WSJ Part 2

Steve2020

'Coincidentaly', the failure of the hospital to identify who the doctors in the room actually were followed the acceptance of a donation by the hospital of $1.5 million from the Lance Armstrong Foundation...[/quote]

Which coincidentally was made two days after the Andreus' testimony in the SCA case.

BikingBernie

paulcuthbert wrote:

However, I think this part is BS. I was in hospital last month, and they asked my Mum - MY OWN MOTHER - to leave the room while they asked me some questions.

Armstrong himself asked the people in the room to stay...

In her deposition, Betsy Andreu testified:I said, I think we should leave to give you your privacy. I said that to Lance. And Lance said, that's OK. You can stay. And I turned to Frankie and I said, I think we should leave. And Frankie said, no, Lance said it's OK. We can stay. And so the doctor asked him a few questions, not many, and then one of the questions he asked was... have you ever used any performance-enhancing drugs? And Lance said yes. And the doctor asked, what were they? And Lance said, growth hormone, cortisone, EPO, steroids and testosterone.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=5508863

paulcuthbert

BikingBernie wrote:

Also Betsy Andreu has said that the doctor who asked the question was definitely not the consultant in charge of Armstrong's treatment

If you knew anything about nothing, you'd know that - and especially with cancer - often patients don't have "consultants in charge" of their treatment.

Also, as has been said before - a memory isn't really that reliable. Using words like "definitely" should be taken with a spoonful of salt, not even a pinch!

RichN95.

BikingBernie wrote:

Steve2020 wrote:

On the other hand, the doctors both deny it.

One of the doctors is on the Scientic Advisory Committee of Livestrong (presumably .org not .com)

Also Betsy Andreu has said that the doctor who asked the question was definitely not the consultant in charge of Armstrong's treatment. This doctor who did ask the question has never been identified by the hospital. 'Coincidentaly', the failure of the hospital to identify who the doctors in the room actually were followed the acceptance of a donation by the hospital of $1.5 million from the Lance Armstrong Foundation...

All of this may or may not be true. Personally, while I think LA doped, I take every piece of evidence on its own merits. You take everything as black and white. Anti LA = true, Pro LA = lie. (I've often pointed out that you''re just like Armstrong in this respect). If, once in a while, you said that a piece of evidence didn't really add up, then people would see you as credible.

When has there ever been a public argument were every utterance was true on one side and false on the other? You've immersed yourself too deeply in LA over the years to make yourself a credible impartial voice.

Your links are valuable (for those who are fairly new to this place), but sadly your opinions are greatly devalued

BikingBernie

paulcuthbert wrote:

BikingBernie

RichN95 wrote:

Your links are valuable (for those who are fairly new to this place), but sadly your opinions are greatly devalued

But I have not given an opinion. :roll:

I am quite happy to let the evidence speak for itself...

paulcuthbert

BikingBernie wrote:

paulcuthbert wrote:

D'you wanna not quote me on things I haven't said?

Cheers Bernie

RichN95.

BikingBernie wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Your links are valuable (for those who are fairly new to this place), but sadly your opinions are greatly devalued

But I have not given an opinion. :roll:

I am quite happy to let the evidence speak for itself...

I don't think you'll find many people here who will back you up on that. You tend to selectively quote and editorialise. You also greatly weaken your cause with your one-track, blinkered rants on Americans (except when it suits you).

When it comes to Armstrong, we both agree that he doped. The difference is that I can take a fairly neutral line, taking every bit of evidence on it's own merits, while you have chosen to go the full conspiracy theorist.

Have you never thought that the strongest battles are those fought from the middle ground? You present yourself as politically savvy, but if you were, you would know that extremism is ultimately untenable.

Percy Vera

paulcuthbert wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

Also Betsy Andreu has said that the doctor who asked the question was definitely not the consultant in charge of Armstrong's treatment

If you knew anything about nothing, you'd know that - and especially with cancer - often patients don't have "consultants in charge" of their treatment.

Also, as has been said before - a memory isn't really that reliable. Using words like "definitely" should be taken with a spoonful of salt, not even a pinch!

Paul have you recently moved to the US? Things could be done a little differently over there.

paulcuthbert

Percy Vera wrote:

Paul have you recently moved to the US? Things could be done a little differently over there.

No. My Dad's a doctor. And I've been in hospital for various things and been dealt with by various doctors for one problem.

Maybe N.I. is different from Engerland (or wherever everyone here's from)

knedlicky

paulcuthbert wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

Also Betsy Andreu has said that the doctor who asked the question was definitely not the consultant in charge of Armstrong's treatment

If you knew anything about nothing, you'd know that - and especially with cancer - often patients don't have "consultants in charge" of their treatment!

