Contador tests positive for Clenbuterol
Comments
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vestanpance wrote:
I hear contamination of bank notes with class a drugs is widespread -http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/464200.stm. Do you find it hard to believe that you could ingest a few molecules of drugs from a banknote?
I'm not saying I don't think Contadors a doper, just that it's a very low level of a not particularly useful drug - so it's a strange case that needs to be looked into - which is what the UCI seem to be doing.
Not at all, but I highly doubt you are likely to find a detectable limit in blood or urine after touching a contaminated bank note.
It all depends on the limit of detection of the analyser you're using. The way analytical instrumentation moves along is a bit like the way computers increase in power, so detection limits get lower and lower. Although my drugs on banknotes example was extreme, I wouldn't be surprised if such low levels can be detected in the future.0 -
There must be thresholds to clear so as to not be absurd in awarding penalties or Draconian. Contador is the champion after all and if evidence showed he abused substances, sure I'd like to see him penalised but it's not out of the question that riders have gotten breaks too like Armstrong and that drug test he was late to from the shower a few years ago.0
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FJS,
Other than IM events the pros in triathlon are allowed to draft therefore tactics are every bit as important.0 -
I thought certain values did have a threshold i.e the hemocrit level can't go above 50% and some substances are found in the body naturally, I think EPO exists naturally. I guess with substances it is a bit different but can this exist in a normal plate of meat anyway ?
If the amount isn't important why have the UCI mentioned this and said it needs to be investigated further rather than just say it was a positive and request a two year ban from the Spanish Cycling Authority0 -
By the same token - if the amount was too low to be relevant - why report it and not just give him an automatic pass?0
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The Mad Rapper wrote:cajun_cyclist wrote:By itself, I'd say Clenbuterol gets some use by bodybuilders, I looked it up once, it's like a steroid or something, they may inject cattle with it too.
Clen is NOT a steroid. It elevates the heart rate and increases the rate at which the body burns calories. It is for stripping fat only. Think of it like a stronger version of Ephedrine.
Thank you for the information. I won't forget it now, Clen is written up in some of the body building sites, that may be where I got that impression. No surprise the legal rage for body builders is glorified caffeine pills and powder. Ephedrine to me, is rather strong.0 -
I really doubt whether they are 'every bit as important' considering running leg that follows the cycling. This is rather off-topic BTW, and if triathlon would be very tactical that's fine - doesn't impact on the argument that tactics are partly what makes road cycling interesting to watchfeltkuota wrote:FJS,
Other than IM events the pros in triathlon are allowed to draft therefore tactics are every bit as important.0 -
feltkuota wrote:Quote text I read that Contador bought the meat from Spain, any elaborations as to why?
Simple really. This whole food contamination issue is being looked at the wrong way. It's the cattle that are being bred solely for the purpose of juicing up the riders snacking on the meat (no pun intended). If the cattle are juiced then the riders always have the food contamination get out...The thought of small herds of cattle being bred specifically to juice riders makes me laugh
Inconsequential statement here but I know in parts of Argentina, a famous beef country and in parts of Latin America, one can have totally natural meat. I believe the Argentine football team or Maradona would have Argentine steaks flown in to eat. Yes, I know at many stores now, organic or natural meat is available.0 -
Surelythe team all eat together, did any of the others test positive??????
The following copied from a post on another website,
Clenbuterol has a half life of about 36 hours (i.e. in the body after 36 hours the level of clenbuterol is half what it was at the start of the 36 hours.)
It is about 90% absorbed. i.e. if you take 100 micrograms then only 90 micrograms becomes availabe in the body to have the pharmacological effect.
Minimum therapeutic dose is 20 micrograms.
A 20 microgram dose means 18 microgram are avaiable.
Typical blood volume max is about 5 litres or 50000 mL
So one 20 microgram dose gives a maximum of
19,000,000 picograms in 50000 mL
19,000 picograms in 1 mL
The level detected was 50 picograms per mL.
The time taken for the body to metabolise 19,000 picograms down to 50 picograms would be in the region of 10 to 14 days.
If there is no sample from within this time period preceding the positive result that shows the absence of clenbuterol then there exists the possibility of 'doping' during the TdF.
The next question to ask if what level must exist in food to give a positive result of 50 picograms per mL if consumed in the evning the previous day, and can you demonstrate this level of clenuterol is typical in food that was eaten.0 -
DB100 wrote:Surelythe team all eat together, did any of the others test positive??????
Apparently only Vino was tested, and supposedly he didn't eat the spanish meat. Remember domestiques aren't tested as much, Vino was still high on the GC himself.Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
ARD reporting there were plasticisers in Berts blood.
