Lets have, why do people hate the public sector?

Paulie W

andyrm wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

And that's your interpretation of what happened with the Miners? Ok, carry on

Yes. And clearly I am not the only one. Plagiarised from Wikipedia:

"Coal was a nationalised industry managed by the National Coal Board (NCB) under Ian MacGregor and, as in most of Europe, was heavily subsidised. A number of mines ("pits") in the United Kingdom were profitable and remained open after the strike, several of which still operate (including one in Warwickshire and four in Yorkshire).[1] There were also a number of mines that were unprofitable and the government wanted to close. The viability of many of these mines was called into question, but the government closed many before reports were collated, instead of using temporary offers of increased redundancy pay to encourage miners into voting in favour of pit closures. In addition, the government insisted that in order to make the mines profitable they required efficiency improvements to be achieved by means of increased mechanisation and thus job cuts. Many unions resisted this."

To summarise: "The mines were inneficient and loss making. The goverment wanted to cut the loss making ones and make them profitable or be shut down (logical business sense IMHO). The unrealistic unions got the easily swayed workers all wound up. They went on strike, lost public support, refused to work harder to reach commercial viability and so got shut down because people in foreign countries were prepared to work harder for less money for the same job".

Market forces. We're in a global economy where everything should be competitive eeither on cost or value proposition. If people aren't prepared to compete for work/survival, they can't expect to have a god given right to be supported by anyone, be that their company if in the private sector or the taxpayer if in the public sector.

I cant even begin to tell you how wide of the mark you are. You quote Wikipedia then provide a summary that misses some of even that 'venerable' source's key points. I dont know how old you are - maybe you were alive and not shitting in your pants when the Miners Strike happened; maybe you're in your early 20s or younger in which case you're astonishing ingnorance is a bit more understandable. What is less forgiveable is that you still feel able to pontificate about something of which you apparently have no understanding (beyond a quick look at an internet encyclopaedia site). As I said earlier, carry on...

MonkeyMonster

lost_in_thought

Is that a mega shark fighting a giant octopus?

I don't see how the octopus could ever win that one.

simonaspinall

you (and no doubt others over the 18 pages) do a massive disservice to people in reality on wages equal or in many cases lower than Private sector counterparts for similar levels of responsibility and status. I have lost money from my wage in real terms every year for over a decade, and these are Union negotiated pay settlements under a Labour administration. Even in the boom times when my bro and best mate were picking up inflation busting rises in private sector, I was getting 1.5-2.5% (inflation at ~3% & underlying = more) on the basis that the government wanted to keep public sector wages in check - I was sick as a chip to see the MP's getting 10's of % and judges, high ranking whitehall mandarins too, but trust me that sort of wage inflation never filtered down to the other 99.8% of us.

just on the e.g. of first class train tickets - any proof for what you say or is it blind prejudice? I've travelled 1st class once in my life - at my own expense & on holiday the carriage was full of businessmen. In the cops there is a hierachy of expenses you can claim for travel, overnighters etc and it is only the very senior people (=Executive level in private industry) that get 1st class perks much the same level of private sector that would be going 1st class and getting meals paid for. At grunt level I would be expected to drive @20p/mile with a car full if possible or if lucky get a standard ticket bought as early and cheaply as possible and can claim ~£6 for an evening meal, anything more I'm expected to pay myself. This is representative of the vast majority of public sector workers, not the occasional chief executive or special advisor that someone has been stupid enough to bring in on the money and perks you allude to and who is resented just as much by the public sector shop floor as by the private sector.

Reading the redundancy thread on cake stop. every single person on that thread that hasgiven an example has got a better redundancy package than mine is set at (less than 1 week pay for each year worked ) hardly excessive and bloated is it?

on the tax fiasco thread theres a poster talking about expecting an HMRC letter because of their their expenses, paid health care, employer paid pension scheme etc - wanna bet if they work in public or private sector? (dunno maybe they'll swing by and tell us - but I'd bet a hell of a lot more on those being perks in a private company than in a public role)

The top end of both does well for itself but the bottom end doesnt do nearly so well and doesn't deserve to be lumped in with such blind misinformed prejudice as has come out on bits of this thread

There will always be exceptions in both sectors. Referring back to my earlier posts of SMEs - There are many workers in there who never had the private sector perks in the first place (like employees in a big corporate may), nor the wages and have a lot of responsibility in their organisation - In fact my only perk is one paid meal a year at xmas...seriously! We've had 3 years of wage freezes as any rise would be linked to turnover - Ie results!