My sister is currently getting cancer treatment; she has a consultant in charge of her treatment. In 'Engerland'.

knedlicky

sherer wrote:

Story is that during his cancer treatment he made a confession to his doctor about all the drugs he was taking. ... if he had to have that sort of coversation with a doctor during his treatment a) would a doctor have that in front of a crowded room b) why would LA say all that in front of witnesses

I wouldn’t use the word ‘confession’, he probably just answered in that way that most people in hospitals do, dropping their defences and forgetting any shame, just answering truthfully.

paulcuthbert wrote:

It breaks every rule in the carer/patient confidentiality guidelines to have other people present in the room when private medical questions are being asked.

It depends what is meant with ‘private medical questions’. And whether the questioned person, not the doctor, is concerned about confidentiality.
Also, the whole business of ‘confidentiality’ in all spheres of life has escalated over the last 7-8 years, so how things might be in some areas now, doesn’t mean they were like that a decade and a half ago.

cajun_cyclist

Betsy Andreu told people about the doping going on right away because she was all paranoid about marrying Frank if he doped, I think she was even concerned if she could have normal babies. She told people back in Michigan where she was from this story of what Lance said.

Bakunin

RichN95 wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Your links are valuable (for those who are fairly new to this place), but sadly your opinions are greatly devalued

But I have not given an opinion. :roll:

I am quite happy to let the evidence speak for itself...

I don't think you'll find many people here who will back you up on that. You tend to selectively quote and editorialise. You also greatly weaken your cause with your one-track, blinkered rants on Americans (except when it suits you).

When it comes to Armstrong, we both agree that he doped. The difference is that I can take a fairly neutral line, taking every bit of evidence on it's own merits, while you have chosen to go the full conspiracy theorist.

Have you never thought that the strongest battles are those fought from the middle ground? You present yourself as politically savvy, but if you were, you would know that extremism is ultimately untenable.

Geez Bernie -- I generally like and agree with your posts. Although I don't need your interpretation of LA's quotes.

As an American, I love the anti-American rants (you should hear me) -- you can never have enough of those.

I not sure what Rich is talking about -- extremism, the middle ground, conspiracy? There is not much of a conspiracy given the large amount of doping in the sport.

And Paul should know that old saying about Irish mercy -- when they are on the ground, that's when you kick them.

I may ride a Madone, but I'm no fanboy.

cajun_cyclist

LucyBears and BikinBernie are the same person!

BikingBernie

RichN95 wrote:

I have not given an opinion. I am quite happy to let the evidence speak for itself...

I don't think you'll find many people here who will back you up on that.

And where exactly, in relation to the 'hospital room confession', do I do anything other than quote what others have said or provide links to further information?

Rather than resorting to the old 'ad hominem attack' strategy, why not try to address the issues that the material and links I provided raise?

The bottom line is that, taken the evidence as a whole, the incident very probably did occur just as Betsy Andreu and Stephanie McIlvain said it did.

BikingBernie

paulcuthbert wrote:

I was in hospital last month, and they asked my Mum - MY OWN MOTHER - to leave the room while they asked me some questions... Using words like "definitely" should be taken with a spoonful of salt, not even a pinch!

As you definitely certain that your recall of this is correct? After all, you have tried to argue that 'memory isn't really that reliable'.

BikingBernie

RichN95 wrote:

You also greatly weaken your cause with your one-track, blinkered rants on Americans (except when it suits you).

You mean that I am critical of things like American foreign policy and the racial divide in American society when the evidence justifies it, but on other occasions (you spin this by saying 'when it suits me') I am quite prepared to be positive about the US? Sounds about right!.

As a Brit one of the few few countries I find it very had to be at all positive about is the UK, which is why I left it to live in another country! Best thing I ever did!

cajun_cyclist wrote:

LucyBears and BikinBernie are the same person!

Not so...

paulcuthbert

BikingBernie wrote:

paulcuthbert wrote:

I was in hospital last month, and they asked my Mum - MY OWN MOTHER - to leave the room while they asked me some questions... Using words like "definitely" should be taken with a spoonful of salt, not even a pinch!

As you definitely certain that your recall of this is correct? After all, you have tried to argue that 'memory isn't really that reliable'.

It was last month. And I have a prolific memory- so yeah, I think I remember it correctly.

Idiot

DaveyL

BikingBernie wrote:

As a Brit one of the few few countries I find it very had to be at all positive about is the UK, which is why I left it to live in another country! Best thing I ever did!

Lucky you don't wear a veil, eh? Still, must be nice to live in a tolerant, multi-cultural country...

BikingBernie

paulcuthbert wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

As you definitely certain that your recall of this is correct? After all, you have tried to argue that 'memory isn't really that reliable'.

It was last month. And I have a prolific memory- so yeah, I think I remember it correctly.

Idiot

A month? So, when Betsy Andreu discussed what she heard within days of the incident, she was almost certainly recalling it correctly?

P.s. I know that at a time like this it might be tempting for the Lance 'fanboys' to resort to immature personal insults, but you might like to check out the forum rules...

BikingBernie

DaveyL wrote:

Lucky you don't wear a veil, eh? Still, must be nice to live in a tolerant, multi-cultural country...

