2012 Olympic MTB course

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  • njee20
    njee20 Posts: 9,613
    A 140mm travel hardtail, well that's just like an XC race bike, I assume you run 2.1" tyres too?

    There are plenty of mincers in XC racing, don't get me wrong, but I'll wager the top guys could absolutely destroy the vast majority of people on here. Still, it's easy to be fast behind a keyboard!
  • cee
    cee Posts: 4,553
    njee20 wrote:
    A 140mm travel hardtail, well that's just like an XC race bike, I assume you run 2.1" tyres too?

    There are plenty of mincers in XC racing, don't get me wrong, but I'll wager the top guys could absolutely destroy the vast majority of people on here. Still, it's easy to be fast behind a keyboard!

    apologies for my lack of information to make my last comment make sense...

    I only wanted to point out that I dont have a 5" trail bike to nurse to the tops of climbs then mash through everything on the way down...(as per your suggested)

    as for tyres...2.1 on the back...2.35 on the front...don't know if you are really interested?

    Its not quite light enough to be a full on race bike...and the fork is too long for fast climbing on steep ascents...it gets a bit vague as the terrain really steepens....

    It does love the descents though....

    I didn't assert that I would be faster than anyone....pick your battles and all that me matey.

    you seem to want to suggest I am saying something i didn't?

    I don't think that the venue is a great place to be building a track. If that differs from your opinion...tough. they are after all like ar$eholes.

    loving the sarcasm though.... :roll:
    Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.

    H.G. Wells.
  • Splottboy
    Splottboy Posts: 3,695
    My "best" Marin time was 1hr 10 mins, from Llanrwst and back, ( Cafe on stilts.)
    On a Ti hardtail, Sids, Xt etc. One of those "magical" riding days...dry, sunny, warm.

    But, best time I've heard of is Sub 45 mins, for 19 k !!!!
    This was a local amateur XC dude, apparently.

    So, what time would the Pro's do it in?
    Meaty climbs, technical descents, some steep tarmac road sections, rocky too...

    NOT a namby-pamby course in any sense of the XC word.
  • njee20
    njee20 Posts: 9,613
    I never said that you're asserting that you're faster than anyone, that's yeeha.

    However, I do stand by my claim that the top XC racers are faster downhill than most on here could ever want to be! Not just internationally either, Kenta Gallagher is pretty handy for one.

    I just find it amusing that so many people who've never raced XC, have such strong opinions about the courses and the riders! It's certainly not going to change if you whinge on a forum about it, if it's that big an issue why not let BC know?

    This venue may be utter shit, but I'll wager it won't be! And as I said very early on this thread, if you guys don't wanna go then great, makes it easier for me to get a ticket!
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    I never said I was faster, njee, I said I reckon I'm a more technically capable rider than most of the XC riders.
    i don't carry my bike over rough ground, and my idea of fun is finding something stupid, and trying to find a way up down over or off it.

    You really do seem to have a chip on your shoulder about this, are you involved in the planning of the course or something?
  • joshtp
    joshtp Posts: 3,966
    to me The Olympics (which, btw, i think are awsome) should really showcase a sport, espacialy a small sport like MTB. For this it needs to be impressive, to be impressive people have to watch it and think "no ways i could do that!" (well, most people, im not talking about al the mtbers out there...) To look that dificult, and to provide a challange worthy of being called Olympic to the athletes the cource needs to be genuinely hard. Unlike in sprinting, where the track makes little diference, MTB does need a proper track.

    Thats why i think a 3 mile loop with 2 very steep climbs and 2 steep gnarly decents is what would be ideal, it would be easy to manage, easy to broadcast and easy to build.

    However, proper geography is needed for this, somewhere with hills! I dont know the geography of SE england well, but surely the south downs would have been suitable?!?

    as it is, i think its a total Joke. It doesnt do MTB justice, its already the smallest sport in the games, and is held on the last day. We need a gnarly track, (or DH!) and some proper recognition!!!!!

    anyway, im still gona go to watch it, but i do think its a bit of a joke.