Public sector worker of course deserve to be paid a fair wage but when are wages linked to results at all levels? Again as you said - The top levels seem to get all the bonuses and perks and the lower employees in both sectors don't get the same rewards. My housemate is a public sector accounts clerk who by her own admission is a data entry office worker, 13 years in the job and pretty much has been in the same office doing the same job. As a council worker she gets union protection, a good pension, flexi-time, higher wages than myself (degree level and post-grad marketer)! She has the mindset of 'i've been here longest so I should be promoted' and moaning because she didn't get a pay rise this year when she should've. Poor dear.

My gf's housemate is an NHS IT worker - Not an exec or anything - He gets the 1st class train from leeds to london regularly to attend meetings. These meetings could be done over the phone, but no, he's dragged to london to sit in a meeting room for an hour and then back to leeds.

I know I am starting to sound like a complete dickhead Tory, but surely you must recognise some of the inequalities of the public vs. private sector. One major difference is - Whatever a private sector employee gets paid is the business of the shareholders and customers. The public sector should be accountable for the public money that gets spent and thanks to FOI requests theres been a lot more transparency on what's happened.

tailwindhome

_Brun_

Possible repost, like I give a toss.

rolf_f

simonaspinall wrote:

My gf's housemate is an NHS IT worker - Not an exec or anything - He gets the 1st class train from leeds to london regularly to attend meetings. These meetings could be done over the phone, but no, he's dragged to london to sit in a meeting room for an hour and then back to leeds.

I know I am starting to sound like a complete dickhead Tory, but surely you must recognise some of the inequalities of the public vs. private sector.

NHS = not representative of public sector as a whole (rather more generously waged, funded etc). I'm certainly not allowed first class travel even if it is cheaper than second (which it can be) - not many in our organisation are allowed to go first.

FWIW, I go to some trouble to split my train tickets into sections (generally a split at Peterborough on a Leeds London train reduces the cost by £100) because I think it is important not to be careless with taxpayers money. A lot of my colleagues do the same. I wonder how many private sector folk do. Or do they just wander off into first?

greg66_tri_v2.0

TailWindHome wrote:

Oooow.

Is that out on blu-ray?

greg66_tri_v2.0

lost_in_thought wrote:

Is that a mega shark fighting a giant octopus?

I don't see how the octopus could ever win that one.

Two ways: (a) the octopus uses its limbs to hold the shark out of water; or (b) the octopus grabs 8 laser guns and slices the shark into sashimi.

simonaspinall

Rolf F wrote:

simonaspinall wrote:

My gf's housemate is an NHS IT worker - Not an exec or anything - He gets the 1st class train from leeds to london regularly to attend meetings. These meetings could be done over the phone, but no, he's dragged to london to sit in a meeting room for an hour and then back to leeds.

I know I am starting to sound like a complete dickhead Tory, but surely you must recognise some of the inequalities of the public vs. private sector.

NHS = not representative of public sector as a whole (rather more generously waged, funded etc). I'm certainly not allowed first class travel even if it is cheaper than second (which it can be) - not many in our organisation are allowed to go first.

FWIW, I go to some trouble to split my train tickets into sections (generally a split at Peterborough on a Leeds London train reduces the cost by £100) because I think it is important not to be careless with taxpayers money. A lot of my colleagues do the same. I wonder how many private sector folk do. Or do they just wander off into first?

