Weapons...Do you carry anything?

captainfly

There are UK legal defence sprays, such as stoppa-red or other bouncer prays some of which have odour markers an use smart water, this will only cause a distraction at the time but will mark out the thief for days after.

As has been said before carring weapons is against the law, but legitimate tools and locks make good improvised weapons if needed, never brandish something if you do not know how to use it and prepared to do so.
The law and what the police would have you belive are two separate things, you are only not allowed to carry specific prohibited weapons anything else requires a good reason, if you are legitmately clearing/building/maintaining a trail or just carring an entrenching tool to keep the greatoutdoors tidy it is fine.

I just resent the fact that it seems fine for people to use violence to steal from you but you must not fight back. I never use weapons as fists, feet, knees and elbow combined with plenty of shouting have served me well in the past, but it is the little scrotes who use knives because they can't fight that are a worry, it would be nice to use something to keep them futher away.

What you must not do is carry a knife and then claim you wrestled if off the chav you just stabbed that would wrong.

bails87

captainfly wrote:

I just resent the fact that it seems fine for people to use violence to steal from you but you must not fight back.

You can fight back, and the law says you're allowed to.

captainfly wrote:

it would be nice to use something to keep them futher away.

I still don't see what you could use. If you can see a situation developing while they're far enough away that you've got time to get a weapon out, then turn around and leave. If you're riding past and they grab you and tell you to give them the bike then you screwed if you're relying on a machete in your backpack for defence. Likewise, if you get barged off as you ride past, you'll be on the floor while they ride off with your bike and a 'weapon' is no good.

Buckled_Rims

.blitz wrote:

All these posts about 'backing off' and 'not getting involved' really grip my sh*t. This sort of attitude is what's wrong with society. I have had a go on more than one occasion and one time I was proud to receive a letter of commendation from Warwickshire's Chief Constable.

Anyone who tries to frighten or intimidate innocent citizens is an animal and deserves to be treated as such. If it means taking a gun to a knife fight, so be it.

+1

The problem I see it is if you meekly give your bike to a mugger when he demands it, he'll expect his next target to meekly give way as well. This is encouraging societies undesirables to expect everyone should be a soft target.

I'd rather the crap kicked out of me then give up my crappy, rusty commuter. I'll fight if I have too, but would rather not.

.blitz

bails: of course self-preservation is important but sometimes it's too easy to turn the other cheek.

What would you do if you were sitting on a bench in the park and a group of yobs pushed your kid off his bike?

What would you do if a whip-wielding pikey killed a cygnet in front of some mums & kids?

What would you do if a drunken driver forced you off the road?

Remonstrate with them? Use strong language? F*ck that. These people need to be taught a lesson.

.blitz

Buckled_Rims wrote:

The problem I see it is if you meekly give your bike to a mugger when he demands it, he'll expect his next target to meekly give way as well. This is encouraging societies undesirables to expect everyone should be a soft target.

Exactly. Somebody lets them get away with it and next time it could be you.

scotto

I think tooling up on nightrides is ok, especially if you ride where rural crime goes on in darkness but if I did I certainly wouldn't admit to it on a forum !

But it's a last resort, as mentioned legs and feet are the best tools you have.

Remember though crime against the stranger is very rare, I know cos they say it on crimewatch.

Sounds like what we have here is more fear of crime which is common.

cavegiant

Mynameisdann wrote:

cavegiant wrote:

Ok peeps I cannot stress this enough, do not start fighting chavs, get your bike inusred and understand that if you do get mugged you are going to get a brand new bike, this years model and the chance to change all those things that bug you about your current ride.

If you pull a weapon you are likely to get hurt badly, or potentially worse, hurt someone else badly. Think about it really, do you actually want to hurt someone bad, you may think you want to, but really think the situation through.

For the military trained guy above, be VERY careful.

One of my dads friends was a retired officer from the SAS. He was walking along the beach with his wife and a gang of thugs had a go. Needless to say, SAS, the thugs lost badly.
He got prosecuted and spent many years in jail for using his military training without warning the other people. So a retired guy walking on a beech with his wife get attacked. His wife had to spend years alone while he was in jail, was it worth it?
He didn't even kill any of them (though not far off from my understanding)!

The law is biased, and it is not in your favour.
Oh forgot to add the thugs were armed, with hindsight, bet he would gave given up his wallet and a bit of dignity.