    Also i do hope we get a proper commentator, not that northern roadie guy... At beijing he was talking such crap... At one point he said "In the pits i saw a one sided fork, and it looked quite strange, dont know what it is, or what its called, but im assured its safe."

    Im sorry, but how can you commentate on the biggest event in world XC without even knowing the name of the most famous XC racing fork in history - the Canonndale Lefty.

    We need DH, Rob Warner and a Steve Peat or Gee Atherton win. That would bring it to the fore, and give us some "street cred!"
    I like bikes and stuff
  • cee
    cee Posts: 4,553
    njee20 wrote:
    I never said that you're asserting that you're faster than anyone, that's yeeha.

    However, I do stand by my claim that the top XC racers are faster downhill than most on here could ever want to be! Not just internationally either, Kenta Gallagher is pretty handy for one.

    I just find it amusing that so many people who've never raced XC, have such strong opinions about the courses and the riders! It's certainly not going to change if you whinge on a forum about it, if it's that big an issue why not let BC know?

    This venue may be utter shoot, but I'll wager it won't be! And as I said very early on this thread, if you guys don't wanna go then great, makes it easier for me to get a ticket!

    never raced xc but i have ridden with some amatuer xc racers...most of them couldn't ride a technical descent, however could sit on rollers a 80% max hr for hours...

    if bc really want to promote mountain biking..then they have to make the most of the limited mainstream tv spots it can get.

    the olympics has got to be one of the biggest...so the course should be as exciting as possible for the spectators, whilst being within the bounds of the uci guidelines.

    It has to be about more than whether it feels good to the racers....they have to make it appealing to non-specific audiences.

    I believe that 4X should be in the olympics for this reason...you can build a 4x track anywhere, is compact enough to see all the action, is exciting to watch etc....

    XC by its very nature (i.e. not held in a track, and over ground that motorbikes etc can't follow with cameras.) is never going to have the best tv coverage...DH has the same issue.

    and how could you know whether any of us have in fact said this to BC or not? Judging by a thread when essex was being discussed for the XC, there was a big thread on here....i'd be surprised if a number hadn't emailed BC...
    Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.

    H.G. Wells.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    edited July 2010
    Surprised Swinley and some of the surrounding areas have been ruled out, considering the Gorrick and various army races.

    As for it being a London event, the 2010 Winter Olympics was Vancouver and yet a lot was held at Whistler and surrounding places which are 2 or more hours away. It's only 2 to 3 miles to South Wales from London.

    Does seem to be an obsession with keeping everything in London despite better facilities elsewhere (e.g. shooting to be held at Woolwich where facilities have to be built rather than use the excellent Army ranges at Bisley, Ash, Aldershot etc).

    But anyway... Essex? !!

    I thought the idea of mountain biking was that you had something at least resembling a mountain, or a hill. Are they doing a DH event, and just how are they going to achieve that?
  • cee
    cee Posts: 4,553
    I think they should introduce a new rule....

    at National level and above....

    anyone who pushes down a descent (if they fall of half way down fair enough...but those who dismount at the top and push all the way down)...

    should be barred from racing for 3 years...

    Im sorry...but pushing down descents at that level is not on. There is no defence...if the track is too technical...the riders arn't good enough. full stop.
    Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.

    H.G. Wells.
  • njee20
    njee20 Posts: 9,613
    I believe that 4X should be in the olympics for this reason...you can build a 4x track anywhere, is compact enough to see all the action, is exciting to watch etc....

    I'd agree with that, arguably to the laypeople it's too similar to BMX, but I agree it would be a good sport to include.

    I don't have a chip on my shoulder about the Olympics, but I do about the 'XC racers can't ride bikes' thing, because it's laughable.
    anyone who pushes down a descent (if they fall of half way down fair enough...but those who dismount at the top and push all the way down)...

    I've not seen people literally getting off to push down something. If there's an obstruction partway down you get people getting off so they can continue to run rather than standing still and taking in the view, but at Elite, and even expert level, you don't get people hopping off to walk down things! And those that do are never going to win races, so what does it matter if they're enjoying themselves?
  • paul.skibum
    paul.skibum Posts: 4,068
    I think a lot of people here are wallowing in a large tub of BS.