Well, not representative as in the have about 1/6 of the total state sector employed by them. Of course all the NHS don't travel on trains and even standard class is expensive, but it's the mindset of 'let's have a meeting' rather than 'this is the info and how can we get it to this employee - ah yes a phone call'. The train ticket didn't need to exist in the first place! As for what the private sector do - I'll reiterate my point - It does not cost the tax payer anything, even if they took a stretched hummer all the way to London and back!

lost_in_thought

Greg66 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Is that a mega shark fighting a giant octopus?

I don't see how the octopus could ever win that one.

Two ways: (a) the octopus uses its limbs to hold the shark out of water; or (b) the octopus grabs 8 laser guns and slices the shark into sashimi.

How on earth would an octopus manage to hold a shark out of water?

OTOH, mmmmmmm sashimi.

andyrm

simonaspinall wrote:

There will always be exceptions in both sectors. Referring back to my earlier posts of SMEs - There are many workers in there who never had the private sector perks in the first place (like employees in a big corporate may), nor the wages and have a lot of responsibility in their organisation - In fact my only perk is one paid meal a year at xmas...seriously! We've had 3 years of wage freezes as any rise would be linked to turnover - Ie results!

Public sector worker of course deserve to be paid a fair wage but when are wages linked to results at all levels? Again as you said - The top levels seem to get all the bonuses and perks and the lower employees in both sectors don't get the same rewards. My housemate is a public sector accounts clerk who by her own admission is a data entry office worker, 13 years in the job and pretty much has been in the same office doing the same job. As a council worker she gets union protection, a good pension, flexi-time, higher wages than myself (degree level and post-grad marketer)! She has the mindset of 'i've been here longest so I should be promoted' and moaning because she didn't get a pay rise this year when she should've. Poor dear.

My gf's housemate is an NHS IT worker - Not an exec or anything - He gets the 1st class train from leeds to london regularly to attend meetings. These meetings could be done over the phone, but no, he's dragged to london to sit in a meeting room for an hour and then back to leeds.

I know I am starting to sound like a complete dickhead Tory, but surely you must recognise some of the inequalities of the public vs. private sector. One major difference is - Whatever a private sector employee gets paid is the business of the shareholders and customers. The public sector should be accountable for the public money that gets spent and thanks to FOI requests theres been a lot more transparency on what's happened.

I've said it before - please please please can you stop putting forward rational and thought out arguments, this is supposed to be an internet forum after all!!

Makes me laugh reading this whole thing with fresh eyes. The real anger and indignance seems to be coming from the public sector workers because their precious "rights" are being eroded and they're going to have to work harder or get out.

We had a meeting the other week where our MD told us all about the forthcoming VAT and inflationary rises and that he would like to be able to help us all next year but a 4-5% pay rise is a sh*t load of money for a SME. In order for us to get the cost of living rise which many public sector workers feel they are entitled to, we need to work that much harder this year (for no extra money) to boost revenues to allow for the pay rises. The fundamental mindset difference is that we, unlike many public sector workers, can see that the money has to come from somewhere - it doesn't just magically appear.

I must admit I am at a loss as to why public sector workers feel they are above having to justify their existence like the rest of us. Promotion just for time served over merit seems to be a normal expectation for them too. If I got into power (which doubtless the trade unionists would never allow!!) one of the first things I would implement would be performance monitoring at every level in the public service, with pay commensurate to KPIs rather than bands that only serve to create laziness and demarcation of roles. It's all about "not my role", "my poor overworked 42 hour week with no lunchbreak" rather than getting the job done on time, on budget and right first time. Maybe the lackadaisical attitude within the sector comes from the fact that nobody's financial or employment survival is dictated by their success rate......?

MonkeyMonster

lost_in_thought wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Is that a mega shark fighting a giant octopus?

I don't see how the octopus could ever win that one.

Two ways: (a) the octopus uses its limbs to hold the shark out of water; or (b) the octopus grabs 8 laser guns and slices the shark into sashimi.

How on earth would an octopus manage to hold a shark out of water?

OTOH, mmmmmmm sashimi.

Godzilla could cook some rice (with his super flame breath) for Nigi as well

greg66_tri_v2.0

lost_in_thought wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Is that a mega shark fighting a giant octopus?

