the Cyclo cross racing post

1…2526283031…50

Comments

  • VamP
    VamP Posts: 674
    I love the course at Welwyn. Had a brilliant day out yesterday, fantastic way to round off the season. It was a bit muddy, it is true, but nothing too bad. Was quite happy to stick with the same bike throughout.
  • cyclingsheep
    cyclingsheep Posts: 640
    VamP wrote:
    I love the course at Welwyn. Had a brilliant day out yesterday, fantastic way to round off the season. It was a bit muddy, it is true, but nothing too bad. Was quite happy to stick with the same bike throughout.

    Ooo...get you with a pit bike ;) I didn't have that option but apart from some clicky gears due to mud on the last lap I probably wouldn't have swapped either. Good fun out there yesterday
  • tgotb
    tgotb Posts: 4,714
    That was a fantastic course, it had a bit of everything. After the mudfests of Shrewsbury and Derby it was nice to be able to get on with the riding, without having to worry about preserving the bike. Those fast sweeping off-camber turns were particularly fun; tripod at the ready :D
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • cyclingsheep
    cyclingsheep Posts: 640
    TGOTB wrote:
    Those fast sweeping off-camber turns were particularly fun; tripod at the ready :D

    I was clearly at a different course, all my corners were slow and treacherous :D
  • devhads
    devhads Posts: 236
    ^ :D

    That's the course I remember too. Really enjoyed the challenge though. I was thinking that would be a great place for skills practice, there shouldn't be any restrictions on cycling there when there's no event on, should there
  • VamP
    VamP Posts: 674
    devhads wrote:
    ^ :D

    That's the course I remember too. Really enjoyed the challenge though. I was thinking that would be a great place for skills practice, there shouldn't be any restrictions on cycling there when there's no event on, should there


    I would say that's a very good idea, especially this week while the course is still visible and ripped up. One of the challenges of skills practice is that it's ordinarily quite hard to find terrain that's ripped up in the way a cross race will do. This is particularly true for the very muddy ones.
  • tgotb
    tgotb Posts: 4,714
    That's fine, but the single biggest contributor to a tricky course is the extent to which it's been cut up by other riders; just look at the extent to which the course degrades over the course of a single race, and how the optimum line changes to take advantage of fresher grass. If you go back there next weekend it's likely to be awesome for practicing skills, but wait a few weeks for the grass to recover and it'll be too easy.

    We're lucky enough to have a bunch of us training at the same place every week during the season; and that's enough to keep the track slippery. There may be something similar at Milton Keynes (which also seems to have some established tracks in the bowl) if that's as easy for you to get to...

    Edit: What VamP said!
    BTW, I forgot to ask you (VamP) what tyres you were on yesterday. Rhinos?
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • VamP
    VamP Posts: 674
    Rhino front FMB Supermud rear. It's not a deliberate pattern, I killed the FMB front earlier in the season, and found the Rhino replacement at a lot better price than the FMBs.

    FWIW I can't tell much difference between them, they are both excellent.
  • tgotb
    tgotb Posts: 4,714
    Thanks, useful info to help steer this Summer's purchasing :-)
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • ContrelaMontre
    ContrelaMontre Posts: 3,027
    TGOTB wrote:
    That was a fantastic course, it had a bit of everything. After the mudfests of Shrewsbury and Derby it was nice to be able to get on with the riding, without having to worry about preserving the bike. Those fast sweeping off-camber turns were particularly fun; tripod at the ready :D

    I think I gave rise to a few photo opps on the off camber turns above the start/finish. I just couldn't stay upright on the slippery chicane. What tyre pressures were the more experienced 'crossers running? I'm on Conti Cyclo X Kings but I hit the deck 3 times and wondered if I was running too much PSI at about 30.
    Rule No.10 // It never gets easier, you just go faster
  • tgotb
    tgotb Posts: 4,714
    I was on tubeless Clement PDX clinchers at 19psi. I have raced them as low as 17psi on open courses, but 19 felt a bit safer over those roots (where I was taking it a bit easy nevertheless). I'm about 87kg at the moment.

