Contador tests positive for Clenbuterol

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Comments

  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    Getting WAY ahead of ourselves here in terms of talking about bans and such.

    But, hypothetically - if there was a ban of any kind, Riis and Saxo are screwed in terms of their prospects for next year. No team leader and a lot of domestiques.

    That RadioShack rider got his ban overturned by CAS - I see this going the same way (if it even gets that far).
  • Neil Buckley
    Neil Buckley Posts: 334
    Pokerface wrote:
    Neil Buckley wrote:
    Only been in this sport two years but jesus, i've never know so many cynical people not allowing the past to stay in the past and not allowing the sport to move forward (BTW I have an A level in sports nutrition so I understand very much about doping, before you ask)


    We're cynical because of the past - but riders continue to get busted in the present - and often after super-human performances. Contador is a rider that seems to good to be true at times and has been linked to doping in the past (Puerto).

    Maybe it's all innocent. But the sport cannot 'move forward' until all doping practices are firmly stamped out of the sport. Which will probably never happen. But every time someone is caught - the sport gets closer to being cleaner - and THAT...is progress.

    Totally agree with you, but i'm going to wait and see with this one, this isn't a normal doping case, if you have seen some of the side effects with Clenbuterol are not compatible with a sport like cycling, body overheating, heart rate palptations, headaches (these can be extreme and taking in the considerations of AC's medial history) cramp, also you need to stack Clenbuterol for it to work correctly, hence the very very low levels being so abnormal.

    But saying that if hes guilty, good riddence, but this isn't a clear cut issue i.e arseholes like Ricco etc etc....
    Helmand Province is such a nice place.....
  • Cumulonimbus
    Cumulonimbus Posts: 1,730
    edited September 2010
    Pokerface wrote:
    Getting WAY ahead of ourselves here in terms of talking about bans and such.

    But, hypothetically - if there was a ban of any kind, Riis and Saxo are screwed in terms of their prospects for next year. No team leader and a lot of domestiques.

    That RadioShack rider got his ban overturned by CAS - I see this going the same way (if it even gets that far).

    Have you a link for that? Ive tried googling and can come up with anything?

    (every link to him at the moment is in relation to Contador)
  • BikingBernie
    BikingBernie Posts: 2,163
    dmclite wrote:
    BikingBernie wrote:
    If his earlier samples had been tested for Clenbuterol and were clean, and if the UCI's report as to the concentration levels are accurate this would leave open the possibility that doping was not involved. I will await Kleber's link before passing further judgment. :wink:
    I wonder if this was a certain Texan you would be so lenient in your judgement...
    Of course. Then again, if as much evidence were to comes to light showing that Contador is a doper as there already stands against Armstrong, it would be irrational to assume that he was clean.

    Anyhow, please don't try to drag Armstrong into this, as some may take offence. :wink:
  • feltkuota
    feltkuota Posts: 333
    IAlain Baxter lost his Bronze medal at the winter olympics due to his real mistake of buying a vic's inhaler in the us instead of the product that he used in the uk and had an exemption for. A genuine error that also saw him banned. Now, whilst they are not directly related, I can't see any other outcome than AC losing his title, it being passed to Schlek and AC being banned.. I can't decide if I'm pleased with the news (ie tests do work etc) this morning or sorry to hear it (another nail in the coffin of cycling)..
  • Spiny_Norman
    Spiny_Norman Posts: 128
    neeb wrote:
    Top of the sports news on Radio 4's News Briefing this morning. All summer I've been fuming at the complete lack of any cycling coverage, now as soon as there is something negative to say it is in the headlines. Could this have anything to do with Sky's focus on cycling and BBC / Sky rivalries?
    Or could it be that "winner of world's top cycling race (and the only one 90% will have heard of) tests positive" is a rather bigger story than "obscure race in minor interest sport - heavily favoured foreigner wins"?