Like, evidence of blood bag use or something.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
The low level of the drug makes little sense. But doped up meat seems like a stretch.
What further research is the UCI to do?
AC's tour performance was far from ET.
Horrible day for the sport.
Kills me to say as an AC fanboy -- hate to see you go, get the hell out...0 -
So the amount is in his blood because:
He took it during the rest day
He had transfussed blood
He ate that meat
Other
In the first case, it was impossible to administer such small amounts and such small amounts serve no use to an athlete anyway.
For the 2nd case, again the amount would be much larger.
Third case - the amounts would seem plausible although the likelihood is very rare despite its possibility.Contador is the Greatest0 -
iainf72 wrote:ARD reporting there were plasticisers in Berts blood.
Like, evidence of blood bag use or something.
Link?
The transfusion with contaminated blood hypothesis looking like a runner if so....
And again, would like to see his blood values from the time.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
iainf72 wrote:ARD reporting there were plasticisers in Berts blood.
Like, evidence of blood bag use or something.
How would ARD know that ? DIdn't even know storying blood in bags would be detected. If it can that is very good news as blood doping should be a thing of the past0 -
I remember reading an article in cycling weekly after the 2009 TDF and the Journo stated that when Contador was questioned over doping he was always evasive and uncomfortable, the Journo eneded by saying words to the effect of
" seeing this behaviour before and it seldom ends well.
Interesting observation, Contaminated meat, just not buying it as a plausable excuse, also in the letter of the WADA law, he could still be banned0 -
frenchfighter wrote:So the amount is in his blood because:
He took it during the rest day
He had transfussed blood
He ate that meat
Other
In the first case, it was impossible to administer such small amounts and such small amounts serve no use to an athlete anyway.
For the 2nd case, again the amount would be much larger.
Third case - the amounts would seem plausible although the likelihood is very rare despite its possibility.
Sorry FF, but given he was unlikely to have had blood removed straight after taking the Clen you cant rule out the 2nd hypothesis, that's just wishful thinking I'm afraid.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
frenchfighter wrote:So the amount is in his blood because:
He took it during the rest day
He had transfussed blood
He ate that meat
Other
In the first case, it was impossible to administer such small amounts and such small amounts serve no use to an athlete anyway.
For the 2nd case, again the amount would be much larger.
Third case - the amounts would seem plausible although the likelihood is very rare despite its possibility.
Why would the amount be much larger for a blood transfusion? If you spin the blood to limit the plasma content and maximize the RBCs transfused (i.e. the whole point) then the amount of the substance in the transfusion would be significantly reduced from the amount in the initial bloods.0 -
It's good that FF is arguing on the side of Contador. Keeps the debate interesting and brings up lots of valid points. Stops it from being a total witch hunt.0
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Haven't heard or seen a transcript of the press conference, just wondering if any of the following questions were asked about the "contaminated meat" explanation:
- give that you've known about this result for some time, what investigations have been requested or actually carried out to trace the source of the meat, ie back to the individual farm/production unit responsible?
- if some have been carried out, what have they discovered?
- if it's not possible to identify the individual farm/production unit, why not? Where does the trail break down?
- if the trail has broken down, is there not a failure of team management to ensure a traceable supply chain, given that this sort of thing can happen?
- if there have been no investigations, why not? And are there any planned now?
I guess my gist is that it's ok being angry and complaining about contaminated meat, but if I were AC/my team I'd be trying to gather the evidence to support my story.0 -
iainf72 wrote:ARD reporting there were plasticisers in Berts blood.
Like, evidence of blood bag use or something.
And absolutely butchering the UCI/Pat : http://www.sportschau.de/sp/layout/jsp/ ... #mbContent (in German)
roughly: Pat lied - they asked Pat yesterday about this case, and he simply answered he knew nothing about all this. And one day later this press conference. They accuse UCI of giving Contador time to come up with an explanation and wanting to hush it all up.
And yes, suggestions of own-blood-transfusion ('weichmacher' - weak-makers?) in a test 1 day earlier, again, according to their doping-correspondent, not yet made public to brush it all under the carpet... followed by again a couple of times clearly accusing Pat McQuaid personally of lying0 -
One interesting thing we've learned from the thread is that farmers could microdose their cows with clenbuterol and remain below the EU limit for the drug and thus not get reported.0
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No tA Doctor wrote:frenchfighter wrote:So the amount is in his blood because:
He took it during the rest day
He had transfussed blood
He ate that meat
Other
In the first case, it was impossible to administer such small amounts and such small amounts serve no use to an athlete anyway.
For the 2nd case, again the amount would be much larger.
Third case - the amounts would seem plausible although the likelihood is very rare despite its possibility.