I don't see how the octopus could ever win that one.

Two ways: (a) the octopus uses its limbs to hold the shark out of water; or (b) the octopus grabs 8 laser guns and slices the shark into sashimi.

How on earth would an octopus manage to hold a shark out of water?

OTOH, mmmmmmm sashimi.

Like this



The octopus is able to float right there, in that exact position, without moving, forever. It's like a really well-known octo-skill.

DonDaddyD

Its the discretion of the NHS Trust to decide the method of transport not all Trusts advocate the use of First Class.

I've never had my transport paid for me through choice, with the exception of the AGM when I needed a van to carry promo-materials to the venue and so I and a couple of colleagues got a NHS contracted minicab.

Also, not all jobs are results driven. In the case of the NHS as a reaction to the targets/results driven demands it measures a hell of a lot, some useful and some not so useful. I'd argue that the effect has both some positive and negative elements.

I don't think that all front line staff interacting with vulnerable people should feel they have to meet targets when said targets may diminish the qualty and time spent with each person. Also, not all people react and perform under the pressure of having to meet cold numerical targets. Most, if not all, jobs in the NHS have key performance indicators based on measuring the quality and effectivness of the job.

lost_in_thought

Greg66 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Is that a mega shark fighting a giant octopus?

I don't see how the octopus could ever win that one.

Two ways: (a) the octopus uses its limbs to hold the shark out of water; or (b) the octopus grabs 8 laser guns and slices the shark into sashimi.

How on earth would an octopus manage to hold a shark out of water?

OTOH, mmmmmmm sashimi.

Like this



The octopus is able to float right there, in that exact position, without moving, forever. It's like a really well-known octo-skill.

That's amazing. Whilst supporting the weight of a megashark, without the use of any of its tentacles.

Octopi must be buoyant motherf****rs.

greg66_tri_v2.0

lost_in_thought wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Is that a mega shark fighting a giant octopus?

I don't see how the octopus could ever win that one.

Two ways: (a) the octopus uses its limbs to hold the shark out of water; or (b) the octopus grabs 8 laser guns and slices the shark into sashimi.

How on earth would an octopus manage to hold a shark out of water?

OTOH, mmmmmmm sashimi.

Like this



The octopus is able to float right there, in that exact position, without moving, forever. It's like a really well-known octo-skill.

That's amazing. Whilst supporting the weight of a megashark, without the use of any of its tentacles.

Octopi must be buoyant motherf****rs.

And that, my dear, was the last thought to cross megashark's mind.

cee

surely the octopus would just have to turn the shark upside down...thus putting it into a tonic immobility state.....

then it could get jiggy with its beak......wait...octopuses do have beaks right??

greg66_tri_v2.0

cee wrote:

surely the octopus would just have to turn the shark upside down...thus putting it into a tonic immobility state.....

then it could get jiggy with its beak......wait...octopuses do have beaks right??

Oh, for goodness sake! Do try to keep up at the back!

TWH made it clear several pages ago that the turning upside down trick doesn't work on great whites.

Tsk, tsk...

MonkeyMonster

Greg66 wrote:

cee wrote:

surely the octopus would just have to turn the shark upside down...thus putting it into a tonic immobility state.....

then it could get jiggy with its beak......wait...octopuses do have beaks right??

Oh, for goodness sake! Do try to keep up at the back!

TWH made it clear several pages ago that the turning upside down trick doesn't work on great whites.

Tsk, tsk...

TSK + 1

But yes they have beaks.

lost_in_thought

Greg66 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Octopi must be buoyant motherf****rs.

And that, my dear, was the last thought to cross megashark's mind.

That would be an excellent way to end the imminent megashark vs giant octopus blockbuster.