Odd you should say that, given one of my best friends in the village where I live is a Muslim. They also run a local shop and the business is booming, given all the trade they get from everyone else in the village. So yes, where I live it's great!

Meanwhile, back in 'tolerant' Britain...







‘KEEP THIS SCUM OUT (And it IS time to hound ‘em, Chief Constable).

They call themselves tinkers. itinerants. new age travellers. We call them parasites. The scum of the earth who live off the backs of others. They contribute nothing but trouble… They set up filthy, disease-ridden camps on roadsides and in parks and offend every decent citizen.

BikingBernie

P.s. on the subject of British 'tolerance'. (And I could give literally hundreds of similar examples).

The Times
December 27, 2007
What’s smug and deserves to be decapitated?
Matthew Parris: My Week

A festive custom we could do worse than foster would be stringing piano wire across country lanes to decapitate cyclists. It’s not just the Lycra, though Heaven knows this atrocity alone should be a capital offence; nor the helmets, though these ludicrous items of headgear are designed to protect the only part of a cyclist that is not usefully employed; nor the self-righteousness, though a small band of sports cyclists on winter’s morning emits more of that than a cathedral at evensong; nor even the brutish disregard for all other road users, though the lynching of a cyclist by a mob of mothers with pushchairs would be a joy to witness.

…What is the carbon footprint of a panting, sugar-gulping, chocolate-chewing, Lycra-clad leisure-cyclist? a) His or her journey is totally unnecessary; b) whole convoys of cargo boats steam the Atlantic to bring the molasses to be energy-intensively refined for them; and c) the chemical processes that generate the vile materials that clothe, shoe and helmet a cyclist – not a man-made fibre among them – will be poisoning entire provinces of China.

…In just one little posse of these monsters there are levels of self-satisfaction that could power a small religious crusade.


The Mirror
August 5, 2002, Monday
TONY PARSONS COLUMN

I HAVE always thought that it should be cyclists that are chained to lamp -posts, and not their bikes.

…If you live in a British city, then every day a cyclist will endanger your safety. The idea of the cyclist as an eco-friendly wayfarer is tosh - he is far more likely to be a belligerent yob who was a Panzer tank commander in a previous lifetime.

…If we cared anything at all about road safety, then we would tear up all the bicycle lanes today. We would order traffic wardens to nick any cyclist who jumps a red light - all of them, in other words.

AND if we truly cared about safety on our roads, then we would make a bonfire of all those stupid hats, all that hideous Lycra and every bicycle in the land.

They are all an affront to civilised society, whether you move around on four wheels or foot. Bicycles are for children. They are for little boys doing their paper round. They are for little girls going round their friend's house to play with their Barbie dolls. Bikes teach kids the joy of mobility, speed and freedom.

They are not for men who think they are somehow better than everybody else because they don't have to stop for a tank of unleaded. Bicycles are like masturbation - something you should grow out of.

There is something seriously sick and stunted about grown men who want to ride a bike.

sherer

i'd ignore any stories from the Express and Mail.

All places have good and bad points no matter what country you live in. Only difference is most places rain less than the UK, unless you live in Belguim

RichN95.

BikingBernie wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Lucky you don't wear a veil, eh? Still, must be nice to live in a tolerant, multi-cultural country...

Odd you should say that, given one of my best friends in the village where I live is a Muslim. They also run a local shop and the business is booming, given all the trade they get from everyone else in the village. So yes, where I live it's great!

Of course there are no local shops run by Muslims and Hindus in Britain. :roll:

Meanwhile back in 'tolerant' France:



This selective evidence thing you do is easy isn't it?

Kléber

France and Britain can be equally tolerant and intolerant. One has the BNP, the other has the National Front. The media is different, you would not find such agressive newspapers in France but you get other problems, eg police racism. But in general both countries are similar and comparing them is a pointless game.

BikingBernie

sherer wrote:

i'd ignore any stories from the Express and Mail.

How about the Sun, Mirror, Times and so on?



In reality the Mail and Sun are the biggest selling papers in the UK by a large margin, and the Express is the fourth largest seller, so the views expressed in them can hardly be called marginal.

BikingBernie

RichN95 wrote:

Meanwhile back in 'tolerant' France:



This selective evidence thing you do is easy isn't it?

Come on, a poster from a marginalised right-wing political party can hardly be compared with a stream of headlines from Britain's biggest selling papers, can it? As Kleber points out you won't find the sort of hate peddled in Britain's press in the French mass media.

BikingBernie

Kléber wrote:

France and Britain can be equally tolerant and intolerant.

Unless you are a cyclist, in which case I would take France any day of the week!

BikingBernie

DaveyL wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

As a Brit one of the few few countries I find it very had to be at all positive about is the UK, which is why I left it to live in another country! Best thing I ever did!

Lucky you don't wear a veil, eh? Still, must be nice to live in a tolerant, multi-cultural country...

Oh well, it look's we all fell for your trolling.