NY Times - Cyclists are said to back claims Armstrong doped

RichN95.

Fox, the voice piece of ubermensch right-wing America, weighs in with a pretty harsh and uncomplimentary comment piece. And somewhere near Morzine a self-righteous belief system collapses under the weight its own bigoted stupidity.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Lance-Armstrong-worst-cheat-ever-if-doping-claims-are-true-080610

afx237vi

RichN95 wrote:

Fox, the voice piece of ubermensch right-wing America, weighs in with a pretty harsh and uncomplimentary comment piece. And somewhere near Morzine a self-righteous belief system collapses under the weight its own bigoted stupidity.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Lance-Armstrong-worst-cheat-ever-if-doping-claims-are-true-080610

Well, until he scrolls down far enough to read the comments section, anyway.

RichN95.

afx237vi wrote:

Well, until he scrolls down far enough to read the comments section, anyway.

But then if he cares to look at the poll result (67% to LA at the time of writing)....... It's all swings and roundabouts. It's almost as if the US is a country where different people have different attitudes.

cajun_cyclist

RichN95 wrote:

Fox, the voice piece of ubermensch right-wing America, weighs in with a pretty harsh and uncomplimentary comment piece. And somewhere near Morzine a self-righteous belief system collapses under the weight its own bigoted stupidity.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Lance-Armstrong-worst-cheat-ever-if-doping-claims-are-true-080610

Actually, in this case, Fox Sports, Fox Soccer are going to be "autonomous" to Fox News which is what you are probably referring to.

Take Fox Soccer which I will watch from time to time, one of the key hosts is Bobby MacMahon, he's from Scotland, seemed to make his name after migrating to Canada http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_McMahon . Will this make him part of the "allegedly" right wing apparatus of Fox??

Look at 20th Century Fox, actually a famous movie company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Century_Fox that has been making movies forever. 'Planet of the Apes'?? Reflective of the right wing? 'Sound of Music'? 'Rocky Horror Picture show'? 'The Simpsons'? 'White men can't jump?'' Thank you for confirming, you don't know what you are talking about and the gazillion posts we read a day confirm that.

Possibly best to watch 'Green Street' rather than such frivolous and political opinions in a cycling forum.

RichN95.

cajun_cyclist wrote:

Actually, in this case, Fox Sports, Fox Soccer are going to be "autonomous" to Fox News which is what you are probably referring to.

Take Fox Soccer which I will watch from time to time, one of the key hosts is Bobby MacMahon, he's from Scotland, seemed to make his name after migrating to Canada http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_McMahon . Will this make him part of the "allegedly" right wing apparatus of Fox??

Look at 20th Century Fox, actually a famous movie company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Century_Fox that has been making movies forever. 'Planet of the Apes'?? Reflective of the right wing? 'Sound of Music'? 'Rocky Horror Picture show'? 'The Simpsons'? 'White men can't jump?'' Thank you for confirming, you don't know what you are talking about and the gazillion posts we read a day confirm that.

Possibly best to watch 'Green Street' rather than such frivolous and political opinions in a cycling forum.

Ah, noobs, bless.

Look, you've been around less than a month so you probably don't realise that my post was meant for one poster in particular, rather than serious comment. Hang around for a while and you'll learn a little bit about who's who and the dynamics of the forum.

But your post, while misguided, was full of enthusiasm, much like a Vacansoleil attack. So give yourself a hearty pat on the back. Well done.


(I don't like being patronising, but you really didn't get my point and went on the attack without comprehending the type of poster I am)

cajun_cyclist

Rich:

Just seeing if you were awake!!

BikingBernie

RichN95 wrote:

cajun_cyclist wrote:

Thank you for confirming, you don't know what you are talking about and the gazillion posts we read a day confirm that.

Look, you've been around less than a month so you probably don't realise that my post was meant for one poster in particular, rather than serious comment...you really didn't get my point and went on the attack without comprehending the type of poster I am.

In other words, 'I know that I was talking shite, but I was just trying to get a rise out of BikingBernie, mainly because, although I don't like what he says, I can't muster a convincing counter-argument so have to resort to personal attacks'.

afx237vi is right about the posts though. As one might expect there are the usual ill-informed rants attacking 'the French', claiming Armstrong is the 'most tested athlete ever' and so one. However, there are a few that go to show that not every American is a brainwashed, flag-waving fuckwit. Some show real insight. For example: 'This is capitalism at it's best, make a buck however you can, lie, cheat, screw your neighbor, then sit back and enjoy your life.'

blazing_saddles

afx237vi wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Fox, the voice piece of ubermensch right-wing America, weighs in with a pretty harsh and uncomplimentary comment piece. And somewhere near Morzine a self-righteous belief system collapses under the weight its own bigoted stupidity.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/Lance-Armstrong-worst-cheat-ever-if-doping-claims-are-true-080610

Well, until he scrolls down far enough to read the comments section, anyway.

