Armstrong was really good today

dennisn

iainf72 wrote:

Den - Is there something wrong with your keyboard? It seems to be producing *'s rather than e.

I hate it when the censors change the word. You'd think that they would let something like that go but........

Pokerface

This is the UK. You're allowed to say hell here. Or even go there.

calvjones

Not going to quote it all, but +1 for micron.

dennisn

Pokerface wrote:

This is the UK. You're allowed to say hell here. Or even go there.

Wasn't sure where the line was drawn. :? :?

jamlala

micron wrote:

dennisn wrote:

micron wrote:

BTW Dennis, I've just been blocked by Lance Armstrong - now whose threatened by whom?

Congratulations or you have my deepest sympathy. Whichever applies. And I honestly don't know. I'm not even sure what you've been blocked from. I can guess why, no matter what it was that you could do before and can't now.

How about a truce. You can't beat me and vice versa. I really am only interested in the reasons behind the Anti Lance mindset, but I doubt anyone is going to admit much of anything. Even after all my trying all I ever get is the same old, same old. Doper, arrogant,
egotistical, blah,blah, blah.

Thinking again about being blocked by Lance. What's the next step? Restraining order?
Hopefully you're not turning into some stalker that he has to hire a bodyguard for.

Dennis, allow me a little counter analysis - you had a bad day yesterday, tough seeing a hero on the floor, losing time, looking all too human, having so much bad luck (karma?) after so many years of apparent invincibility. Then, to add insult to injury, a lot of nasty Internet People appear to take pleasure in the fall of the idol.

Bernie makes a very salient point - perhaps Armstrong just doesn't play well to the majority of fans who were there way before 1999. Or maybe they just hate the prosletyzing fanboys and that fuelled the 'hate' - who knows which came first? There have been many, many intelligent, well reasoned posts on this forum as to why certain people (on either side) hold the positions that they do. And we all know how intractable those positions are - and should accept that people hold those positions for their own justifiable reasons. I'm endlessly fascinated by the pro-Lance mindset and acknowledge that to some he's an inspiration in their own experience of cancer, some like his aggression and egotism, some don't care that he doped he's still the best. But I'm surprised that you can't admit that there is a great deal of evidence - some circumstantial and some direct - that points to Armstrong being considerably less than the hero some others paint him as.

Me, I don't care for lying, cheating and corruption - the thought that I would either be jealous of and/or threatened by someone whose morals I simply can't find any common ground with seems a little silly. The fact that I've loved this sport since I shook Tom Simpson's hand many years ago plays some part in that - that Simpson's death wasn't a genuine wake up call for the sport, the fact that we've since seen suicides and careers ruined because of the arms race that is doping, the fact that Festina changed nothing and instead led to the embrace of a rider who, in my opinion has taken the wee-wee out of the sport and been supported in that aim by a corrupt governing body and the collusion of big brands - it all saddens me. But in your view I'm not motivated by passion for the sport and a desire to see the Augean stable cleaned of a steaming pile of shoot - from the top downwards - but instead some kind of psychological illness saddens me not a little (particularly since my husb is a psychotherapist and has declared me perfectly sane if a little over the top in my passion for a sport that he sees as recreation ).

Everyone's motivations are different - there's no one pro or anti mindset. We all have our reasons for the positions we take. I'm interested to know why a) what's behind your pro Armstrong stance and b) why you apparently can't take people at their word, preferring instead to shoehorn their statements to fit your 'hater' stereotype (as some fit all pros into the fanboy template).

You know what Dennis - I was at the final TT in the 1999 Tour. An American friend and I saw Armstrong power past and then repaired to a local bar to watch the finish. My friend was carried out of the place shoulder high after getting thoroughly pissed on all the free drinks he was bought. People were cheering and yelling 'chapeau' as Armstrong crossed the finish line. He was a hero, the comeback kid. So what changed their minds so they were booing him 4 years later? Why did I walk away from the last TT in the pouring rain in the 2003 Tour thoroughly disheartened? Because of what I'd seen, disgusted by what I'd read and heard in those 4 years.