On a sidepoint, most chavs are unfit, weak with no idea how to fight. There will always be the occasional one who does mma or boxing seriously as a hobby. My 3rd Dan Judo instructor learnt the hard way not to underestimate your opponent. I may have been wearing a white belt, doesn't mean I can't feint a fall and transition to a triange choke. youtube if you don't know the move, used my cyclists legs to shut off the blood supply to his brain, WIN!

are you sure you wasnt watching Con air

=-)


"You can fight back, and the law says you're allowed to. "

Unless you have recieved any martial arts training, then you are classified as armed and it is a whole different story.

-liam-

Problem with a mugging for instance, is that generally speaking, you get 10 bells kicked out of you before they take your belongings, and then probably a kicking after too.
The best form of defence is clearly just avoiding the confrontation by choosing a different route, or being able to fight back if you are confronted because i'm not sure you have a choice.

Think i might get some stud's sewn into the knuckles of my gloves

butcher of bakersfield

cavegiant wrote:

"You can fight back, and the law says you're allowed to. "

Unless you have recieved any martial arts training, then you are classified as armed and it is a whole different story.

What about if you're 7'4" and built like an outdoor toilet? What a fucking ridiculous law.

I have no problems with people fighting back. I agree that it's just part of the balance of the societal eco-system. Something that has been tipped in our civilised climate.

But most of us aren't fighters. If you like nothing better than the buzz of a good punch-up, go for it. I can't think of a better scenario to let your aggression out. For the rest of us wimps - going out tooled up, with an added, and false sense of security can get you into some very nasty situations that you really don't know how to handle.

tsenior

Scotto probably has it right

"Sounds like what we have here is more fear of crime which is common"

no comments from people who have acually had a serious attempt at having their bike taken from them, few second (probably 3rd/4th) hand stories..probably pretty rare if you dont engage in really risky beghaviour.

alot of the comments seem to be from would-be vigilanties OR fantisists, hard to tell which via the internet :roll:

most of the kids are harmless, no matter what the daily mail tells you, the serious crims have bigger fish to fry/less risky means to get what they want. yeah you get verbal off crackheads and the like and they might try something on, worth getting in a fight over when you can easily avoid it: no.

stepping in to assist someone in trouble, retribution and self defence are different matters and may well be worth the risk depending on the circumstances: this was not what the OP asked though was it?

bails87

.blitz wrote:

bails: of course self-preservation is important but sometimes it's too easy to turn the other cheek.

What would you do if you were sitting on a bench in the park and a group of yobs pushed your kid off his bike?

Ok, first off, we were talking about taking property and whether or not to take out possibly illegal weapons. Not talking about unprovoked attacks on children. I honestly don't know what I'd do. And I'm sure the response from people with kids would be to kick the shit out of them, and I'd sympathise with that viewpoint, but I'm not going to pretend to have a parent's mindset.

What would you do if a whip-wielding pikey killed a cygnet in front of some mums & kids?

Sorry, but

What would you do if a drunken driver forced you off the road?

Then I'd probably call the police, what am I going to do, chase after him and somehow get him out of the car, without making the situation more dangerous?!

Remonstrate with them? Use strong language? F*ck that. These people need to be taught a lesson.

What would you do in those situations? Not "teach them a lesson", I mean what would you actually do?

Let's go back to what we were talking about originally though. If you've got a weapon in your backpack, how do you end up in a situation where you're going to be able to get the weapon out, but you cant just turn around and get away? If you know someone's going to attack you then get away from them.

I should point out, I'm not against giving someone attacking you a good kicking. But, as an example, one way it would be something I'd grudgingly start is if I was riding in a group. Say the lead rider gets a bit ahead, and you come round the corner with three or four buddies to find your mate being attacked by a chav. All of a sudden, the odds are very much against the chav. So go for it. But when it's one v one, or 1+ vs me, I don't want to fight, I'm just going to lose anyway, I might as well make it painless if they're serious about getting the bike.

My bike isn't worth dying for. End of. I've got insurance.

Exactly. Somebody lets them get away with it and next time it could be you.

Right, so I shouldn't give them my bike easily, I should wait for them to stab, seriously injure, or possibly kill me, because if I don't they might try to steal my bike next time? :? That makes no sense.

