Sitting meant the gear was a little too hard. Gear was also too low for the non-muddy back straight at the top of the course. I'd say that if you are happy with mid-pack then SS will suffice. Top 10 will need gears. My bike isn't pretty, but it will finish in ANY conditions! (and I can't justify a dedicated cross bike). I'm happy with targetting top third in any race, everything else is a bonus. I also noted that the first lap kills, but by the fourth, I'm ready for two more. Maybe I should try seniors.

EDIT: #bike is lighter than you might think. Sub 10 kilos for a steel frame, Stans Crests on hope hubs, carbon seatpost and forks, alloy bars, wire beaded but tubeless tyres (only 26" I could find). Certainly lighter than the stock Giant TCX I compared it to. It shed 1.3 kilos between Hillingdon and Welwn on account of the fork swap. I can't shoulder it though as there are gear cable braze ons and of course the small triangle. I could also run it 8 speed geared with the Alfine hubbed wheel it orginally came with - that might be a plan for the last round!

ugo.santalucia

TiRed wrote:

Comments on SS; well I ride a lot of fixed wheel road and SS mountain bike (including racing). I only ran the parts of the course others did, the long back drag I rode twice and ran twice. The gear was a little too high for that incline, which means that the usual stand and honk just results in wheelspin. Sitting meant the gear was a little too hard. Gear was also too low for the non-muddy back straight at the top of the course. I'd say that if you are happy with mid-pack then SS will suffice. Top 10 will need gears. My bike isn't pretty, but it will finish in ANY conditions! (and I can't justify a dedicated cross bike). I'm happy with targetting top third in any race, everything else is a bonus. I also noted that the first lap kills, but by the fourth, I'm ready for two more. Maybe I should try seniors.

A breath of fresh air, finally...

Moonbiker

ss would of being not very goods for the course of my last race as it had a tarmac go cart curciut as part of it, also slow hills/ & fast downhills. would be good for the muddy flat race courses though.

http://nwcycloxgroup.ning.com/profiles/ ... 4-15-rd-10

ugo.santalucia

Moonbiker wrote:

ss would have being not very goods for the course of my last race as it had a tarmac go cart curciut as part of it, also slow hills/ & fast downhills. would be good for the muddy flat race courses though.

http://nwcycloxgroup.ning.com/profiles/ ... 4-15-rd-10

I used to follow a blog of a US guy who only raced SS: his point was the same as above: you will be at a disadvantage on some courses, but you will finish and you won't have a big bill after every other race. Having snapped my RD last week on a particularly boggy ride in the Chilterns when something got caught and faced a 52 quid replacement, it makes perfect sense to me to run SS when the course is particularly muddy. If you are competitive and aim for top ten, get the best equipment and pay for the repairs, if you are there to have a good time and an hour of intense action, get something functional... at the end of the day finishing 20th or 32nd won't change the world.
Having seen folks spending 30 seconds trying to clip in after a run at Hillingdon, I would add on some courses flat pedals aren't a bad idea either.
When I briefly considered racing, I practiced a few dismounts and inevitably got trapped in the SPD and twisted my ankle... it reminds me that after 6 months this is the first week that it actually no longer hurts! I did then consider flat pedals and fell running shoes... not sure if it is a good combination, but it seemed to me to make more sense than trying to run on cycling shoes and struggling to clip in...

andyp

You quickly learn that you only race on kit you can afford to replace. This is especially true for rear derailleurs. Shimano 105 rear mechs are readily available for less than £30.

I can't remember the last time I had issues with clipping in, I've had none at all the past two years when it's been muddy for most of the season. There's loads of little tricks you can employ to keep the cleats clear.

I'm tempted to race singlespeed but the Pompino I have is no use as a) it's an older version with poor mud clearance and b) the rear spacing is 120 mm which means I can't just use existing rear wheels with a conversion kit.

