"You don't pay road tax" knobend

rjsterry

Worrying how part of your brain can drop the rest of you in it. I rarely believe anyone when they say "Oh, I'd never react like that, I'd just...". As you say, you can find out all sorts of rather unpleasant things about oneself if pushed hard enough.

I also consider myself pretty non-aggressive (I haven't really got the physique to do anything else) once got really wound up by a chap cutting me up (to undertake a queue of traffic in a bus lane FFS), and as I passed him in standing traffic further down the road, I tapped the side of his car with my toe, with the (in hindsight) predictable response of him going mental, steaming after me, swerving in front to block my route, and throwing bits of rubbish from his car at me whilst shouting "Who the f*ck do you think you are kicking my car?". All rather scary, and a lesson well learnt. Leave the nutters a lone

jonginge

(One of the) The major problem with tapping a car is that the panel amplifies the sound so the driver thinks you've, at least, dented their pride and joy. I've done it once when a twunt in a beamer who apexed a corner while overtaking me. It was just a tap but he went ballistic. I content myself mostly with a shake of the head these days.

AndyManc

rjsterry wrote:

Leave the nutters a lone

or .... do what you can without endangering yourself.


Do nothing, and nothing will change.

.

greg66_tri_v2.0

AndyManc wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Leave the nutters a lone

or .... do what you can without endangering yourself.


Do nothing, and nothing will change.

.

Yes, Master Wayne.

Or do something, and risk a life changing consequence.

AndyManc

Greg66 wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Leave the nutters a lone

or .... do what you can without endangering yourself.


Do nothing, and nothing will change.

.

Yes, Master Wayne.

Or do something, and risk a life changing consequence.

Oh sorry, for your eyes only "without endangering yourself" , that doesn't mean taking direct action at the roadside.


.

greg66_tri_v2.0

AndyManc wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

AndyManc wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Leave the nutters a lone

or .... do what you can without endangering yourself.


Do nothing, and nothing will change.

.

Yes, Master Wayne.

Or do something, and risk a life changing consequence.

Oh sorry, for your eyes only "without endangering yourself" , that doesn't mean taking direct action at the roadside.


.

Which is why I edited my original post as soon as I'd made it. I'll change it back now, though, just to be nice.

But the something you suggest doing isn't particularly obvious as something after the event, as opposed to during it. If you mean nothing more than report the driver to the police, great. Just don't expect the police to lift a finger in response.

tailwindhome

Kieran Burns wrote this on another thread

If someone handed you a lump of sh*t would you accept it? No? So why do you accept the sh*t that people hand to you each day? You don't have to. If someone hands you a lump of sh*t you choose not to take it. So if someone is shitty to you, don't accept it, don't take it. Leave it alone, walk away from it. It's not your sh*t, it's theirs.

It's good advice.

Don't chase people to start arguments

It ain't smart

mosfet

I can't believe the criticism being poured on the cyclist in this thread, full of apologists for the van driver.

The cyclist is guilty of what? Having right of way? Even if he'd braked the moment he looks up and sees the van he's still been put in a dangerous situation by the van.

The driver then makes 3 very serious and deliberate attempts to knock him off the road with 2 tonnes of metal and throws a bottle at him, all whilst shouting insults.

This driver should lose his license for at least 12 months, I seriously, seriously hope that the cyclist has reported it and is pressing charges.

prj45

mosfet wrote:

I can't believe the criticism being poured on the cyclist in this thread, full of apologists for the van driver.

The cyclist is guilty of what? Having right of way? Even if he'd braked the moment he looks up and sees the van he's still been put in a dangerous situation by the van.

The driver then makes 3 very serious and deliberate attempts to knock him off the road with 2 tonnes of metal and throws a bottle at him, all whilst shouting insults.

This driver should lose his license for at least 12 months, I seriously, seriously hope that the cyclist has reported it and is pressing charges.

Er, if the cyclist had slowed up instead of carrying on and slapping the van none of that would have happened.

mosfet

prj45 wrote:

mosfet wrote:

I can't believe the criticism being poured on the cyclist in this thread, full of apologists for the van driver.

The cyclist is guilty of what? Having right of way? Even if he'd braked the moment he looks up and sees the van he's still been put in a dangerous situation by the van.

The driver then makes 3 very serious and deliberate attempts to knock him off the road with 2 tonnes of metal and throws a bottle at him, all whilst shouting insults.

This driver should lose his license for at least 12 months, I seriously, seriously hope that the cyclist has reported it and is pressing charges.

Er, if the cyclist had slowed up instead of carrying on and slapping the van none of that would have happened.