Oooof!
They don't half give the author a serious tongue lashing. I can't ever remember seeing the most tested athlete myth being used so often. As for those pesky frogs.
One comment even appears to accuse Jeff Novitsky of being French!

RichN95 wrote:

But then if he cares to look at the poll result (67% to LA at the time of writing)....... It's all swings and roundabouts. It's almost as if the US is a country where different people have different attitudes.

So it's OK for the US fans to have a self-righteous belief system collapses under the weight its own bigoted stupidity, because of a poll result?

Isn't it just conflicting opinion for both ends of the spectrum?

No_Ta_Doctor

Oh I particularly liked this comment (and typo/Freudian slip) on the the Fox article:

Lance has been drugged through the the MUD(THE FRENCH MUD,NOT USA MUD) for years because they just don't want a American to win the TDF

BikingBernie

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Oooof! They don't half give the author a serious tongue lashing. I can't ever remember seeing the most tested athlete myth being used so often. As for those pesky frogs. One comment even appears to accuse Jeff Novitsky of being French!

I wish I had bookmarked it now, but I recall reading one comment on a US site a while ago where the poster, his brain befuddled by anti-French (at heart meaning anti-collectivist, anti-egalitarian and anti-'statist') corporate brainwashing, was seriously trying to argue that Greg Lemond had become a French national, which was why he was 'lying' about Armstrong.

BikingBernie

RichN95 wrote:

if he cares to look at the poll result (67% to LA at the time of writing)....... It's all swings and roundabouts. It's almost as if the US is a country where different people have different attitudes.

But, unless you adopt a hard-line relativistic approach, this is not about 'attitudes', it is about what is true and what is not true, and in order to determine that the rational thing to do is to take into account all the available evidence. Given this it would probably be much more accurate to say that the article and comments indicate that the US is a country with more than its fair share of flag-waving, French-hating, irrational fuckwits.

The poll means very little either, given that it is talking about a hypothetical situation and asks people to compare Armstrong with some baseball player.

iainf72

BikingBernie wrote:

But, unless you adopt a hard-line relativistic approach, this is not about 'attitudes', it is about what is true and what is not true, and in order to determine that the rational thing to do is to take into account all the available evidence. Given this it would probably be much more accurate to say that the article and comments indicate that the US is a country with more than its fair share of flag-waving, French-hating, irrational fuckwits.

I'm getting confused.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... egins.html

Does this mean that 79% of the French population are racists?

No_Ta_Doctor

iainf72 wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

But, unless you adopt a hard-line relativistic approach, this is not about 'attitudes', it is about what is true and what is not true, and in order to determine that the rational thing to do is to take into account all the available evidence. Given this it would probably be much more accurate to say that the article and comments indicate that the US is a country with more than its fair share of flag-waving, French-hating, irrational fuckwits.

I'm getting confused.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... egins.html

Does this mean that 79% of the French population are racists?

I'm very confused, but if I'm reading this right, I think it means that 79% of the French population are American, ride for Radioshack, or are actually Lance Armstrong.

I need a beer already.

BikingBernie

iainf72 wrote:

I'm getting confused.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... egins.html

Does this mean that 79% of the French population are racists?

I would say that around the same proportion of French people are intrinsically racist as in any other country. It just so happens that in the constant tension between the reactionary right and more egalitarian left that characterises French politics, the right, under Sarkozy currently have the upper hand.

Of course, the situation in France is being mirrored right across Europe, including in the UK:

The British government is trying to do away with Gypsies. It's scandalous, but nobody is watching, so nobody will help."

"It's seen as the last bastion of racism. It's not socially acceptable to express racism against ethnic minorities, but against Gypsies and travellers it's fine,"

...Hostility from local communities is high. The Equality and Human Rights Commission Scotland is so concerned at the way many local newspapers are presenting issues with Gypsies, and the racist remarks left on their noticeboards, that it is contacting media outlets "to remind them that moderation of online comment boards is crucial in order to prevent the incitement of racial hatred".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/ ... t-backlash

Less than a month in power and the new government has already reversed policies giving incentives to councils to develop land for Gypsy and Traveller communities. As a result, all bids to fund new sites and refurbish existing ones across England and Wales have been cancelled.

