Pope
Comments
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"7) Part of the reason that Brits are so good and moral and great and wonderful is the contribution that the Christian faith has made over the generations.
Hopefully that contribution won't be forgotten. "
B'llocks.
Humans are adapted to get along with each other. Any neurologist will tell you that we have a bit in the brain dedicated to figuring out fairness, whether we're being cheated, etc.
So, it's sod all to do with religion that we have morals / rules whatever you want to call them.
It's down to evolution.
It's what humans do. It's pretty clear that moral rules don't come from religion, but partly visa versa.
The other thing that makes humans so excellent, apart from communication and hence working together, is figuring out cause and effect.
We are obsessed with figuring out the why. That's why we can do tools, understand a bit about particle physics, etc. Our brains are wired to see patterns from minimal information.
And so, when we can't find a cause, we fill in the gaps with......
QED0 -
Heard this a week or two back, it summed it up for me... I won't be seeing the pope....
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.” - Steven Weinberg--
Chris
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UpTheWall wrote:"7) Part of the reason that Brits are so good and moral and great and wonderful is the contribution that the Christian faith has made over the generations.
Hopefully that contribution won't be forgotten. "
B'llocks.
Humans are adapted to get along with each other. Any neurologist will tell you that we have a bit in the brain dedicated to figuring out fairness, whether we're being cheated, etc.
So, it's sod all to do with religion that we have morals / rules whatever you want to call them.
It's down to evolution.
It's what humans do. It's pretty clear that moral rules don't come from religion, but partly visa versa.
The other thing that makes humans so excellent, apart from communication and hence working together, is figuring out cause and effect.
We are obsessed with figuring out the why. That's why we can do tools, understand a bit about particle physics, etc. Our brains are wired to see patterns from minimal information.
And so, when we can't find a cause, we fill in the gaps with......
QED
Sure , you can disagree with what the pope said.
I'm making the point that he didn't say atheists are nazis.
There's been some crappy reporting around his visit, giving free rein to some unpleasant anti-catholic garbage like twats calling the pope a nazi supporter.0 -
Sketchley wrote:Heard this a week or two back, it summed it up for me... I won't be seeing the pope....
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.” - Steven Weinberg
Well said that man.
"Good is a point of view" (Emperor Palpatine)
Morality is relative. (Me).
Christians in the 50s in the US used to think the cinema was bad. Christians in Holland used to think windmills were satanic and went around burning them down. In the old testament, you were unclean until you got a bit of your willy chopped off; when a woman was 'on', she had to live outside the camp for 7 days; and if you had a pimple you had to go and get the priest to pop it for you.
It's all relative to the society / culture you're in. Sod all to do with and absolutes from god. That's just an easy way for people in power to convince you that their point of view is better than yours.
All people are capable of doing "bad" things and "good" things. Hitler didn't think he was being bad by bombing coventry, just as Churchill didn't think he was being bad bombing Dresden. It was justified using their relative moral codes, i.e. in the context of their nationality.
Have a read of Professor Philip Zimbardo who explains that much more eloquently than me.0 -
mybreakfastconsisted wrote:UpTheWall wrote:"7) Part of the reason that Brits are so good and moral and great and wonderful is the contribution that the Christian faith has made over the generations.
Hopefully that contribution won't be forgotten. "
B'llocks.
Humans are adapted to get along with each other. Any neurologist will tell you that we have a bit in the brain dedicated to figuring out fairness, whether we're being cheated, etc.
So, it's sod all to do with religion that we have morals / rules whatever you want to call them.
It's down to evolution.
It's what humans do. It's pretty clear that moral rules don't come from religion, but partly visa versa.
The other thing that makes humans so excellent, apart from communication and hence working together, is figuring out cause and effect.
We are obsessed with figuring out the why. That's why we can do tools, understand a bit about particle physics, etc. Our brains are wired to see patterns from minimal information.
And so, when we can't find a cause, we fill in the gaps with......
QED
Sure , you can disagree with what the pope said.