And the man happy and willing to assault another human being with a 2 tonne box is still driving around, on the same roads as you.

prj45

mosfet wrote:

And the man happy and willing to assault another human being with a 2 tonne box is still driving around, on the same roads as you.

Pretty much anybody will act like that if you slap their vehicle.

Look, I'm not excusing the behaviour of the van driver, and I'd happily see him banned, but the cyclist was provocative and didn't really need to be (as was the van driver).

It's no good saying "well, I got him banned" when you've got a tyre track across your face.

conanius

as a newbie to the forum that was quite an interesting watch. Personally, I'd have tapped the brakes, probably muttered something under my breath, and carried on.

My take is he appears to be the kind of cyclist who gives abuse to people who surprisingly get off the bus that has stopped at a designated location which he is in the process of undertaking.

mosfet

prj45 wrote:

mosfet wrote:

And the man happy and willing to assault another human being with a 2 tonne box is still driving around, on the same roads as you.

Pretty much anybody will act like that if you slap their vehicle.

Look, I'm not excusing the behaviour of the van driver, and I'd happily see him banned, but the cyclist was provocative and didn't really need to be (as was the van driver).

It's no good saying "well, I got him banned" when you've got a tyre track across your face.

Watch the video again, the van had clearly started squeezing the cyclist off the road before the slaps. The slaps aren't an angry attempt a punishment, they're letting the driver know he's there.

The cyclist should've called it a day after the first attempt on him, especially since he had the helmet cam, but I've been in similar situations and anger and adrenaline removes any rational thought from you.

tailwindhome

mosfet wrote:

and anger and adrenaline removes any rational thought from you.

Exactamundo

davis

mosfet wrote:

Watch the video again, the van had clearly started squeezing the cyclist off the road before the slaps.

Not to my eyes.

I think the driver turned *slightly* too much. I suspect this might be:

a) his vehicle's got a larger radius turning circle than you think. Probably not though, most vans that I've known in are brilliant for this.
b) he saw the on-coming cyclist (and people moving out) and moved back in
c) he expected the cyclist to be behind him
d) he simply made a mistake

I don't think any of those are deliberate "squeezing".

I think c) and d) are both quite plausible.

In case you misunderstand, I'm not an apologist for the driver's later behaviour -- that's just git-tastic. I am however certain that incident was avoidable -- predictable, even. I'd like to think I would have simply slowed a little, and carried on my way.
I do drive quite often, though. Maybe it's this that led me to expect the van's behaviour.

Honestly, it's not "us" versus "them". It's a guy driving a van, quite likely doing his job. This whole debate reminds me of the "car vs. truck drivers" piffle. As I recall, the truck drivers' response was "if you bought it, a truck brought it".


Edit: I do agree with the adrenaline comment though: Anger can and does put you in a silly position; it doesn't often end well. I don't believe the rider's behaviour should be excused by that though, mostly because of the total predictability of the van pulling out.

shouldbeinbed

11 seconds in - the 1st view of the van and the cyclist is still a way down the road, van is already out past the line and moving forwards into the approaching gap behind the last car, seems to have slowed momentarily as there was a car passing in the opposite carriageway.

the van was already into the carriageway and was manouvering back into his own lane when the cyclist tried to undertake into a gap that was already narrowing and hit the vehicle.

totally predictable from seconds in what the van was going to do, why deliberately provoke a confrontation for what amounts to pretty typical driving standards from a lot of people now.

I see similar almost every day.

typical WVM stunt vs cyclist with a short fuse and a point to prove. Lifes too short already without choosing to wander through the lions den with the bisto underpants on.

If he rode my main road commute he'd be dead in a week one way or another.

redvee

The turning circle on that van is crap, we have one in work and what is a 3 point turn for other vans is a 4 point for Renault/Vauxhall/Nissans. This doesn't excuse the driver for the squeezes he tries though.

greg66_tri_v2.0

mosfet wrote:

Watch the video again, the van had clearly started squeezing the cyclist off the road before the slaps. The slaps aren't an angry attempt a punishment, they're letting the driver know he's there.

Another one for Specsavers. See here.

northstar

Watch the video again, the van had clearly started squeezing the cyclist off the road before the slaps

+1

Matt the Tester

Mr Sworld wrote:

Wow!
That's the worst one I've seen yet...

yea :S VERY scary!

Mr Sworld

redvee wrote:

The turning circle on that van is crap, we have one in work and what is a 3 point turn for other vans is a 4 point for Renault/Vauxhall/Nissans. This doesn't excuse the driver for the squeezes he tries though.