I'd rather a mugger expected a peaceful theft, flashed a knife, asked for the bike and got it. It's better than assuming I'm going to fight so I get a knife in the chest 'just in case'.

And finally....

Unless you have recieved any martial arts training, then you are classified as armed and it is a whole different story.

I call bollocks on that! I remember a judge said something about a boxer "using his fists as a weapon" whilst summing up a case once. But I think that's a bit of an urban legend. Happy to be proved wrong though

supersonic

I'll ask my brother about some of this laws. He's a copper and is well versed in them. He took me through a whole load of scenarios and the outcomes, and that in some circumstances you need to tell the opponent your intentions.

cavegiant

Call bollocks all you like; ask any person trained in martial arts what they get told on their first lesson.

"If getting into a fight you have to tell the person you are a trained fighter,"

I think it is a stupid law, but it wouldn't be the first stupid law.

So you are surrounded by thugs, you just want to get out of there, but so you don't get prosecuted you have to tell them you know kung fu! friking ridiculous, that would get you hit.

Stupidest law I am aware of, but still there.

I didn't study this area of law, so don't know the terms, but 'concealed weapon if you don't tell' is the phrase thrown around.

carbonfiend

+1 for avoidance I live in what we joke as 'the ghetto' its the 2nd poorest borough in Greater London yet is only 15mins from the edge of Epping Forest. I just follow a number of strict rules to avoid anybody being given the chance to rob me which generally involve avoidance at various levels (driving to forest, checkin who is around before I get off bike, staying away from certain parts at specific times and constantly lookin who is around). Its a shame that its come to this and maybe its just London but I figure it serves me well to just always think somebody is gonna try to rob the bike so do everything possible to cut down the risk. At the weekend when I ride up and back from forest I will do a circle of the streets if I see youths too close to my house or if leaving wait till they gone, I get my keys out so I dont have to fumble about outside the house and will jump lights as well if gangs are hangin to close to a set I am stopped at. Pulling weapons just isnt an option round here you could and probably will be killed - all for a bike :?

bails87

cavegiant wrote:

Call bollocks all you like; ask any person trained in martial arts what they get told on their first lesson.

"If getting into a fight you have to tell the person you are a trained fighter,"

I think it is a stupid law, but it wouldn't be the first stupid law.

So you are surrounded by thugs, you just want to get out of there, but so you don't get prosecuted you have to tell them you know kung fu! friking ridiculous, that would get you hit.

Stupidest law I am aware of, but still there.

I didn't study this area of law, so don't know the terms, but 'concealed weapon if you don't tell' is the phrase thrown around.

Right, so where's the law?

"Something my kung fu instructor said" isn't the same thing as a genuine criminal offence. Like I said, I'm happy to be proved wrong.

As it happens, I went to a few judo classes when I was about 10. Would I have to tell any would be assailants that I'm about to rip out their windpipe before I do it?

How would there be any proof that you'd committed the offence anyway. Would be muggers word against the would be victim isn't much evidence.

bails87

Taken from:
http://www.wikilaw3k.org/forum/Law-Enfo ... 349710.htm

So possibly unreliable, I'm willing to admit that.

In the UK there is no such law as assault with a deadly weapon! Also, hands, feet and other parts of the body can NEVER amount to an offensive weapon no matter what your training. Weapons are "manufactured items either created, adapted or intended to be used to cause injury"

You do not need a licence to learn martiual arts. You do not need to warn people about your martial arts training before they attack you. "£20 a year Martial Arts insurance" covers injuries sustained during training at the venue and covers your instructors back more than yours! It has nothing to do with what goes on outside the dojo and does not in any way have anything to do with the laws of assault. Nor is it mentioned in the Offences Against the Person act 1861 (where most assault offences originate). Take that Taekwondo boy!

The only time that martial arts training becomes an issue is when you start comparing "impact factors" between attacker and defender when justifying the amount of reasonable force you used to arrest someone or when defending yourself ie. "The guy was 7 feet tall, aggresive and I knew he had martial arts training. Therefore I felt I had to use more force to subdue him"

To answer your question the charge you would face would depend wholly upon your intent and the level of injury caused. And nothing else!!!!