I'm making the point that he didn't say atheists are nazis.
There's been some crappy reporting around his visit, giving free rein to some unpleasant anti-catholic garbage like twats calling the pope a nazi supporter.
He said the nazi's were athiests, and implied athiests were analagous to nazis.0 -
I am more than happy to stand corrected here, but all I can see is that the pope is saying Nazi action can be classed as atheist extremism.
He said:
"We can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews.
"I also recall the regime's attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives.
"As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society," he added.0 -
I'm confused. Does the Pope hate Nazis or love Nazis?“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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Greg66 wrote:mybreakfastconsisted wrote:6) Brits, both secular and religious solved the NI problem
6) discounts the contribution of the Irish.
I may regret getting into this, but how exactly did Brits solve the NI problem?
Was this in the same way that Brits solved the Slavery problem?
Unless this was was some issue with the Social Security system that Dave has got sorted.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Woah holy crap, religious debate.. umm
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mybreakfastconsisted wrote:Hitlerjugend membership was compulsory- resistance to the nazis was possible but could have resulted in the torture and death of you and your family.
Oh, I see. He was suborned Nazi. You should have said.
And an accidental German soldier too, no doubt.
Well, look at it this way. If you'd been a British soldier in 1944, and you'd come across him in battle, what would you have said he was?
What's that saying? There were more members of the French Resistance than there were Frenchmen?
Buddhist monks who burn themselves alive as a protest against religious persecution. *That's* conviction in a belief.0 -
mybreakfastconsisted wrote:I am more than happy to stand corrected here, but all I can see is that the pope is saying Nazi action can be classed as atheist extremism.
He said:
"We can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews.
"I also recall the regime's attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives.
"As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society," he added.
I would love to erradicate God and Religion from society.
Let us never forget that God and religion in all its guises has led to millons of deaths, misery, torture and hatred."Encyclopaedia is a fetish for very small bicycles"0 -
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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Wallace1492 wrote:Let us never forget that God and religion in all its guises has led to millons of deaths, misery, torture and hatred.
I think we may have done 30 odd pages on this before“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
Ratzinger’s family had to move house several times because of their opposition to the nazis. The pope himself deserted the German army, that's why he became a POW. Too many tabloid-reading myth-swallowers here.0
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TailWindHome wrote:I'm confused. Does the Pope hate Nazis or love Nazis?
It seems that he was one, but he has since said that he had his fingers crossed.
Make of that what you will.
Although it may shed a new light on him comparing atheists to Nazis.0 -
mybreakfastconsisted wrote:Ratzinger’s family had to move house several times because of their opposition to the nazis. The pope himself deserted the German army, that's why he became a POW. Too many tabloid-reading myth-swallowers here.
I think you'll find he became a POW because he was captured by the Allies.0 -
We'd only find some other stupid reason to cause exactly those same things though.Wallace1492 wrote:I would love to erradicate God and Religion from society.
Let us never forget that God and religion in all its guises has led to millons of deaths, misery, torture and hatred.0 -
suzyb wrote:
We'd only find some other stupid reason to cause exactly those same things though.Wallace1492 wrote:I would love to erradicate God and Religion from society.
Let us never forget that God and religion in all its guises has led to millons of deaths, misery, torture and hatred.
Like, cycling! :-)0 -
Shimano or campag? Helmet or cap? Let the hybrid wars begingtvlusso wrote:suzyb wrote:
We'd only find some other stupid reason to cause exactly those same things though.Wallace1492 wrote:I would love to erradicate God and Religion from society.
Let us never forget that God and religion in all its guises has led to millons of deaths, misery, torture and hatred.
Like, cycling! :-)0 -
Greg66 wrote:mybreakfastconsisted wrote:Ratzinger’s family had to move house several times because of their opposition to the nazis. The pope himself deserted the German army, that's why he became a POW. Too many tabloid-reading myth-swallowers here.
I think you'll find he became a POW because he was captured by the Allies.