Anyway, as you were - apologies for the loooooong post but I can't help a bit of a rant when I'm passionate about something

IainF - I'm not worthy (and certainly haven't been a cool kid since about 1977)

And so say all of us.....(if you can be arsed to scroll back far enough to the bold text!!

rockmount

Jeez girls are so spiteful ! Specially when it comes to man's sport !

mididoctors

rockmount wrote:

Jeez girls are so spiteful ! Specially when it comes to man's sport !

Bakunin

Micron -- good post.

I still don't think that Dennis gets it.

Monty Dog

Great post Micron - perhaps the most lucid explanation of what many of us have felt for many years but have continually been shouted-down as "non-believers"

I just can't forgive Dennis for admitting he's got yellow bar tape on his Gios - sacrilege I tell you.... :shock:

moray_gub

micron wrote:

Dave_1 I don't get that line of argument - those of us who are disgusted at the way the sport has been dragged down bt frauds and cheats are ruining the sport and those who have facilitated the cheats like Dr Ferrari should be left in peace? Does it never occur to you or Moray that those of us who speak out against doping do so because we deeply love the sport. If you genuinely believe that those of do so want to destry the sport I really suggest you take a step back and look at your priorities - what destroys a sport more: fans speaking out about what they feel is wrong with it and would like to see cleaned up or having a figurehead of the sport who acts as a lightning rod for doping and fraud allegations and whose name is always mentioned in the same breath as the word 'doping'. Seriously, how is that healthy for the sport?

You won't find me gloating about LA until he is properly convicted of the fraud he has perpetrated and that may not even happen. No gloating from me over a rider whose body fails them - at some point or other it's happened to many champions. It's human physical frailty and all of us are subject to it. It's the mentality of cheating and fraud I object to.

I dont think for a minute its about the love of the sport for you its about a hatred of Lance Armstrong , your hatred even manifests itself into objecting to cancer sufferers taking inspiration from him as you posted a year or so back, that still remains the most insightful thing into your mind. A mindset that would like to pick and choose who cancer sufferers should get their inspiration from So as i say spare me the bull about love of the sport and just come clean with the real reasons.

moray_gub

dennisn wrote:

micron wrote:

BTW Dennis, I've just been blocked by Lance Armstrong - now whose threatened by whom? [/quote
a. I really am only interested in the reasons behind the Anti Lance mindset, but I doubt or.

Likewise i try to get to the bottom of it as well as i dont buy this for the love of the sport sh*te. I think this forum has become full of phony d ick wavers all posturing trying to be the biggest LA hater in here.

BikingBernie

Bakunin wrote:

Micron -- good post.

I still don't think that Dennis gets it.

And another vote from me. (And by the looks of it Moray doesn't get it either).

disgruntledgoat

I beg to differ MG. I like to think of myself as being reasonably even-handed and able to take situations on their merit and I think the vast majority of regular posters on here are exactly the same. They apply the same standards to all riders in terms of credibility and assessing their performances or other issues associated with them.

One or two people have a "blindspot" for riders they like (Witness my Gibo thing!) and a couple more have a real burning dislike for one or two riders (Although LA does seem to really bring it out of people!).

As I say, I'm happy to give any rider credit where it's due and to criticise any rider who I feel deserves it. I always try to base it on evidence and I always try to credit other posters with the belief that their opinions are sincerely held. Micron posts all year round on an all manner of races and mentions Armstrong pretty infrequently, I don't know how you can get on her case over "hatred", she just happens to disagree with you.

Kléber

Moray Gub wrote:

Likewise i try to get to the bottom of it as well as i dont buy this for the love of the sport sh*te. I think this forum has become full of phony d ick wavers all posturing trying to be the biggest LA hater.