Eric Pickles, the communities and local government secretary, has said he wants to revive elements of the Conservative's 1994 Criminal Justice and Public Order Act that turns trespass from a civil into a criminal offence. This will mean that Travellers who refuse to move from land that is not privately owned by them could be arrested by police or forcibly evicted.

...Local confrontations over so-called bank holiday landgrabs are already taking place across the country. The conflicts, says Bowers, are a "taste of things to come".

In Meriden, Warwickshire, for example, around 600 residents launched a spontaneous campaign on the early May bank holiday, blockading roads and forming human barricades to stop a Gypsy community building a caravan site on the greenbelt near their village.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/ ... t-backlash

The European Union was today accused of "turning a blind eye" as countries across Europe carried out a wave of expulsions and introduced new legislation targeting the Roma.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... man-rights

BikingBernie

No tA Doctor wrote:

I'm very confused, but if I'm reading this right, I think it means that 79% of the French population are American, ride for Radioshack, or are actually Lance Armstrong.

I am confused as to why anyone should see some sort of logical equivalence between the sort of fuckwittery that sees disciples of Armstrong argue that the Novitsky investigation is part of a French conspiracy against the USA, and the sort of attitudes that see people object to travellers setting up a camp on their doorstep.

No_Ta_Doctor

BikingBernie wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

I'm very confused, but if I'm reading this right, I think it means that 79% of the French population are American, ride for Radioshack, or are actually Lance Armstrong.

I am confused as to why anyone should see some sort of logical equivalence between the sort of fuckwittery that sees disciples of Armstrong argue that the Novitsky investigation is part of a French conspiracy against the USA, and the sort of attitudes that see people object to travellers setting up a camp on their doorstep.

I'm confused as to why anyone would take an obviously lightweight surrealist attempt at humour and try to extrapolate actual political thinking from it.

BikingBernie

No tA Doctor wrote:

I'm confused as to why anyone would take an obviously lightweight surrealist attempt at humour and try to extrapolate actual political thinking from it.

You might have trying to be humorous, but I don't think that Iain was...

iainf72

BikingBernie wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

I'm confused as to why anyone would take an obviously lightweight surrealist attempt at humour and try to extrapolate actual political thinking from it.

You might have trying to be humorous, but I don't think that Iain was...

Groan, I think I might ask Lance is he'll forgive me for annoying him and welcome me back to the fold. If being in the ALB means I'm associated with Bernie and his attitudes....

Here's another one for you

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ist-cliche

Shock, "The French" are just like everyone else around the world.

BikingBernie

iainf72 wrote:

Shock, "The French" are just like everyone else around the world.

As individuals, of course they are, and as I have said many times, I have nothing against Americans as individuals. People are people, the world over.

However, there is a world of difference between the collective, egalitarian values that are traditionally associated with France, and the individualistic, corporatist values that are associated with the US. The conflict between the two are where my comments are directed. Doubtless many people in France are more in tune with the right-wing individualism of the US than the spirit of 1789 or 1966, and the current French Government are firmly on the right. However, this doesn't mean that there aren't many people who still value the old ideals of 'Liberty, egality and fraternity'. At least in France there is open debate about the relative merit of these contrasting positions, not something that can be said about the US or UK ('Tina' as the Tories used to chant). I suppose to be fair it also has to be said that Americans as individuals cannot be 'blamed' for the blinkered views many of them have, given the power of the media and the corporate machine that tells them what to think and 'manufactures their consent'.

That said, whilst I accept that stupidity is not constrained by national boundaries, I would stand by my argument that anyone who thinks that the Novitsky investigation is part of a French conspiracy against the USA is a fuckwit.

No_Ta_Doctor

And yet America has still given us Miles Davis, National Parks, Aldo Leopold, Thoreau, Velvet Underground, Muhammed Ali, Doonesbury, Bob Dylan, Springsteen and a black president.....

All a bit simplistic, generalisations are dangerous.

BikingBernie

No tA Doctor wrote:

And yet America has still given us Miles Davis, National Parks, Aldo Leopold, Thoreau, Velvet Underground, Muhammed Ali, Doonesbury, Bob Dylan, Springsteen and a black president...

What people achieve as individuals often has little relationship to the values of the society they live in. One could say much the same about any society. 'Well people criticise the feudalism of the Middle Ages, the public executions for stealing half a loaf of bread and so on, but it produced some great artists', or even 'Well, I know a lot of people are critical of the Nazi era, but it produced some outstanding scientists'.

