TdF Stage 17 *Spoilers*

iainf72

Ben6899 wrote:

I watch as much racing as possible, but missed a lot of this year's Giro thanks to work commitments (ironic considering yesterday's news). The stalemates arise in the Tour as a result of riders aiming their whole race season around it... they're on top form or tend to be. I'm not educating here (I know you know that), just making the observation.

I think we agree, in a way

If you can, have a look at the Zoncalon stage from the Giro. It was very much a wearing down, the best guys together but then you got the payback of Basso being better. The stage yesterday could have been similar but it lacked a climax.

And I will say I thought the Mende stage was very good, the stage in the Alps where Bert and Andy ended up dropping the others was good (because it changed the race)

mididoctors

Kléber wrote:

I've watched both and found them both to be very good races. They always come down to a few moments.

The bar was set so high by this year's Giro, that was an amazing race. But the Tour, well I've found it enjoyable. It's just a shame the GC result has been so predictable but it's still been a good duel.

that's my take as well predictable as far as GC is concerned but decent enough


the shack vs caisse team GC thing shut down a lot of racing in the final two weeks..

only when the shack went on the offensive did the peloton explode on stage 15..perhaps armstrong falling to pieces in the alps removed a dynamic?

tactically it was quite interesting not because it was unpredictable but because it was complex but still predictable... the race within race clockwork had its own beauty to it

Pross

To me the easiest way of making the racing more "exciting" in the mountains is to get the ITT out of the way early in the race that way everyone knows how much they need to claw back. OK it could work in reverse and a rider has already got a big enough lead that they only have to defend in the mountains but it's worth a try. On top of that a TTT is essential IMO as it means you have to balance your domestiques. That said I thought yesterday's stage was generally very good with the initial question of whether the break would stay away and would Sastre bridge. Andy's attack fairly early on the Tourmalet and Bertie's counter attack added to the excitement. i was disappointed at the time that Andy didn't race past Bertie when he got back from the attack but with hindsight he probably couldn't. The only real disappointment for me was that they didn't fight for the stage win.

PS can you all stop going on about how hard the Mortirollo is please as I am going up it next year at the start of a ride that goes on to include the Gavia and Stelvio (twice), I'd rather hear that it's a gentle drag

Pross

StefanP wrote:

EBH beats Wiggins up the Tourmalet :roll:

Yeah, don't let the fact that EBH was in a break that had an 8 minute lead over Wiggins on the penultimate climb get in the way of a good anti-Wiggo rant

Ben6899

iainf72 wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

I watch as much racing as possible, but missed a lot of this year's Giro thanks to work commitments (ironic considering yesterday's news). The stalemates arise in the Tour as a result of riders aiming their whole race season around it... they're on top form or tend to be. I'm not educating here (I know you know that), just making the observation.

I think we agree, in a way

If you can, have a look at the Zoncalon stage from the Giro. It was very much a wearing down, the best guys together but then you got the payback of Basso being better. The stage yesterday could have been similar but it lacked a climax.

And I will say I thought the Mende stage was very good, the stage in the Alps where Bert and Andy ended up dropping the others was good (because it changed the race)

I saw the Zoncalon stage (wouldn't let work dictate that much!) and was saying exactly the same to my younger brother who doesn't follow cycling... "look how Basso (I had to say what colour he was wearing!) is sat and powering away while Evans is stood on the pedals trying to get as much power through them as possible..."

mroli

Pross wrote:

Yeah, don't let the fact that EBH was in a break that had an 8 minute lead over Wiggins on the penultimate climb get in the way of a good anti-Wiggo rant

its ok - if he fails to win the TT, they'll be out again - yesterday's performance and what he said clearly indicates that's what he is going all out for.

Pross

Hope so, he's my PTP pick. If he fails in the TT I'll be joining the Wiggins haters

takethehighroad

Pross wrote:

To me the easiest way of making the racing more "exciting" in the mountains is to get the ITT out of the way early in the race that way everyone knows how much they need to claw back. OK it could work in reverse and a rider has already got a big enough lead that they only have to defend in the mountains but it's worth a try. On top of that a TTT is essential IMO as it means you have to balance your domestiques.

You mean like they had last year, one of the most boring TDFs for a while?

Pross

I thought the ITT was late on in last year's Tour :?

Abdoujaparov

I've watched both the Giro and the TdF for quite a few years years now (even went to last year's Giro) and I marginally prefer the Tour. Objectively the racing is often better at the Giro, but it doesn't attract the best riders so there's not as much at stake.