Not so sure, people seem pretty moderate on here. I get the sense that most posters express scepticism, not hate. Even the most dogged LA detractor on here, BB, takes the time to post up quotes, info and more.

Take a look at other forums where you get real personal animosity, aggressiveness and more.

mididoctors

Moray Gub wrote:

Likewise i try to get to the bottom of it as well as i dont buy this for the love of the sport sh*te. I think this forum has become full of phony d ick wavers all posturing trying to be the biggest LA hater in here.

nah... poor insight on your part

clearly not the case... look how often people distance themselves from BB even if they are "haters"?

moray_gub

BikingBernie wrote:

Bakunin wrote:

Micron -- good post.

I still don't think that Dennis gets it.

And another vote from me. (And by the looks of it Moray doesn't get it either).

Seeing as ive got you here i am intrigued by why you suddenly visted the TDF becuase recently you stated that you were not intersted in cycling at all. You wouldnt go and watch it etc yet on what was probably the worst day of LAs Tours post 99 you were suddenly on an Alpine slope to see it.............. mmm i wonder

Kléber

Moray, why do you go after the posters so aggressively on here, rather than their comments? You might be more at home on the cyclingnews forum

moray_gub

Kléber wrote:

Moray, why do you go after the posters so aggressively on here, rather than their comments? You might be more at home on the cyclingnews forum

Nope think i will stick around here its all right with you. I realise not being a d ick waving anti LA poster makes me unpopular but so be it.

mididoctors

Moray Gub wrote:

Nope think i will stick around here its all right with you. I realise not being a d ick waving anti LA poster makes me unpopular but so be it.

your ok in my book... if that means anything to you

disagree with a lot you say.. "shrug"

Kléber

Stick around, I didn't mean to send you away. Just saying you can play the man... or the girl, not the ball. You're not actually a Dutch footballer, are you?

BikingBernie

Moray Gub wrote:

this forum has become full of phony d ick wavers all posturing trying to be the biggest LA hater in here.

I think what Moray just might be trying to say is that, no matter how much we all enjoy engaging is a bit of robust discussion regarding Armstrong, nobody on here really 'hates' him at all. If this is what he means, then he is right, and after all the only people who like to label criticisms of Armstrong as 'hate' in the first place are his most vocal supporters.

As to calling people 'dick wavers', this is rather over the top when, at worst, a few people on here (me included) might be guilty of playing up to a 'forum persona' whose very existence is itself a creation of the reaction of others to what has been posted.

If, on the other hand, Moray is trying to argue that concerns expressed about the integrity of the sport and so on are 'phony', he is simply wrong. I would like nothing more than to be able to watch pro racing and 'believe' in what I am seeing, rather than wondering if the performances owe more to the riders doping regime than any other factor.

finchy

BikingBernie wrote:

If, on the other hand, Moray is trying to argue that concerns expressed about the integrity of the sport and so on are 'phony', he is simply wrong. I would like nothing more than to be able to watch pro racing and 'believe' in what I am seeing, rather than wondering if the performances owe more to the riders doping regime than any other factor.

+1

I've enjoyed cycling much more in the past couple of seasons (since 2007, not since LA's retirement) as increasingly tough measures are taken against doping. The racing (especially GTs) is also becoming a lot more open and exciting, much better than the predictable processions that we had a few years back.

BikingBernie

Moray Gub wrote:

i am intrigued by why you suddenly visted the TDF becuase recently you stated that you were not intersted in cycling at all. You wouldnt go and watch it etc yet on what was probably the worst day of LAs Tours post 99 you were suddenly on an Alpine slope to see it...

I have never said that I am not interested in cycling, and I have now followed and being involved in the sport for almost 40 years. What I have said is that I could not bring myself to visit the Tour ever since I witnessed Landis' phoney 'win' in 2006. I made the effort on Sunday because it made good day out on the bike and the race covered some of my favourite local roads. And I could have hardly known in advance that Armstrong was going to crack on that particular day, could I? In fact I thought he was going to be right up there.

moray_gub

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I beg to differ MG. I like to think of myself as being reasonably even-handed and able to take situations on their merit and I think the vast majority of regular posters on here are exactly the same. They apply the same standards to all riders in terms of credibility and assessing their performances or other issues associated with them.