    I have ridden with a fair few guys who road race and xc race and some of them even downhill - their technical skills in all cases are pretty damn good. But even if they are not if you had a 10 mile track with half up and half down which bit of that course in a race is going to take you the longest to complete - my guess is you are going to be spending at least 80% of your time on the climbs which means technical ability on the downhills rapidly fades in importance.

    The London Olympics is about London and its surrounds, I dont really get why Weymouth has sailing and not somewhere in the Thames estuary but ultimately building new stuff for all the events is part and parcel of it - you cant go use the Bisley firing ranges because as njee says there is no infrastructure plus I seem to recall the army uses them quite a bit.

    I watched the xc racing int he last two olympics and I watch the downhill world cups - I like them both, I am watching the TDF too - its all bikes, its all interesting in their own ways and I dont race any discipline at all.

    All you guys who seem to think the racing should be about long technical descents, that's not what xc racing is about, there are elements of it and watching that youtube vidoe of julien absolon in beijing suggests there is a moderate technical element to the descent and climbs there sure its not a massive rock garden and 4 ft drop off but then they dont want ot have to drop that6 times in the race do they on an inappropriate machine. These bikes are 20ib race bikes ffs.

    You think its going to be dull dont watch it - you probably wouldnt even if it was a CYB because its not your thing. I watch DH racing and think I could ride that terrain, sure I wouldnt be as quick but I reckon most DH courses are doable, same for XC and I still wont be as quick.
    Closet jockey wheel pimp whore.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    I'm not suggesting the courses should be about long technical descents, (that's what DH is!) I'm saying that is should reflect what mountain bikers ride, and that does include challenging terrain.
    If someone can't ride technical bits without getting off (and it does happen), then they shouldn't be racing XC at such a level. It seems the courses are made to satisfy super fit, technically inept roadies, rather than drawing in talented riders, or developing their skills.
  • Northwind
    Northwind Posts: 14,675
    cee wrote:
    remember that even in the xc world cups at fort william a few years ago, they took 'nessie' out of the loop because the riders complained it was too technical...whereas loads of 'normal' riders love the feature!

    I wouldn't do Nessie on a skinny-tyred superlight steep-angled XC bike with the seat up, to be fair.
    Uncompromising extremist
  • paul.skibum
    paul.skibum Posts: 4,068
    Northwind wrote:
    cee wrote:
    remember that even in the xc world cups at fort william a few years ago, they took 'nessie' out of the loop because the riders complained it was too technical...whereas loads of 'normal' riders love the feature!

    I wouldn't do Nessie on a skinny-tyred superlight steep-angled XC bike with the seat up, to be fair.

    That's the thing isn't it - who rides a proper race bike with the seat as high as it will go well on technical terrain? No one.

    As for representing what mountainbikers really ride - I ride a lot of bridleways in Berks and the Chilterns and I ride at Swinley - Swinley can be challenging but generally its just tight singletrack with a down or uphill flavour - fun but not all that technical.

    I fear this whole, roadies with fat tyres thing is a joke made by mountain bikers with a spare tyre.......
    Closet jockey wheel pimp whore.
  • cee
    cee Posts: 4,553
    edited July 2010
    Northwind wrote:
    cee wrote:
    remember that even in the xc world cups at fort william a few years ago, they took 'nessie' out of the loop because the riders complained it was too technical...whereas loads of 'normal' riders love the feature!

    I wouldn't do Nessie on a skinny-tyred superlight steep-angled XC bike with the seat up, to be fair.

    I rode it on my hardrock with a poo 100mm rst gila fork....

    ok...seat down...but these are flipping world class athletes!

    edit....

    and no spare tyre here....
    Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.

    H.G. Wells.
  • njee20
    njee20 Posts: 9,613
    It seems the courses are made to satisfy super fit, technically inept roadies, rather than drawing in talented riders, or developing their skills.