I also like that a lot of my friends get into cycling when the Tour is on - a bunch of us take afternoons off and watch it with some beers. Because it's much more famous, more people can relate to the Tour, get caught up in it and share the experience.

gabriel959

Its like the World Cup...

plectrum

Blazing Saddles wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

No. And to see the top two riders in the sport compete like that was brilliant. Both knew that if they eased at all then they would be dropped.

Shall we regress to the days of disco pills and ridiculous ascent times?

No, of course not. I just didn't think it was *that* interesting. Did you watch the Giro at all?

If Cadel had been Contador, everyone would be running their hands through their hair wailing about wheel sucking.

This debate is ongoing, elsewhere.
It seems that those who watch only the Tour think it has been a brilliant epic,
while those who saw the Giro, find it predictable, certainly tactics wise.
Different benchmarks, different conclusion.

Two things unfortunately happened:

Cavendish got his bars tangled and fell over just before that sprint in the early stages. If this hadn't happened the Green jersey would still be open for challenge.

Contador screwed Schleck with the mechanical and if not we would still be slightly unsure who would win the GC where as now only a miracle will prevent Contador.

This both comes down to bad luck.

The start this year was fantastic, cobbles made an excellent addition really breaking up the field early on.

Chavanel's stage wins were both superb.

The mountain stages were a bit boring but Vinokourov at least made them a bit more interesting with his performances as super-d and his stage win.

Giro was fantastic but I have enjoyed this tour too.

iainf72

plectrum wrote:

The start this year was fantastic, cobbles made an excellent addition really breaking up the field early on.
Chavanel's stage wins were both superb.

Interesting that you mention those stages, but ultimately the first of Chavenels victories was lucky because everyone stopped racing. And if they hadn't, Thor probably would've won the stage, Andy would've been out of contention and Menchov would've be in a very strong position.

andyp

Hushovd wouldn't have gotten over the Rosier with the front group if they'd been racing.

Mettan

I'd like to see them climb some steep ramps - every tom/dick/harry in Northern England is going up 17-25 % ramps regularly - the Pros could obviously do it with more ease again (obviously) - but we rarely see them do it.... - who's good, who's not so good at 25 % - be very interesting to see - assuming it didn't increase the risk of injury (which is a possibility) or people falling off (narrow road), would be nice to see how the pros go up and recover over 25 %. A whole aspect of riding currently seems to be missing from the Tour.

plectrum

iainf72

Fair enough he still roded out front but the second victory was great, especially after suffering on route to the alps and losing the yellow. To win it back was gutsy.

Everyone had to stop when riders fell because of bike oil. Weatheris one thing but oil on the road is too much like wacky racers. Almost topped by the damn sheep on the road yesterday!

Ben6899

Mettan wrote:

... would be nice to see how the pros go up and recover over 25 %...

We need next year's TdF Depart to be Fordingbridge and they can tackle Blissford Hill! Might be a bit cramped, mind, and the donkies at the top might get in the way!

FJS

Mettan wrote:

I'd like to see them climb some steep ramps - every tom/dick/harry in Northern England is going up 17-25 % ramps regularly - the Pros could obviously do it with more ease again (obviously) - but we rarely see them do it.... - who's good, who's not so good at 25 % - be very interesting to see - assuming it didn't increase the risk of injury (which is a possibility) or people falling off (narrow road), would be nice to see how the pros go up and recover over 25 %. A whole aspect of riding currently seems to be missing from the Tour.

Do you watch any cycling outside the Tour de France? plenty of that stuff elsewhere -

Mettan

FJS wrote:

Mettan wrote:

I'd like to see them climb some steep ramps - every tom/dick/harry in Northern England is going up 17-25 % ramps regularly - the Pros could obviously do it with more ease again (obviously) - but we rarely see them do it.... - who's good, who's not so good at 25 % - be very interesting to see - assuming it didn't increase the risk of injury (which is a possibility) or people falling off (narrow road), would be nice to see how the pros go up and recover over 25 %. A whole aspect of riding currently seems to be missing from the Tour.

Do you watch any cycling outside the Tour de France? plenty of that stuff elsewhere -

I'd suspect if they could find some ramps in France it'd liven up aspects of the Tour. Just imho though.

FJS

Mettan wrote:

FJS wrote:

Mettan wrote:

I'd like to see them climb some steep ramps - every tom/dick/harry in Northern England is going up 17-25 % ramps regularly - the Pros could obviously do it with more ease again (obviously) - but we rarely see them do it.... - who's good, who's not so good at 25 % - be very interesting to see - assuming it didn't increase the risk of injury (which is a possibility) or people falling off (narrow road), would be nice to see how the pros go up and recover over 25 %. A whole aspect of riding currently seems to be missing from the Tour.