However, for the majority of London League races you need a spread of gears to be competitive. Hog Hill, PORC, Falmer, Footscray, Bethlem, Wilmington School, Frylands Wood and even Gunpowder Park have enough changes in gradient to make having gears an advantage. The only regular circuit that you could get away with it is Herne Hill.

ugo.santalucia

andyp wrote:

I can't remember the last time I had issues with clipping in, I've had none at all the past two years when it's been muddy for most of the season. There's loads of little tricks you can employ to keep the cleats clear.

I'm tempted to race singlespeed but the Pompino I have is no use as a) it's an older version with poor mud clearance and b) the rear spacing is 120 mm which means I can't just use existing rear wheels with a conversion kit.

My Shimano shoes clog easily... maybe shoes with a bit more distance between the cleat and the "knobbles"?

Maybe having a wheel made on a 650b rim? This way you should have clearance to fit a knobbly tyre... as long as it's not a 2 inch tyre, it will fit... whether you will find a MTB tyre of less than 2 inch is another story...

EDIT: that would only work with disc brakes though... :roll:

bendertherobot

I had serious issues on the last course with clogging up. Couldn't get either foot in on an uphill. I honestly wish I'd had flats that day. And some stiff approach type shoes.

andyp

ugo.santalucia wrote:

My Shimano shoes clog easily... maybe shoes with a bit more distance between the cleat and the "knobbles"?

On most shoes you can cut away some of the "knobbles" either side of the cleat to create more space and prevent mud building up in the gap between the tread and the cleat.

There was a how-to published by cxmagazine.com a few years ago, but for the life of me I can't find it now they've migrated their content to a new site. I did it with a pair of Sidi Dominators and it stopped the issues I had with re-engaging overnight.

tgotb

I switched from SPD to Time ATACs this year, which improved the clogging issue. TBH it's more of an issue in training (where you might do 20 or 30 run-ups in a session) than racing (where you'll likely do less than 10). The only time I've had issues racing this season was on the Milton Keynes WC course, but that ended up with 4 run-ups per lap (more if you didn't nail some of the "rideable" climbs) and the steps on the final one were infilled with just the right grade of aggregate to clog your cleats.

If anything, Central League courses need gears even more than many London ones. Milton Keynes (2 races) and Culham Park are all about power climbs; Halton had a very steep power climb and also a very fast gentle descent (guessing 25mph) on hard grass. One of the Luton courses was dead flat and would probably have been fine on SS if you were fluid round the corners; the other Luton course had plenty of gradient. A lot of Hillingdon might possibly have been OK if you were good at holding your momentum, but you'd have been crucified on the tarmac start straight (we hit 30mph off the start at Hillingdon last season).

Ironically, on a really flat course a less-experienced rider might actually get more benefit from gearing than the front-runners, because they're not carrying as much speed through the corners. One of the techniques you constantly get better at, is using your brakes less on the approach to corners and carrying more speed through, which means you don't have to drop several gears and nail it to get back to the guy in front.

So far this season I've completed 18 races (plus a whole load of training) and killed one rear mech (£42) and one chain (£12), both in the same crash (which was my fault anyway). Works out at £3 per race, which is acceptable to me, and a very small fraction of the total cost of paying entry fees and travelling to races.

TiRed

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Maybe having a wheel made on a 650b rim? This way you should have clearance to fit a knobbly tyre... as long as it's not a 2 inch tyre, it will fit... whether you will find a MTB tyre of less than 2 inch is another story...

You will certainly struggle with tyre selection. I only modified my 26" because the CX Pros are available in that size. I have not found anything in 650b. That said, in the muddy conditions, the CX Pros seemed pretty grippy. But I'd want Rocket Rons for a dry course. I could fit some 700c disk wheels if absolutely necessary.

I race SS mtb in the Gorrick series and there are far more hills than the two CX courses I've raced. I've not found SS to be a huge disadvantage in these races, and again tend to finish top third in Open Events (2 hours). A 29er carbon HT would be more competitive, but skills and fitness will get you so far. Tarmac sections will, however, definitely hurt!

VamP

VamP wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

Great ride, well done! I was there and really looking forward to it, but had to head home early with a frozen daughter (she's normally really good about hanging around at races, so I have to cut her a bit of slack sometimes).