    Tyres are only part of the equation, technique's even more important. I'm by no means an expert, but techniques that seemed to work for me include:
    - On sketchy fast corners, unclip the inside foot for stability (see pretty much any of this year's #SVENNESS videos)
    - Downhill, touch the front brake while cornering and the front tyre may well lose its battle for grip and slide out from underneath you. Touch the back brake and the back wheel may slide out, but this will rather conveniently point you in the direction you want to go (if you get it right). Yesterday's course was very much a back brake course for team TGOTB.
    - Keeping weight over the front wheel seems to keep it better planted.
    - Uphill, shift weight back to discourage the back wheel from spinning. This also seems to make it easier to point the front of the bike in the right direction (somehow it doesn't quite feel like conventional steering to me). I never get out of the saddle on slippery uphills, though the pros seem to be able to do it without losing traction.
    - If the back wheel slides, you can often keep things together by keeping the power down and waiting for the bike to sort itself out.
    - Related to the above, in thick mud, keep the power down, let the bike go where it wants to go (you can give it suggestions, but nothing more) and sort everything else out when you get to the far end.
    - The best line is often the one with the least churned up grass. For instance, yesterday there was a very high line into the final fast turn onto the finishing straight that had hardly been ridden. You could get your turn in high up on decent grass, and hit the apex pointing almost straight along the straight. That may not have been the best line, but it was safe, and definitely better than the line a lot of people were taking. Again, look at the #SVENNESS videos for inspiration.
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • tgotb
    tgotb Posts: 4,714
    In fact, watching #SVENNESS videos is a fantastic way to improve your technique, not least because you can do it while enjoying a Leffe, and you don't have to clean your bike afterwards...
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • bobley
    bobley Posts: 60
    TGOTB wrote:
    I was on tubeless Clement PDX clinchers at 19psi. I have raced them as low as 17psi on open courses, but 19 felt a bit safer over those roots (where I was taking it a bit easy nevertheless). I'm about 87kg at the moment.

    Crikey, I was on 25 r 22f and I'm not quite as heavy as you - but I am lazy and keep my derierre in the saddle too much so I was feeling the roots occasionally.
  • tgotb
    tgotb Posts: 4,714
    bobley wrote:
    Crikey, I was on 25 r 22f and I'm not quite as heavy as you - but I am lazy and keep my derierre in the saddle too much so I was feeling the roots occasionally.
    I pinch punctured 500 yards after the start at the NT race in Shrewsbury; my approach is not without its risks...
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • devhads
    devhads Posts: 236
    I was on 27r 22f on Challenge Grifos with latex tubes, 83kg. Hit the rim every time I went through the wooded section but no pinch flats. Pleased with that aspect of the tyres, but maybe the wrong tread. Will look at getting some Limus for next year.
  • VamP
    VamP Posts: 674
    TGOTB wrote:
    I was on tubeless Clement PDX clinchers at 19psi. I have raced them as low as 17psi on open courses, but 19 felt a bit safer over those roots (where I was taking it a bit easy nevertheless). I'm about 87kg at the moment.

    Tyres are only part of the equation, technique's even more important. I'm by no means an expert, but techniques that seemed to work for me include:
    - On sketchy fast corners, unclip the inside foot for stability (see pretty much any of this year's #SVENNESS videos)
    - Downhill, touch the front brake while cornering and the front tyre may well lose its battle for grip and slide out from underneath you. Touch the back brake and the back wheel may slide out, but this will rather conveniently point you in the direction you want to go (if you get it right). Yesterday's course was very much a back brake course for team TGOTB.
    - Keeping weight over the front wheel seems to keep it better planted.
    - Uphill, shift weight back to discourage the back wheel from spinning. This also seems to make it easier to point the front of the bike in the right direction (somehow it doesn't quite feel like conventional steering to me). I never get out of the saddle on slippery uphills, though the pros seem to be able to do it without losing traction.
    - If the back wheel slides, you can often keep things together by keeping the power down and waiting for the bike to sort itself out.
    - Related to the above, in thick mud, keep the power down, let the bike go where it wants to go (you can give it suggestions, but nothing more) and sort everything else out when you get to the far end.
    - The best line is often the one with the least churned up grass. For instance, yesterday there was a very high line into the final fast turn onto the finishing straight that had hardly been ridden. You could get your turn in high up on decent grass, and hit the apex pointing almost straight along the straight. That may not have been the best line, but it was safe, and definitely better than the line a lot of people were taking. Again, look at the #SVENNESS videos for inspiration.