    There's that chip on your shoulder! Look at the top 'up and coming' riders, Billy-Joe Whenman, Ben Thomas, David Fletcher, Steve James, Grant Ferguson, Kenta Gallagher etc, they're all (well I say all, I've ridden with 5 of the 7, but I assume they are all) very very good bike handlers.
  • cee
    cee Posts: 4,553
    njee20

    I think it is a good point that the up and coming riders ARE quick descenders...

    its a fact.

    but they arn't who we are talking about here is it...

    in the same way that some of the younger current top Dh riders are pedally enough to compete at xc...

    the young guns at 16 etc...all they talk about is training....gone are the days when downhillers smoked, got p1ssed up the night before (and the morning of) a race etc....

    it is changing....for the better probably...
    Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.

    H.G. Wells.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    njee20, maybe we should agree to disagree?

    Just one last thing though, I remember when everyone rode everything, DH, trials, XC, dual slalom, and uphill sprints. The average skill level of most XC racers was fantastic back then.
  • Northwind
    Northwind Posts: 14,675
    cee wrote:
    I rode it on my hardrock with a poo 100mm rst gila fork....

    ok...seat down...but these are flipping world class athletes!

    I'd rather ride it on a hardrock tbh, as long as it had decent sticky tyres, it's pretty slippy when it's wet (which it always is it seems!). To be fair, when it was used on race routes I gather a lot of people did ride it, but others didn't and it caused congestion and crashes. Very unfair on the poor guy behind who would ride it but has to get off and climb over some damn fool or queue up for a go.

    It's out of the 10UTB route too as I guess you know, and I was so glad, considering the number of people that were getting off and pushing down the rest of the wc route there'd have been an M25-style tailback all the way from Nessie back to the car park on the first lap :lol: O noes, a rock! Dismount! Remount! Aargh, a root!
    Uncompromising extremist
  • supersonic
    supersonic Posts: 82,708
    I think it would make an interesting event for xc and dh to be combined. Maybe not the extremes of either.

    An AM race :wink:

    Generally though, a lot of XC riders have a lot of skill. I know of a few who also competed at DH in national events.
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  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    supersonic wrote:
    I think it would make an interesting event for xc and dh to be combined. Maybe not the extremes of either.
    there used to be combined events.
  • cee
    cee Posts: 4,553
    Northwind wrote:
    cee wrote:
    I rode it on my hardrock with a poo 100mm rst gila fork....

    ok...seat down...but these are flipping world class athletes!

    I'd rather ride it on a hardrock tbh, as long as it had decent sticky tyres, it's pretty slippy when it's wet (which it always is it seems!). To be fair, when it was used on race routes I gather a lot of people did ride it, but others didn't and it caused congestion and crashes. Very unfair on the poor guy behind who would ride it but has to get off and climb over some damn fool or queue up for a go.

    It's out of the 10UTB route too as I guess you know, and I was so glad, considering the number of people that were getting off and pushing down the rest of the wc route there'd have been an M25-style tailback all the way from Nessie back to the car park on the first lap :lol: O noes, a rock! Dismount! Remount! Aargh, a root!

    kirroughtree was the same...loads of folk pushed all the natural descents, even though it was all rideable even by a rider as bad as me!.....but your talking about a range of people whose first time at a fun event...from first timers up to people like joe barnes etc...(not this time..but it has been known)

    what surprised me were the number of supposed top guys pushing down them...

    thats the point though isn't it...a couple push...and everyone behind has to....
    Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.

    H.G. Wells.
  • cee
    cee Posts: 4,553
    supersonic wrote:
    I think it would make an interesting event for xc and dh to be combined. Maybe not the extremes of either.

    An AM race :wink:

    Generally though, a lot of XC riders have a lot of skill. I know of a few who also competed at DH in national events.

    really looking forward to the NoFuss Tour of Ben Nevis...point to point...no set route...but be at the checkpoints on time for the 'special stages'
    Whenever I see an adult on a bicycle, I believe in the future of the human race.

    H.G. Wells.
  • njee20
    njee20 Posts: 9,613
    njee20, maybe we should agree to disagree?