PBo

rjsterry wrote:

PBo wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

where's the fighintg talk? I was thinking of bringing in Mecha-Streisand

this thread's no fun any more... go back to slagging each other off

And I call up -Robin Smith of the Cure

Bzzzt. Robert Smith, not Robin

I was obviously referring to the South African born England batsman...not many people know that he went on to hide his identity and front a band......why else do you think he applied his lipstick so badly......??? eh? Still, he could have done a bit more with the name change...

andyrm

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also, not all jobs are results driven. In the case of the NHS as a reaction to the targets/results driven demands it measures a hell of a lot, some useful and some not so useful. I'd argue that the effect has both some positive and negative elements.

I don't think that all front line staff interacting with vulnerable people should feel they have to meet targets when said targets may diminish the qualty and time spent with each person. Also, not all people react and perform under the pressure of having to meet cold numerical targets. Most, if not all, jobs in the NHS have key performance indicators based on measuring the quality and effectivness of the job.

EVERYTHING is measurable. Whether it’s first time fixes over the phone, to time of call, to cost saving per project by efficiency saving, every single aspect of any role can be quantified and I am at a loss as to why public sector workers shouldn’t have to conform to the same measurable the rest of us do. So they don’t like being measured, graded and reported back on? Then leave. It’s that simple. We work in an information age where everything can be measured and I don’t see anything wrong with that – instead of being scared of measuring every stage of something, it can be used productively. If I analyse every stage of my sales & business development cycle (which I do every month), I can spot things that are and aren’t working and so strive to improve them. Information and measuring performance is a powerful thing to be embraced – so why are people so scared of it other than a fear it will show up their own shortcomings?

WesternWay

lost_in_thought wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Octopi must be buoyant motherf****rs.

And that, my dear, was the last thought to cross megashark's mind.

That would be an excellent way to end the imminent megashark vs giant octopus blockbuster.

but how would you start Megashark vs Giant Octopus: The Revenge?

asprilla

Just because things can be measured doesn't mean they should (speaking as a six sigma black belt; the epitomie of process measurement). One of the biggest critisisms is of the NHS in particular is that frontline staff spend more time completeing reports than they shuld and that meeting targets is placed above primary care.

I've worked in private sector jobs where bonuses were target based. The targets were easily met providing you didn't care about quality. Quess what?

greg66_tri_v2.0

andyrm wrote:

EVERYTHING is measurable.

Such as, for example, position and momentum of a particle at a time, t?

MonkeyMonster

WesternWay wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

Octopi must be buoyant motherf****rs.

And that, my dear, was the last thought to cross megashark's mind.

That would be an excellent way to end the imminent megashark vs giant octopus blockbuster.

but how would you start Megashark vs Giant Octopus: The Revenge?

At the film ends, the camera pans down and you catch a glimps of an egg case... Start of the next one is up to you

PBo

_Brun_ wrote:

Possible repost, like I give a toss.

I actually thought that said "supergay or versus the volcano"

Supergay would win by bitchslappin' his opponents to death.

simonaspinall

Asprilla wrote:

Just because things can be measured doesn't mean they should (speaking as a six sigma black belt; the epitomie of process measurement). One of the biggest critisisms is of the NHS in particular is that frontline staff spend more time completeing reports than they shuld and that meeting targets is placed above primary care.

I've worked in private sector jobs where bonuses were target based. The targets were easily met providing you didn't care about quality. Quess what?

So if this impacts on short, medium or long-term profitability or service the customer goes elsewhere or shareholders sell their shares and move their investment or the employee gets fired (or all of these).

If the public sector is the only provider of a certain service - Sanitation, NHS (can't afford to go private), Education, Road laying and so on then you can't change it - There's no choice there like a private sector business. Every stage of and complaints process is designed to passify with non-answers and fobbing off the annoying person who decided to point out something was going wrong. The same may also occur when writing to the complaints dept of Vodafone, Orange, British Gas et al but you at least have consumer choice with this!

If they are not meeting their targets it's not as if they are going to fire a load of nurses, police officers, teachers etc. based purely on results (rather than budget constraints). How many teachers have been dismissed from poor performance in how many decades compared to sales people, business managers, directors and so on..?

PBo

Who would win between:


Hiphopopotamus vs. Rhymenoceros

"my lyrics are bottomless...
.........................
.........................
..........................????"