Both right. He deserted, and as a soldier, when captured was taken prisnor. To put it in context, tens of thousands were deserting at this time, as the allies were closing in. Ratz deserting a sinking ship and all that...."Encyclopaedia is a fetish for very small bicycles"0 -
Greg66 wrote:TailWindHome wrote:I'm confused. Does the Pope hate Nazis or love Nazis?
It seems that he was one, but he has since said that he had his fingers crossed.
.
Fearless iconoclast, or gratuitously offensive twat?
You decide.
Never did get an answer, I assume you would have stood up to the nazis, knowing it could have meant your family and neighbours would have been killed? Spend some time thinking about your children being tortured in front of you and the decision becomes less straightforward, do you agree?0 -
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Greg66 wrote:TailWindHome wrote:I'm confused. Does the Pope hate Nazis or love Nazis?
It seems that he was one, but he has since said that he had his fingers crossed.
Make of that what you will.
Although it may shed a new light on him comparing atheists to Nazis.
A Nazi is (was) by definition a member of the "German National Socialist Party" which Ratzinger never was. He therefore was not a Nazi, so your statement is utterly wrong.0 -
Wallace1492 wrote:Greg66 wrote:mybreakfastconsisted wrote:Ratzinger’s family had to move house several times because of their opposition to the nazis. The pope himself deserted the German army, that's why he became a POW. Too many tabloid-reading myth-swallowers here.
I think you'll find he became a POW because he was captured by the Allies.
Both right. He deserted, and as a soldier, when captured was taken prisnor. To put it in context, tens of thousands were deserting at this time, as the allies were closing in. Ratz deserting a sinking ship and all that....
The Ratzingers' opposition to nazism stretched back to before the war.0 -
mybreakfastconsisted wrote:Never did get an answer, I assume you would have stood up to the nazis, knowing it could have meant your family and neighbours would have been killed? Spend some time thinking about your children being tortured in front of you and the decision becomes less straightforward, do you agree?
I would have got me and my family out of Germany in the mid 1930s, by when it was bloody plain to see where the wind was blowing. And then I would have been prepared to join up with the Allied armies and go to war.
But the premise of your question is misplaced. You see, the comparison between what I would have done and what the Pope did do doesn't really illuminate one's view of the Pope. Because I'm not the leader of a major world religion. That's kind of a big difference. Do you agree?
And now for your turn. This was my question:Well, look at it this way. If you'd been a British soldier in 1944, and you'd come across him in battle, what would you have said he was?
Answer please.0 -
Should the Pope be arrested under Godwin's Law?“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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"Well, look at it this way. If you'd been a British soldier in 1944, and you'd come across him in battle, what would you have said he was? "
I would never have joined the war, I would have emigrated to South America in the mid 30s when I saw what way the wind was blowing.
Both of us can avoid giving a straight answer.
Your lies about the pope are ignorant and offensive, pack it in you colossal bellend.0 -
jamesco wrote:A Nazi is (was) by definition a member of the "German National Socialist Party" which Ratzinger never was. He therefore was not a Nazi, so your statement is utterly wrong
The Hitler Youth was a paramilitary organization of the Nazi Party: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth0 -
mybreakfastconsisted wrote:
Your lies about the pope are ignorant and offensive, pack it in you colossal bellend.
Christianity in one beautiful sentencePurveyor of sonic doom
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Greg66 wrote:I would have got me and my family out of Germany in the mid 1930s, by when it was bloody plain to see where the wind was blowing. And then I would have been prepared to join up with the Allied armies and go to war.
So, did you volunteer to fight for the Kosovans or Bosniaks against Milosevic? How about for the Georgians against Putin's invasion? There's a nasty war happening in the Congo now that's killed millions of people which maybe you can do something about.
It's easy to say that if you were German you would have fought the Nazis, and there were certainly incredibly brave Germans who did, but the fact that a teenage Ratzinger didn't try to assassinate Hitler is not a stain on his character.
I'm agnostic & still find these attacks on the man spiteful - he's the head of the Catholic church, for god''s sake, you don't have to make up things to criticise him for!0