    For the sole reason that I've not ridden with you, and you're clearly not gonna relent it's probably easier.
    Just one last thing though, I remember when everyone rode everything, DH, trials, XC, dual slalom, and uphill sprints. The average skill level of most XC racers was fantastic back then.

    The average skill level now is higher than ever. People used to ride everything on the same bike because all the events were more similar.

    Watch this, yes it starts with a mincer, who appears not to get back on at the bottom, so may have a mechanical, and Paul Oldham about to get lapped, but watch Schurter and Absalon from 1:10 onwards, that's their 7th time down there, that's not slow descending, but any stretch of the imagination, not to mention the pace with which Schurter sprints off on the fireroad. If you genuinely reckon you could do a better job, then I really do doth my cap to you.
  • paul.skibum
    paul.skibum Posts: 4,068
    Yep - some pretty decent riding there and on the other video linked to that here with a guy doing a semi tail whip at 2mins in!
    Closet jockey wheel pimp whore.
  • nick1962
    nick1962 Posts: 156
    XC MTB racing looks little more than glorified cylocross racing to me. Nothing like what I consider my sport,mountain biking. XC is now like cylcocross ,something for roadies to do in winter and somewhere for bike manufaturers to advertise their bling lightweight carbon bikes and it must work well as the abundance of professional and sponsored riders can testify. Rarely a hint of "mountain" in it these days so a flat field in Essex close to London makes an ideal Olympic venue :D
    I know XC racers are fit and I know many of them have good technical skills and can handle a bike superbly on the downhills too. I've seen it in the flesh at amateur level as well as the Commonwealth games. But I have also seen far too many carrying their bikes around and down stuff that even I can manage partly due to inability but mainly to do with the fear of trashing their ligtweight race bikes on drops and rocks etc.
    If XC was made more like MTB (trail centre red and black or the technical natural trails we love ) with proper technical stuff both up and down hill ,no carrying or avoiding obstacles,places to overtake,some safer than others then the riders would need to have the skill and bottle as well as the fitness to do well. Ligtweight fragile carbon bikes with their skyhigh seatposts that abound in XC would struggle to cut it on the type of course I would love to see racing on unless the rider was at the top of his game.
    As as previously been said ,yes their would be spills but so what ?
  • njee20
    njee20 Posts: 9,613
    There's plenty of spills anyway! They're not exactly prima donnas who tiptoe down things to avoid their nice white shoes getting dirty!

    Have we done the video on Fabien Cancellara descending? Fair play to anyone who can match that, roadies can ride too!
  • nick1962
    nick1962 Posts: 156
    When I first read about the new XC course being built at Dalby it got my interest as it appeared that XC was going a bit more hardcore, a bit more MTB.The articles on the course described the obstacles and the feature writers all rode the course and gave it a thumbs up.But there were chicken runs! And as I understand it some of the" World Class" riders still got off and carried (like in the video).
    Can you imagine that in any other sport?
    "Oooh this bit's too hard so i won't do it" :oops:
    You wouldn't last 5 minutes
  • njee20
    njee20 Posts: 9,613
    They don't win, it's as simple as that!

    They're basically 'also rans' although admittedly very quick ones still. You could ride a World Cup DH race, but if you don't hit all the jumps etc you're not gonna win, it's exactly the same as XC!

    A lot more of the women walk than men, although I'm not sure what that's indicative of!
  • nick1962
    nick1962 Posts: 156
    edited July 2010
    njee20 wrote:
    They don't win, it's as simple as that!

    They're basically 'also rans' although admittedly very quick ones still. You could ride a World Cup DH race, but if you don't hit all the jumps etc you're not gonna win, it's exactly the same as XC!

    A lot more of the women walk than men, although I'm not sure what that's indicative of!

    Stretching it there a bit-Not seen too much DH but if you don't do the jump then you have to ride over it-not seen any chicken runs and definitley never seen anyone carryting a DH bike over a jump (too heavy even for non-mincing DHillers :D !)
    I think most on here agree that the current courses are not that technical at present. Make them more technical and these "also rans" would have to shape up or ship out leaving room for good technical riders to compete.......if they can lay off the beer and cake for long enough.

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