One or two people have a "blindspot" for riders they like (Witness my Gibo thing!) and a couple more have a real burning dislike for one or two riders (Although LA does seem to really bring it out of people!).

As I say, I'm happy to give any rider credit where it's due and to criticise any rider who I feel deserves it. I always try to base it on evidence and I always try to credit other posters with the belief that their opinions are sincerely held. Micron posts all year round on an all manner of races and mentions Armstrong pretty infrequently, I don't know how you can get on her case over "hatred", she just happens to disagree with you.

The fact she disagrees with me is an irrelevance i base my comments on her previous comments . As for posters applying the same standards to all riders.......you are joking right ?

andyp

Kléber wrote:

Stick around, I didn't mean to send you away. Just saying you can play the man... or the girl, not the ball. You're not actually a Dutch footballer, are you?

blazing_saddles

Well, something is definitely wrong, when this thread continues to generate such postings, just before the Queen Stage of the Alps is about to start.
So, I'm off to start a spoiler. Move on people. In terms of the Tour, Lance is yesterday's news.
We potentially have a fascinating and far more open race than anybody expected.

Clear to me that if we are all Armstrong haters, then Moray is a forum hater.
Don't like the "hater" term. It's applied like paint in a primary school art lesson.

mididoctors

Moray Gub wrote:

[

The fact she disagrees with me is an irrelevance i base my comments on her previous comments . As for posters applying the same standards to all riders.......you are joking right ?

depends...there is a variable degree of blindness in how riders are viewed..

DG and Timoid are probably examples of pretty balanced perspectives.. Iain and kleber slightly less so but far from blinded by the transgression of others... Blaze is a bit of a hater at times but he puts the boot into plenty of others

I do come down on LA harder... I would classify my self as a pretty hard core hater

I think he is the worst of a pretty bad bunch

BB is at the extreme end..

I think LA gets the attention because he is the villain.. Rollo Tomasi

its not some weird accident... maybe the haters are right and LA is an absolute shocker..

a nexus surrounded and intertwiened with a cabal of villains..the hog PMcQ HV etc...

BikingBernie

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Don't like the "hater" term. It's applied like paint in a primary school art lesson.

At risk of being called an 'extremist' and a 'hater', the following is worthy of a repost:

"...if Jesus Christ and the Bible can be debated in a sound manner as is happening in many educated circles today, why not Lance Armstrong?

Well. Uh-oh. It doesn't work that way. In fact, if you do the same against Lance Armstrong, you're a jerk, a dick, a piece of shit, someone who doesn't value life or success and is a hater for the fight against cancer.

Really? Never has been the word 'hater' so overused and out of context. Who talked anything about cancer here? We're talking about the man. We're talking about his personality. We're talking about his wrongdoings and serious misdemeanors that need a place for focused, intelligent discussion.

Nope. Not allowed. ACCESS DENIED. We will delete your comment. Our management will have you banned. He fought cancer, he's a cancer survivor. He won the Tour de France 7 times. Sorry, we believe in him and We're Holier Than Thou. You will hereby be an outcast."

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2009/07 ... trong.html

dennisn

Bakunin wrote:

Micron -- good post.

I still don't think that Dennis gets it.

I'm sure I don't get it. I'll tell you what I do GET though, and that's a "micron" quote from a while back. "I wouldn't bother wasting an emotion on someone as insignificant as Armstrong". Odd statement from someone who just posted a really long rant about that very person.

lucybears

ROFL
Horner says Armstrong bonked after his second crash
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/07/ ... ash_128336
Seem to remember a “much to learn” message from a TWITter after Contador bonked in Paris-Nice last year.