Do you watch any cycling outside the Tour de France? plenty of that stuff elsewhere -

I'd suspect if they could find some ramps in France it'd liven up aspects of the Tour. Just imho though.

Agreed - just saying that if you want to know how pros deal with such gradients, watch the Vuelta, Giro, Tour of Basque Country, Tirreno, many of the Spring classics, etc.

France seems less blessed with super-steep climbs, although having the TdF go over the Grand Colombier would be nice....

Mettan

FJS wrote:

Mettan wrote:

FJS wrote:

Mettan wrote:

I'd like to see them climb some steep ramps - every tom/dick/harry in Northern England is going up 17-25 % ramps regularly - the Pros could obviously do it with more ease again (obviously) - but we rarely see them do it.... - who's good, who's not so good at 25 % - be very interesting to see - assuming it didn't increase the risk of injury (which is a possibility) or people falling off (narrow road), would be nice to see how the pros go up and recover over 25 %. A whole aspect of riding currently seems to be missing from the Tour.

Do you watch any cycling outside the Tour de France? plenty of that stuff elsewhere -

I'd suspect if they could find some ramps in France it'd liven up aspects of the Tour. Just imho though.

Agreed - just saying that if you want to know how pros deal with such gradients, watch the Vuelta, Giro, Tour of Basque Country, Tirreno, many of the Spring classics, etc.

France seems less blessed with super-steep climbs, although having the TdF go over the Grand Colombier would be nice....

I saw them falling off/walking on the Tirreno last year - it was narrow though - a strange sight all the same - but added drama. Agreed on the Colombier.

Abdoujaparov

Just checked out the Grand Colombier - what a beast. Will have to give that a go one day.

The tour has been up some steep ones in its time, although they've tended to be pretty short. Seem to remember one near Sallanches (near Chamonix) that averages 13 per cent, possibly 14...

They couldn't do it anymore though with the size of the caravan etc

paulcuthbert

Pross wrote:

I thought the ITT was late on in last year's Tour :?

There were 2 last year. Monaco was Stage 1 - it wasn't a Prologue like this year, but a time trial stage. It was too long to be a Prologue.

And then late on at Lake Annecy was a longer time trial.

Arkibal

iainf72 wrote:

plectrum wrote:

The start this year was fantastic, cobbles made an excellent addition really breaking up the field early on.
Chavanel's stage wins were both superb.

Interesting that you mention those stages, but ultimately the first of Chavenels victories was lucky because everyone stopped racing. And if they hadn't, Thor probably would've won the stage, Andy would've been out of contention and Menchov would've be in a very strong position.

+1

knedlicky

FJS wrote:

Mettan wrote:

FJS wrote:

Mettan wrote:

I'd like to see them climb some steep ramps - every tom/dick/harry in Northern England is going up 17-25 % ramps regularly - the Pros could obviously do it with more ease again (obviously) - but we rarely see them do it.... - who's good, who's not so good at 25 % - be very interesting to see - assuming it didn't increase the risk of injury (which is a possibility) or people falling off (narrow road), would be nice to see how the pros go up and recover over 25 %. A whole aspect of riding currently seems to be missing from the Tour.

Do you watch any cycling outside the Tour de France? plenty of that stuff elsewhere -

I'd suspect if they could find some ramps in France it'd liven up aspects of the Tour. Just imho though.

Agreed - just saying that if you want to know how pros deal with such gradients, watch the Vuelta, Giro, Tour of Basque Country, Tirreno, many of the Spring classics, etc.
France seems less blessed with super-steep climbs, although having the TdF go over the Grand Colombier would be nice....

Perhaps they could do Mont du Chat, near Aix-les-Bains, with its 14%, on the same day as Grand Colombier, it’s only just down the road. Unlike the Grand Colombier, Mont du Chat was in the Tour in the past, but long ago, in the Poulidor era.

There are steep passes in France (20%) but the drawbacks are that
- some are probably too narrow for the large Tour convoy (e.g. the 4-5 really steep ones in the Vosges)
- the upper parts of the passes aren’t asphalted (e.g. in the Alps, Cormet d'Areches, near Aime, and Col du Jandri, above Les Deux Alpes)
- they are too short (e.g. the 1-2 really steep ones in the Jura) … though on the other hand, that seems not to matter in the Belgium Spring Classics

I think the Tour already includes the steepest paved passes In the Pyrenees, on average one a year - Marie-Blanque, Soudet, Péguère, Erroimendy, Bagarguy, all around 16% max.
There are short 20% stretches on the Glandon from the south and Galibier from Valloire, but I suppose those stretches hardly count in the scale of things there.