S. 39 Assault (Common Assault) - a reckless or intentional assault

S. 47 Assault (Actual Bodily Harm) - As above but substantial injuries are caused (such as a deep cut, a minor fracture, unconsciousness)

S. 20 Assault (Wounding) - As above but serious injuries are caused, although you did not mean to cause those injuries (broken legs, stab wounds, deep cuts requiring multiple stitches, severe permanent scarring). An example is a single punch to the face that results in a broken jaw and fractured skull from the fall.

S.18 Assaul (GBH with intent) - As per wounding but you meant to cause serious injuries. Most attacks with weapons are S18 becasue stabbing somebody really only has one intention.

Manslaughter - A reckless or intentional assault that leads to death. the difference between this and murder is you did not intend to kill or seriously injure the victim

Murder - unlawful killing whereby you meant to kill or seriously injure the victim.

The only way martial arts fits in here is with the "Intent" part. For example, you punch somebody to the neck and kill them. If the victim died then usually this would end up as manslaughter charge as it is difficult to show that a single punch was intended to seriously injure. But if the prosectution could show that you aimed for their throat because you know - through your Martial Arts training - that this can collapse the wind pipe and suffocate the victim then it may instead be a Murder charge. It is easier to show this punch was intended to seriously injure or kill, which is all the intent required for murder.

In terms of sentencing then a judge *may* perhaps bear in mind martial arts training when a person has been convicted of any of the above assaults. Especially if the victim had no chance of fighting back becasue of the martial arts training.

If you get attacked yourself and use MA to defend yourself I wouldn't worry too much about charges being brought against yourself so long as you don't go overboard. Most MA teach "self defence " and do not teach you to go further than that. Those that do really are encourahging their stidents to break the law if they get into a fight. Kicking or striking a person whilst they are on the ground, or whilst unconscious, is rarely justifyable as self defence and is one of the indicators that a judge should consider imprisonment when handing out a sentence regardless of a defendants training.

To give you a real life example in the application of some fo the above - I dealt with a Ju-Jutsu instructor arrested for assaulting his students (he broke a 9 year-olds ribs and hit another with a stick for disobedience). During conversation he tried to explain to me that if someone points a finger at you in a threatening manner you are legally allowed to snap it off and then punch him in the neck (as per above fatal example). Needless to say this guy was not correct in his statement. He was bailed and faield to attend court. When we caught up with him again tried to fight to resist arrest and we used his training (and mindset) as justification for breaking his wrist during the struggle. Ultimately he went to prison, not for using martial arts but for the fact he was in a position of authority and the victims were much smaller. We used his martial arts training to help us when he made a complaint against us

Apologies for the huuuuge copy and paste job!

I agree with this:

There's a lot of myhts around the use of Martial Arts, most of them started by those who pratice them to make themselves feel important and better than the rest

blister pus

I have a trichorder, phaser (set to stun), a vulcan death grip and some plastic pointy ears. and fuck anyone that tangles with me

stubs

I love threads like this when a bunch wimpy keyboard warriors start going on about martial arts death grips and hunting knives and how they are going to attack a group of thugs singlehanded if they are threatened.

You are a bunch of wimpy middle class soft as shite wannabee hard men and you are going to die if you try any of that macho Chuck Norris crap.

I knew the man in this article http://www.formbytimes.co.uk/news/formby-news/2010/07/29/man-dies-after-formby-pub-brawl-100252-26955528/ nice guy but he never backed down from a bit of aggro now his wife is a widow and his young daughter will never get to properly know her dad.

Dont talk a load of sh1t you cant back up if you get in this situation give them the fucking bike and walk away whilst counting your blessings

Anonymous

there are some right hardnuts in this thread, i am worried about meeting any of them :roll:

people are correct in as much as you can use physical violence to defend yourself, you can stop an assailant from continuing to batter you by hitting them back. at the point you have stopped them, if you continue to fight with your assailant, your defending has stopped and your attacking has started.

its a bit of a bizarre way to think about it but it is what it is. for example, you can hit someone who breaks into your home if you feel threatened or are about to be attacked, but the moment that person turns to leave or attempts to turn to leave, he is no longer a threat and your defence turns into attack.

using violence is a very difficult thing to be disciplined with and for that reason avoidance is the best technique. im not certain it matters how hard you think you are, more of them invariably means you will lose in a fight, its not like the movies where everyone takes it in turns to hit you, you get jumped and battered, that is more like real life.

carying a weapon may make you feel safe but try and think why, is it because you would be tempted to brandish it to scare you would be assailants? or is it because you would be able to use it? either way there is a huge difference between finding a weapon like a brick on the ground, picking it up in the heat of the moment and hitting someoen with it compared to carrying a weapon which for all intents and purposes you intend to use to "defnd" yourself by using it against an assailant.

the second scenario could well count as a premeditated attack and this would not be favourable for you.

carrying a weapon is retarded. if you could possibly turn around and leave a situation then no amount of violence is going to wash as that is the first option anyone who is threatened should take.

stubs

What Sheep said + millions.