    You know you're making competitors for yourself for next season don't you :D

    How long does it usually take CL to put results up? I have been itching all day.
  • antsmithmk
    antsmithmk Posts: 717
    Yes I have been hitting refresh on their homepage today! I think I placed 3rd in the novices
  • antsmithmk
    antsmithmk Posts: 717
    Glad it wasnt just me that took the high line into the last corner then! I watched the vets come round after lap one and 1 in 6 were having enough trouble to come off completely. Everyone that followed the racing line seemed to slip badly!
  • cyclingsheep
    cyclingsheep Posts: 640
    TGOTB wrote:
    - The best line is often the one with the least churned up grass. For instance, yesterday there was a very high line into the final fast turn onto the finishing straight that had hardly been ridden. You could get your turn in high up on decent grass, and hit the apex pointing almost straight along the straight. That may not have been the best line, but it was safe, and definitely better than the line a lot of people were taking. Again, look at the #SVENNESS videos for inspiration.

    Yeah I came a cropper on that corner on my first lap despite doing exactly that but it served me well every other lap, probably just wasn't high enough, you really had to hug the tape. That line certainly made for better speed along the straight
  • tgotb
    tgotb Posts: 4,714
    VamP wrote:
    You know you're making competitors for yourself for next season don't you :D

    How long does it usually take CL to put results up? I have been itching all day.
    LOL - Won't make any difference to whether I get lapped at the Nationals though :-)

    Speed varies depending on the organising club; sometimes Sunday evening, sometimes a couple of days. U10 and U12 results for the Southern Area Champs took well over a week, and as far as I can tell they never gave out the prizes :-(
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • cyclingsheep
    cyclingsheep Posts: 640
    On another note though I really need to do the tripod thing, problem is I'm a bit shy of it after a freak accident mtbing. Stuck my leg out downhilling and foot got caught on something on the inside of the corner. Shattered ankle, broken leg and screw to hold it all together. Hence why I stay clipped in but guess I'll just have to get over that.
  • VamP
    VamP Posts: 674
    TGOTB wrote:
    VamP wrote:
    You know you're making competitors for yourself for next season don't you :D

    How long does it usually take CL to put results up? I have been itching all day.
    LOL - Won't make any difference to whether I get lapped at the Nationals though :-)
    (

    Tru dat.
  • PuttyKnees
    PuttyKnees Posts: 381
    Those tips are all right out of the handbook. Literally - it's what we coach to young kids! The tripod is a bit of crutch I've found though as once I twigged that it can help, I generally use it every time, even when unnecessary. Last race I forced myself to stay clipped in and get the power down.

    I think the key to pros being able to ride up slippery stuff out of the saddle is that they're generally going that much faster that the transit time is much smaller up the banks.
  • antsmithmk
    antsmithmk Posts: 717
    Yes I have noticed that the faster you ride, the easier the course is. When you glide across the lumps and bumps they seem to be effortless.... However after a lap I am usually on the rivet and slowing, and then every lump and bump seems to take even more energy out of me!
  • ContrelaMontre
    ContrelaMontre Posts: 3,027
    TGOTB wrote:
    I was on tubeless Clement PDX clinchers at 19psi. I have raced them as low as 17psi on open courses, but 19 felt a bit safer over those roots (where I was taking it a bit easy nevertheless). I'm about 87kg at the moment.

    Tyres are only part of the equation, technique's even more important. I'm by no means an expert, but techniques that seemed to work for me include:
    - On sketchy fast corners, unclip the inside foot for stability (see pretty much any of this year's #SVENNESS videos)
    - Downhill, touch the front brake while cornering and the front tyre may well lose its battle for grip and slide out from underneath you. Touch the back brake and the back wheel may slide out, but this will rather conveniently point you in the direction you want to go (if you get it right). Yesterday's course was very much a back brake course for team TGOTB.
    - Keeping weight over the front wheel seems to keep it better planted.
    - Uphill, shift weight back to discourage the back wheel from spinning. This also seems to make it easier to point the front of the bike in the right direction (somehow it doesn't quite feel like conventional steering to me). I never get out of the saddle on slippery uphills, though the pros seem to be able to do it without losing traction.
    - If the back wheel slides, you can often keep things together by keeping the power down and waiting for the bike to sort itself out.
    - Related to the above, in thick mud, keep the power down, let the bike go where it wants to go (you can give it suggestions, but nothing more) and sort everything else out when you get to the far end.
    - The best line is often the one with the least churned up grass. For instance, yesterday there was a very high line into the final fast turn onto the finishing straight that had hardly been ridden. You could get your turn in high up on decent grass, and hit the apex pointing almost straight along the straight. That may not have been the best line, but it was safe, and definitely better than the line a lot of people were taking. Again, look at the #SVENNESS videos for inspiration.