Sorry FF, but given he was unlikely to have had blood removed straight after taking the Clen you cant rule out the 2nd hypothesis, that's just wishful thinking I'm afraid.
+1 ...if it was a blood transfusion from a previous time when he took it then its quite possible he'd been training on all sorts, just possible, and slipped up that this was one thing left in his system, and blood trans is a bit naughty isnt it?
But, it doesnt matter, cos it wasnt that, cos Alberto's said already it was from some steak that a mate had brought from Spain for him, he obviously knows this as he had the meat tested at the time to be able to say so. He shouldnt really have eaten it should he, should have stuck to his pot noodle.0 -
Perhaps what happened was that his mate called and said 'hey, im coming up from Spain to catch up with ya, was thinking, dya want me to bring some grub with me?' and got back a perfectly normal reply like 'ah yeah, be good to see ya Geoff, tell you what, can you bring some nice meat with you? Some lovely steak would be nice, I do like a steak, and of course this being France they're not world renowned for food at all, cant get a decent bit of meat anywhere' ...'yeah, sure... i'll wang some steaks in the boot no problem for ya' ...'ah, ta, shout us when you're here, cant wait, love and kisses, Alberto'.0
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DB100 wrote:Surelythe team all eat together, did any of the others test positive??????
The following copied from a post on another website,
Clenbuterol has a half life of about 36 hours (i.e. in the body after 36 hours the level of clenbuterol is half what it was at the start of the 36 hours.)
It is about 90% absorbed. i.e. if you take 100 micrograms then only 90 micrograms becomes availabe in the body to have the pharmacological effect.
Minimum therapeutic dose is 20 micrograms.
A 20 microgram dose means 18 microgram are avaiable.
Typical blood volume max is about 5 litres or 50000 mL
So one 20 microgram dose gives a maximum of
19,000,000 picograms in 50000 mL
19,000 picograms in 1 mL
The level detected was 50 picograms per mL.
The time taken for the body to metabolise 19,000 picograms down to 50 picograms would be in the region of 10 to 14 days.
If there is no sample from within this time period preceding the positive result that shows the absence of clenbuterol then there exists the possibility of 'doping' during the TdF.
The next question to ask if what level must exist in food to give a positive result of 50 picograms per mL if consumed in the evning the previous day, and can you demonstrate this level of clenuterol is typical in food that was eaten.
Are you quite sure of your calculations? Last time I checked there was only 1000ml in a L!
Also, it's not just a simple case of taking how much blood an average person has to calculate potential blood values. The actual amount of drug available to exert a pharmacological effect is known as the bioavailability and this can vary depending upon many factors including clearance rates and the volume of distribution. The volume of distribution can be significantly greater or less than the total volume of blood. See this link for help...http://aquaticpath.umd.edu/appliedtox/m ... edist.html
one important factor not mentioned yet is that the sample from AC was a urine sample and it is known that the majority of a dose (up to 80%) is excreted in the urine within 72 hours of a dose. So taking this into consideration is it a great surprise that so little was found in his urine sample?0 -
I can't believe that a professional cycling team
1. stays in a hotel where the food is not of sufficient calibre
2. just calls out to get a steak.
I don't buy the "steakaway" . Its a bit of a rump story even though I herd it on the news. I think there moo-re to this than meats the rib-eye. I think its a bit of an ox-tail.
I'll get my leather ..0 -
sherer wrote:I thought certain values did have a threshold i.e the hemocrit level can't go above 50% and some substances are found in the body naturally, I think EPO exists naturally. I guess with substances it is a bit different but can this exist in a normal plate of meat anyway ?
If the amount isn't important why have the UCI mentioned this and said it needs to be investigated further rather than just say it was a positive and request a two year ban from the Spanish Cycling Authority
Hormones, hematocrit are naturally occurring therefore a test for them is irrelevant. Safe levels are set & if you are in excess then that points to the presence of a 'smoking gun' causing the fluctuation.
Clenbuterol isn't naturally occurring, so it's presence in a test, no matter how small is the 'smoking gun'.0 -
Cycling is unique in that it’s one of the only sports that implodes on itself in spectacular fashion - case in point. Loyal fans put so much faith in riders like Contador, Basso, Millar, Armstrong, Petacchi, etc only to have their hopes dashed to pieces. They all dope. Most of the greats have doped – the practice has been around since the beginning and it will always be a part of the sport. That’s why the guy running the lab test should have overlooked the minute positive test result so we can bicker over something important like health care or the downward economic spiral.0
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meenaghman wrote:I can't believe that a professional cycling team
1. stays in a hotel where the food is not of sufficient calibre
quote]
To be fair the teams don't always get a choice of hotels at the tour.
AL0