    This story is currently the most read on the BBC website. Can you seriously imagine any report on any race, even Le Tour, threatening the top 100 stories? I can't. Why not just accept that this is a story in a way that no ordinary sports report could ever be?
    N00b commuter with delusions of competence

    FCN 11 - If you scalp me, do I not bleed?
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,605
    Let's face it EPO is hardly beneficial to the long term health of a cyclist either and neither was amphetamine but it hasn't stopped cyclists using them over the years. The need to win or perform strongly enough to keep your job outweighs and worry about side effects. Clenbuterol was fairly widely used in cycling and athletics in the 80s and 90s IIRC.
  • ewizzy1977
    ewizzy1977 Posts: 92
    I wonder how fast they would all be if they were all allowed to take drugs to enhance their performance :P
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,743
    Great picture on the guardian home-page..
    _
  • sonny73
    sonny73 Posts: 2,203
    I read this at about 12.30 last night on Velonation and was gutted.
    If it was intentional or not the argument will rage on forever, but either way it is us the fans that will be robbed.
    If it was intentional then some great memories and the history books are tarnished.
    If it was not I feel truely sorry for him and we will be robbed of watching one of the greats in his prime, either literally with a ban or he will now always be frowned upon by many with understandable suspicions.
    Even mates at work this morning have mentioned it to me and they know nothing about cycling.
    It's a sad day.
  • BikingBernie
    BikingBernie Posts: 2,163
    Neil Buckley wrote:
    [if you have seen some of the side effects with Clenbuterol are not compatible with a sport like cycling, body overheating, heart rate palptations, headaches (these can be extreme and taking in the considerations of AC's medial history) cramp, also you need to stack Clenbuterol for it to work correctly, hence the very very low levels being so abnormal.
    I posted this earlier, but Voet's experience of using Clenbuterol does not seem to fit with what you say:

    Banned from the market in France, Clenbuterol is one of the most powerful hormones when it comes to developing muscular mass. Beef rearers are well aware of its properties: the more meat they can sell, the more money they make. It can give spectacular muscle growth. To work out its effects precisely, we needed a guinea-pig, but it couldn't be one of the riders. They are so happy to be given something new that they tend to lose all restraint and the whole pelelon knows exactly what's happening over the next few weeks. We found the right man soon enough: me. Before the Dauphine Libere in 1996 I took ten pills over seven days, then urinated conscientiously into a jar from days five to eight after taking the final pill. The whole works was then sent to a laboratory in Ghent. The Clenbuterol had been eliminated from my system by day eight. For a cyclist, who will get rid of chemicals far more quickly than someone sedentary like me, the period was still shorter.

    And the effects were felt almost immediately. Three hours after I took the first pill, I began shivering. I had the impression that my lungs were swelling, that I had a new battery somewhere in the system. I felt confident, full of energy, strong as a bull - on hormones. The effects lasted for more than a month, effects which we used with good results in the big Tours after that.

    And from Wikipedia:

    Clenbuterol is a non-steroidal β2 adrenergic agonist[1] with some structural and pharmacological similarities to epinephrine and salbutamol, but its effects are more potent and longer-lasting as a stimulant and thermogenic drug. It causes an increase in aerobic capacity, central nervous system stimulation, and an increase in blood pressure and oxygen transportation. It increases the rate at which fats are metabolized, simultaneously increasing the body's BMR.

    Sounds like the potential payoffs are well worth the cost in terms of the side-effects.
  • surista
    surista Posts: 141
    Pokerface wrote:
    That RadioShack rider got his ban overturned by CAS - I see this going the same way (if it even gets that far).
    Pokerface, what rider are you referrring to? The only Radioshack rider caught for doping that I know if is Fuyu Li, and the last I heard (August?) his A- and B-sample tests had both come back positive and he was facing a 2-year ban.
    "It doesn't get any easier, you just get faster"
    http://blue-eyed-samurai.com/cycling/
  • Neil Buckley
    Neil Buckley Posts: 334
    BikingBernie, was there a test in 96' for it??? taking a thermogenic (a drug that raises the core temperature) drug in a sport like cycling is bonkers, especially how hot the Tour was this year, im not defending AC I hate doping but the levels dont make sense, especially how much of the drug you need. And no offence cutting and pasting can only tell you half the story and Willy Voets, great bloke, the person who pretty much helped the rot start in cycling. Also look at the Alain Baxter story also. He wasnt a doper,
    Helmand Province is such a nice place.....
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    Just a thought, cos I dont know... but if the contaminated food line is taken and people are only mentioning beef, do cyclists eat beef during a tour? I dont know, so am not meaning to sound daft, but do they consume red meat? Its not like they just 'eat what they want'. Only a random little thought.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    The major points brought up by Dr. de Boer's opinion are as follows:

    * Alberto Contador underwent sport drug testing during many days of the 2010 Tour de France, including July 19, 20, 21, and 22.
    * No Clenbuterol was detected in any of the tests prior to July 21.
    * An extremely low trace concentration of Clenbuterol was found in the urine sample taken on July 21; the concentration found in the urine sample taken on July 22 was even lower.
    * The half-life of Clenbuterol is 25-39 hours.
    * These facts show that Clenbuterol was ingested after the urine testing on July 20 in an amount that could have never enhanced his performance.
    * There are numerous documented cases of humans ingesting Clenbuterol accidentally by eating meat from animals that have been fed the substance to stimulate growth.

    See full here:
    http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5837/ ... z1104hMz9d
    Contador is the Greatest
  • pb21
    pb21 Posts: 2,170
    How can he prove it was from tainted meat?

    Unless he can do that I think he is screwed, no matter how small the amount detected.
    Mañana
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    surista wrote:
    Pokerface wrote:
    That RadioShack rider got his ban overturned by CAS - I see this going the same way (if it even gets that far).
    Pokerface, what rider are you referrring to? The only Radioshack rider caught for doping that I know if is Fuyu Li, and the last I heard (August?) his A- and B-sample tests had both come back positive and he was facing a 2-year ban.


    Perhaps I am mistaken but I thought I read that he took his case to CAS and had his ban overturned. Of course, now I can't find the source. :(
  • mrushton
    mrushton Posts: 5,182
    Sad that this is the BIG story, not Cancellara gaining a 4th title, Millar coming a good 2nd and Pooley achieving a huge win. 3 big stories in one race series.
    M.Rushton
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    edited September 2010
    So, given the info in my above post, can someone explain why Contador would intentionally ingest totally insignificant amounts if it would have zero effect on his performance?
    Contador is the Greatest
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    frenchfighter wrote:
    The major points brought up by Dr. de Boer's opinion are as follows:

    * Alberto Contador underwent sport drug testing during many days of the 2010 Tour de France, including July 19, 20, 21, and 22.
    * No Clenbuterol was detected in any of the tests prior to July 21.
    * An extremely low trace concentration of Clenbuterol was found in the urine sample taken on July 21; the concentration found in the urine sample taken on July 22 was even lower.
    * The half-life of Clenbuterol is 25-39 hours.
    * These facts show that Clenbuterol was ingested after the urine testing on July 20 in an amount that could have never enhanced his performance.
    * There are numerous documented cases of humans ingesting Clenbuterol accidentally by eating meat from animals that have been fed the substance to stimulate growth.

    See full here:
    http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5837/ ... z1104hMz9d


    This all assumes that he was tested for clenbuterol in previous tests.

    And - accidental or not - he is still responsible. He may clear his name - but he may not get off 100%.


    I admit it all seems a bit odd - but stranger things have happened.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    edited September 2010
    frenchfighter wrote:
    So can someone explain why Contador would intentionally ingest totally insignificant amounts if it would have zero effect on his performance?
    That doesn't matter. Look at the Scottish skiier Alain Baxter, he took a cold remedy at the winter olympics and got banned. The rules are pretty inflexible here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Baxt ... ontroversy

    For a summary of the rules, see:
    http://theinnerring.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... tests.html
  • pb21
    pb21 Posts: 2,170
    frenchfighter wrote:
    So, given the info in my above post, can someone explain why Contador would intentionally ingest totally insignificant amounts if it would have zero effect on his performance?