    This is a brilliantly full response! Thanks!

    Forum posting beats Twitter!
    Rule No.10 // It never gets easier, you just go faster
  • VamP
    VamP Posts: 674
    TGOTB wrote:
    I was on tubeless Clement PDX clinchers at 19psi. I have raced them as low as 17psi on open courses, but 19 felt a bit safer over those roots (where I was taking it a bit easy nevertheless). I'm about 87kg at the moment.

    Just re-reading this TGOTB, I hadn't realised you were on tubeless when we had our discussion. I am impressed that you are managing to ride the PDXs that low without burping. You might not see the performance benefits of tubs over those that I was suggesting when we spoke, as 90% of that benefit comes from the ability to go low, and you already have that. And by all accounts that PDX is a pretty damn compliant carcass.

    One question: how do you measure your pressures? I find that there can be as much as 5 psi between what the track pump tells me, and what my digital gauge tells me.
  • tgotb
    tgotb Posts: 4,714
    VamP wrote:
    TGOTB wrote:
    I was on tubeless Clement PDX clinchers at 19psi. I have raced them as low as 17psi on open courses, but 19 felt a bit safer over those roots (where I was taking it a bit easy nevertheless). I'm about 87kg at the moment.

    Just re-reading this TGOTB, I hadn't realised you were on tubeless when we had our discussion. I am impressed that you are managing to ride the PDXs that low without burping. You might not see the performance benefits of tubs over those that I was suggesting when we spoke, as 90% of that benefit comes from the ability to go low, and you already have that. And by all accounts that PDX is a pretty damn compliant carcass.

    One question: how do you measure your pressures? I find that there can be as much as 5 psi between what the track pump tells me, and what my digital gauge tells me.
    I'm not quite sure why I've never had issues with burping; it might be the Iron Cross rims, which are specifically designed for tubeless. I've actually ridden them down to 12psi as an experiment. The handling was dreadful (presumably the whole tyre folding over on corners) but it still held together. 17psi's the lowest I've actually raced, and I think that's about the practical limit at my weight, for a course without too many roots. With all those concrete edges at Shrewsbury, 19psi clearly wasn't enough, but I think I'd have got away with 21. These are all measured using a Topeak digital gauge, which I believe to be accurate.

    Edit: One issue I think I do have with my setup is the overall width. The combination of wide rims and a big tyre mean there's loads of volume (which is good for grip and may be why can get away with such low pressure) but the frame clearances are relatively tight (tight enough that I can't get my little finger between frame and sidewall); I doubt this was doing me many favours in the conditions we had in Derby...
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • VamP
    VamP Posts: 674
    So what actually happened to the tyre at Shrewsbury? Did you actually destroy the carcass?

    Thanks for the response. Very interesting.


    There's whole bunch of great pictures from Welwyn on the CL website, but still no results...
  • tgotb
    tgotb Posts: 4,714
    Yeah, I pinch flatted the carcass itself; one hole right next to the bead and one in the tread area. It was a pretty hard impact though; I hit one of those edges (coming off one of those lumps onto the tarmac just after the start) at a slight angle, so the full impact was taken by a single point on one side of the rim. Can't really blame the kit, I either needed more pressure, or to be gentler with the bike (easier said than done in the first minute of a race!)
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • VamP
    VamP Posts: 674
    TGOTB wrote:
    Yeah, I pinch flatted the carcass itself; one hole right next to the bead and one in the tread area. It was a pretty hard impact though; I hit one of those edges (coming off one of those lumps onto the tarmac just after the start) at a slight angle, so the full impact was taken by a single point on one side of the rim. Can't really blame the kit, I either needed more pressure, or to be gentler with the bike (easier said than done in the first minute of a race!)

    That is one big upside of tubs, that you can keep riding on a flat. Unless you have rolled it, like a clubmate did on Saturday.

    How long does it take you to change a tyre with your tubeless set-up?

Categories