No tA Doctor wrote:

All a bit simplistic, generalisations are dangerous.

Including that one, no doubt.

RichN95.

Blazing Saddles wrote:

So it's OK for the US fans to have a self-righteous belief system collapses under the weight its own bigoted stupidity, because of a poll result?

Isn't it just conflicting opinion for both ends of the spectrum?

Dogmatic extremeists are as bad as each other, regardless of which end of the spectrum they're at.

Abdoujaparov

Generalisations are useful, no, vital. Grass is green, sky is blue etc.

The point is that it's morally ok to extrapolate a judgement about a collectiive of people from lots of judgement about individual people from that group e.g. if you meet lots of people from the US who are proud to be American and very few who are not proud to be American, you can reasonable surmise that people from the US tend to be proud of being American.

What's not ok, and this is the important bit, is to extrapolate a judgement about an individual from a judgement about a group of people.

BB, this is what you've done - used a a judgement on Americans to reach a conclusion on one particular person, Lance Armstrong.

No_Ta_Doctor

BikingBernie wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

And yet America has still given us Miles Davis, National Parks, Aldo Leopold, Thoreau, Velvet Underground, Muhammed Ali, Doonesbury, Bob Dylan, Springsteen and a black president.....

All a bit simplistic, generalisations are dangerous.

What people achieve as individuals often has little relationship to the values of the society they live in...

I think I can easily make the case that the achievements of those above are deeply embedded in American culture. They all come from within traditions of American thought and culture and relate back to it. It's far too easy to point at ignorant rednecks (of which I'm sure there are vast hordes) and say "that's America for you" while ignoring the Martin Luther Kings and Chomskys. Likewise, it's far too easy to romanticise the French enlightenment thinkers, cherry pick the good bits (ignoring the "not in front of the servants" bit of it) and say "That's French culture".

Personally I'm mortified by the thought that someone might take a few comments on the Daily Mail or Sun websites and attribute them to being representative of British culture.

calvjones

Can we please take this crap to Cakestop?

FransJacques

iainf72 wrote:

Trek playing nice

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/n ... YHeadlines

Cor, everyone is taking this witchhunt a bit seriously...

This is the States buddy, not some bumbling, stuttering policeman from a nice country town like in Last of the Summer Wine.

Thy call you in, your lawyers tell you to show up ASAP, you bend over and take it. End of. These guys don't fuck around. [Can I say fuck on this forum? What word replaces fuck?]

FransJacques

"fark" apparently

colint

$h1t stop would be more appropriate

BikingBernie

No tA Doctor wrote:

It's far too easy to point at ignorant rednecks (of which I'm sure there are vast hordes) and say "that's America for you" while ignoring the Martin Luther Kings and Chomskys.

Except, of course, that people like King and Chomsky were / are essentially 'outsiders', criticising the dominant culture exemplified by the likes of Ron Paul, Rush Limbaugh and the rest, not to mention the millions of ordinary Americans who support what they stand for. Chomsky, as much as I admire him and agree with much of what he says, is not in tune with what most American’s think. If he was perhaps he would have a chance of becoming President, but that isn’t ever going to happen! In fact there are probably a lot more 'Freepers' and 'Tea Party' activists in the USA than there are supporters of Chomsky.

It is also worth pointing out that people like Martin Luther King rose to the position they did not because of something intrinsically positive about American values, but because they were fighting its injustices and prejudices.

I would also argue that The Daily Mail and The Sun do represent, as the biggest selling papers in Britain, if not a majority viewpoint, certainly a very popular one. (And other papers such as the Express are no different). In fact Paul Dacre has argued that the views expressed in the Mail do represent the dominant set of 'values' in Britain. He has also argued that the BBC is guilty of 'left wing bias' because, in his view, it is somewhere to the left of the 'dominant' view his paper represents, a viewpoint he feels that the BBC should also reflect. OK, so Dacre would say that, but he has a point.

BikingBernie

Abdoujaparov wrote:

What's not ok, and this is the important bit, is to extrapolate a judgement about an individual from a judgement about a group of people. BB, this is what you've done - used a a judgement on Americans to reach a conclusion on one particular person, Lance Armstrong.

No I haven't, I said that Armstrong exemplifies certain values are are central to the American Dream. He himself has played on this, as with his 'I'm on my bike busting my ass six hours a day' and 'Pain is temporary. Quitting lasts forever' lines. Also, there is no need to make any assumptions based on generalisations about Armstrong's determination to win at all costs, one only needs to look at him as an individual!