    I dont think that matters.
    Mañana
  • surista
    surista Posts: 141
    frenchfighter wrote:
    So, given the info in my above post, can someone explain why Contador would intentionally ingest totally insignificant amounts if it would have zero effect on his performance?
    The amounts wouldn't have been ingested to enhance performance. It was to aid -recovery-.

    He waited for after possible post-stage testing on the 20th, took the PED to aid recovery with the rest day on the 21st. I'm sure he was gambling that he wouldn't be tested on the rest day, having been tested for the last few days prior.

    It's by far the simplest, and most reasonable, explanation.

    Food contamination is a convenient excuse, but pretty much unbelievable given that pro teams have teams of professional chefs that I'm sure are extremely rigorous about what food goes into the rides' bodies. And I haven't heard of any other Astana riders testing positive.

    There's no wiggle room here. He's going to be stripped of the title. Best case scenario he's able to convince the regulators to reduce his ban to one year.
    "It doesn't get any easier, you just get faster"
    http://blue-eyed-samurai.com/cycling/
  • smithy21
    smithy21 Posts: 2,204
    frenchfighter wrote:
    So, given the info in my above post, can someone explain why Contador would intentionally ingest totally insignificant amounts if it would have zero effect on his performance?

    I dont think that is the way any drug testing agency can look at it. Like it or not the bad apples have spoiled everything for everyone else to the extent that even a miniscule positive is still a positive and the motives behind it count for nothing.

    Look at the lengths athletes who get caught will go to to "prove their innocence" before they admit years later that they were at it.

    I cant see how there is going to be any other result from this than a ban.
  • Richrd2205
    Richrd2205 Posts: 1,267
    frenchfighter wrote:
    So, given the info in my above post, can someone explain why Contador would intentionally ingest totally insignificant amounts if it would have zero effect on his performance?
    Upthread, someone mentioned the possibility of using a contaminated blood top up. As is also stated up-thread, using a thermogenic drug mid-race might be a little odd, but using off season as a fat burner & taking blood a day or so too soon, then re-infusing on a rest day wouldn't be a particularly unlikely scenario, it seems.
  • polocini
    polocini Posts: 201
    Who broke the story??? The first thread/website?? It's really sad that this is going to overshadow the worlds. The worlds organisers might as well let Landis speak now.

    It was actually quite sad this morning at work as colleagues at work who know nothing about cycling couldn't wait to tell me that the 'tour de France bloke' has been done cheating!

    AL
  • mrushton
    mrushton Posts: 5,182
    edited September 2010
    Who was it who questioned Bertie's VAM a couple of years back? He said that Bertie was poss. the greatest athlete ever judging by the figures. Bertie brushed the question aside, He also beat Cancellara in a TT but that might be about drafting.

    Team Luxembourg may be getting that champagne on ice yet.
    M.Rushton
  • Cumulonimbus
    Cumulonimbus Posts: 1,730
    surista wrote:

    Food contamination is a convenient excuse, but pretty much unbelievable given that pro teams have teams of professional chefs that I'm sure are extremely rigorous about what food goes into the rides' bodies. And I haven't heard of any other Astana riders testing positive.

    The clenbuterol only seems to last in your system a short time. Unless any other Astana riders were tested within a few days then they wouldnt test positive. None of the others were leading contenders (although they were affecting the race through helping Contador) so maybe no other Astana riders were tested within a suitable time frame?
  • SunWuKong
    SunWuKong Posts: 364
    Guys you really should read the Dr De Boer article. It seems FF has a valid point regarding the very low levels. Although the previously tainted blood I suppose could also point to such low levels.
  • mrushton
    mrushton Posts: 5,182
    Echoing earlier thoughts.If this was Armstrong there would be delirious cries of joy all over thisforum along with torrents of figures/historical data and 'I knew it'
    M.Rushton

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