Gridding seems to be an eternal mystery; I don't think I've ever raced in a league where the gridding consistently made sense (though I guess it all evens out in the long run).

Eastern League is impeccable in this regard. Riders always gridded on average of last three races, and we always give visiting riders a good slot. Nationally ranked riders usually get front row, in some contrast to Central where there were three of us sat at the very back on Saturday At least with London, you can usually snag third or fourth row just by being in the right place.

Did I mention same day results every time?

Speaking of gridding, does anyone know why Central League set their older vets off first?

tgotb

VamP wrote:

Speaking of gridding, does anyone know why Central League set their older vets off first?

The reasoning, if I recall correctly, was that it gives the V50s a better race because the front of their field doesn't get buried in the back of the much larger V40 field. I can't comment on whether it works for the V50s, but it's generally not too big an issue for our part of the V40 field because the 50s are relatively spread out when we get to them and there's enough of a speed differential to get past quickly without being affected. For the guys in the middle of the field, I think it does add to the general confusion about who's in which race.

The one thing I think could be improved across all the leagues I've raced, is clear numbering that differentiates the two fields, so you know immediately whether or not another rider is in your race. In a lot of cases the numbers are different, so it could just be a case of telling the competitors that numbers 200 and up are V50s, but I've been to other races where the numbers appear to be completely mixed.

VamP

TGOTB wrote:

VamP wrote:

Speaking of gridding, does anyone know why Central League set their older vets off first?

The reasoning, if I recall correctly, was that it gives the V50s a better race because the front of their field doesn't get buried in the back of the much larger V40 field. I can't comment on whether it works for the V50s, but it's generally not too big an issue for our part of the V40 field because the 50s are relatively spread out when we get to them and there's enough of a speed differential to get past quickly without being affected. For the guys in the middle of the field, I think it does add to the general confusion about who's in which race.

The one thing I think could be improved across all the leagues I've raced, is clear numbering that differentiates the two fields, so you know immediately whether or not another rider is in your race. In a lot of cases the numbers are different, so it could just be a case of telling the competitors that numbers 200 and up are V50s, but I've been to other races where the numbers appear to be completely mixed.

Well that makes some sense at least, so while it's bucking the trend, I guess that it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Not to bang on about Eastern League too much, but another great thing for us younger old guys is that we get a whole race to ourselves, no other categories on the course at all.

I was totally confused about my progress in the race on Saturday - you were my only reference point in fact.

tgotb

VamP wrote:

I was totally confused about my progress in the race on Saturday - you were my only reference point in fact.

LOL - I think you were 4th. Chapeau on catching up as quickly as you did; I started off the back of a similar sized grid in the Wessex league earlier this season, and spent all race working my way up to the mid teens. I have no idea where I finished; I managed to erase all memory of the bit I had to run, so no clue how many places I hemorrhaged.

There's a great picture of you hurdling the hurdles in one of the albums on the Central League FB page.

How does the Eastern League scoring system work? London have the flashiest system I've ever seen (including 4 laptops in the finish tent) and even they sometimes have issues.

andyp

TGOTB wrote:

How does the Eastern League scoring system work? London have the flashiest system I've ever seen (including 4 laptops in the finish tent) and even they sometimes have issues.

VamP

TGOTB wrote:

How does the Eastern League scoring system work? London have the flashiest system I've ever seen (including 4 laptops in the finish tent) and even they sometimes have issues.

It's a rather brilliant low cost solution, utilising tablets held by the judges who enter the numbers as they come past, and the time gets attached automatically at time of entry. This gets bluetoothed into the master comp at HQ, which utilises some clever software, so that by the time we get home from our races the results are up on the site, including lap splits. I have never seen any subsequent corrections or queries either.

And there's no gantry to fall on the racers as per the Regionals :shock:

tgotb

andyp wrote:

John Mx on vocals, presumably?

VamP

TGOTB wrote:

andyp wrote:

John Mx on vocals, presumably?

''My giddy ants''!

bendertherobot

Did I mention the wind for the weekend? :shock:

andyp

Good luck to VamP and TGOTB (and anyone else on here) at the National Champs this weekend. I hope you both have a satisfying race.