-liam-

Sheepsteeth.

I agree completely.

I thought about the knife. I know all about the stat's with regards who actually end's up getting hurt but i thought seriously for a minute that, put in a situation where i was threatened, i would be able to wave this thing around to deter anyone. Clearly, this wouldn't be the case. I'm not trained, i've clearly got no experience in such a tense situation and in all likely hood i would end up as another statistic with his own knife buried in his stomach.

It is interesting listening to other views though which is why i asked the question.

I'm no spring chicken. I'm 36 with 3 kids so you'd assume i'd know better. I did wonder what the younger chaps might say as you could easily assume that the issue of people carrying weapons is very much a young persons problem and not just when out on your bike.

Not sure how many would actually admit up to it. I think more people than are admitting on here carry something.

hyperman

laughing my head off reading this...."i'm a big guy"...."i know martial arts"....what a load of sh ite..in my experience the ones that shout off about being hard as nails aren't....well i wouldn't have a problem fighting off a group off 20+ yoofs, all i need is my trusty laptop....cos i am....a keyboard warrior....aaaarrrghhhh!!!!

TheNorthernTrain

I carry one, but thats just because its on my leatherman type jobby, and would never think about using it. And anyway, it's buried so far down in my rucksack that even if i wanted to use it i wouldn't have chance.

jpstar

I have a leatherman type tool. but like north-sure its in a tin inside a zip up pocket, in a zip up bag. I do know martial arts, but I wouldn't try and use them unless it was an absolute last resort, and chances are if there were more than 2 I'd wimp out and leg it or shout abuse as they ran off to make me feel better. Besides, I don't think my bike is worth an absolute kicking for, I'd rather be able to walk away with no bike than be lying on the floor injured with no bike.

Northwind

cavegiant wrote:

Call bollocks all you like; ask any person trained in martial arts what they get told on their first lesson.

"If getting into a fight you have to tell the person you are a trained fighter,"

As "a person trained in martial arts" I call bollocks, never heard anything of the sort from any school. Not saying no instructors will say it, because some of them are probably just as clueless.

As's been pointed out, it's about intent and capability- whether it's a martial art, military training or boxing or whatever- and you use that to **** someone up in an unreasonable manner, that's an offence, in just the same way as if you have big heavy shoes and you use them to **** someone up in an unresaonable manner. The key part is "unreasonable". If a heavyweight boxer gets in a fight in the street and punches someone into a coma they're going to be in trouble, because they should know their ability and use it more appropriately. It'd be fine for me to hit someone as hard as I can because I punch like a granny.

DaveHudson

Sheepsteeth is spot on as usual.

Personally I carry my own defence system, Commonly known as fear induced flatulence with the high risk of a mobile "dirty protest" system being released at the same time.

Nothing wrong with walking away from a confrontation. Means they have to walk through my stench to get to me.

bails87

DaveHudson wrote:

Sheepsteeth is spot on as usual.

Personally I carry my own defence system, Commonly known as fear induced flatulence with the high risk of a mobile "dirty protest" system being released at the same time.

Nothing wrong with walking away from a confrontation. Means they have to walk through my stench to get to me.

Brilliant!

Anonymous

bails87 wrote:

DaveHudson wrote:

Sheepsteeth is spot on as usual.

Personally I carry my own defence system, Commonly known as fear induced flatulence with the high risk of a mobile "dirty protest" system being released at the same time.

Nothing wrong with walking away from a confrontation. Means they have to walk through my stench to get to me.

Brilliant!

not only do i agree with your opinion, i completely love your defence system. i am intending to dirty protest the next time i end up in any trouble at all.

Briggo

Just use the force on the fckers and turn them against each other, no doubt they're weak minded.

kenan

just ask "fancy a bum"