No, sorry but that's bollocks. Watch the video again. He's already got his front wheels over the stop line as the blue car passes. Then pulls in far to close to the kerb.

It's a modern van, they all have power steering nowadays. If it was a 7 1/2 tonne or above then maybe but not a transit. They are as easy to drive as an estate car.

He then drives over cross hatches in the middle of the road without reason. Then after throwing a can/bottle at him deliberately squeezes the cyclist into the kerb again.

I'm actually amazed at the amount of negative responses to this. You lot who cycle in London might be suffering from 'shell shock' due to living in there but the rest of the country doesn't see this sort of behaviour on a daily basis.

Shame on you.

UndercoverElephant

I don't think anyone is excusing the van driver's behaviour in the latter half of the video, that truly was awful, dangerous and malicious. What we're more saying is that the van was obviously pulling out in front of the cyclist, there was a decent gap between even, but there wasn't enough room once the driver got on the road to complete the manoeuver. This happens all the time, I see it in the car, I see it on the bike.

I would slow down and let them complete the move, I certainly wouldn't try to undertake him when he was still turning.

If it hadn't been a bike, but a car that was moving along the main street who sped up slightly and tried to undertake the van that pulled out what would you think then?

All so avoidable. I'm a big fan of driving, and riding defensively.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Mr Sworld wrote:

Watch the video again. He's already got his front wheels over the stop line as the blue car passes. Then pulls in far to close to the kerb.

Good advice. Perhaps you should follow it. After you've got back from Specsavers and drained your ears.

First, it's a Give Way line, not a stop line. Second, everything that's important, and which explains what happens, takes place between your first and second sentences. See here.

MadammeMarie

Mr Sworld wrote:

I'm actually amazed at the amount of negative responses to this. You lot who cycle in London might be suffering from 'shell shock' due to living in there but the rest of the country doesn't see this sort of behaviour on a daily basis.

Shame on you.

+1

cee

Mr Sworld wrote:

I'm actually amazed at the amount of negative responses to this. You lot who cycle in London might be suffering from 'shell shock' due to living in there but the rest of the country doesn't see this sort of behaviour on a daily basis.

I have never ridden in London. Edinburgh is very small in comparison...clearly with fewer cars...less congestion in the busy parts (fewer people.fewer businesses etc..)...

I see this sort of pulling out routine every day...whether I am riding my bike, or even gasp driving my car.

So no london shell shock for me.

I said it before...The van driver needs his head examined/licence revoked/jailed for his aggresive actions.

I however stand by the fact the the cyclist rode straight into it. A dab of the brakes...perhaps a mutter to himself about the 'effin van driver'...but no need to chase it down..tap the van etc...

Again...my opinion (doesn't mean it needs to agree with anyone elses...its mine OK ) is that the cyclist could have totally avoided the situation. Sure..you could argue that he shouldn't have to...and to a point I agree. however traffic is a very dynamic beast...we constantly have to adjust what we are doing based on the situation as it develops...

Some choices in this constanlty shifting fluid (yes trafific does follow some of the laws of fluid dynamics! sorry...i had a pretty dull lecture about managing traffic flow using genetic algorithms at uni...) are better than others...this time. his choice was poor.

I imagine that the police would take the footage a lot more seriously if the cyclist hadn't reacted the way he did.
As it stands...i imagine they will just look at what happened and reckon that the cycilst added as much fuel to the fire as the van driver did...though I hope they do give him points and a fine for the initial undue care and attention he caused by pulling out.

last point in a long post....the ipayroadtaxorwhatever username on youtube suggests to me that he is actually looking to showcase the worst of driving. In my experience..it is easier to find something you are looking for, than something you are not.

shouldbeinbed

Mr Sworld wrote:

redvee wrote:

The turning circle on that van is crap, we have one in work and what is a 3 point turn for other vans is a 4 point for Renault/Vauxhall/Nissans. This doesn't excuse the driver for the squeezes he tries though.

No, sorry but that's bollocks. Watch the video again. He's already got his front wheels over the stop line as the blue car passes. Then pulls in far to close to the kerb.
It's a modern van, they all have power steering nowadays. If it was a 7 1/2 tonne or above then maybe but not a transit. They are as easy to drive as an estate car.

He then drives over cross hatches in the middle of the road without reason. Then after throwing a can/bottle at him deliberately squeezes the cyclist into the kerb again.

I'm actually amazed at the amount of negative responses to this. You lot who cycle in London might be suffering from 'shell shock' due to living in there but the rest of the country doesn't see this sort of behaviour on a daily basis.

Shame on you.

precicely so what did the cyclist think was going to happen next? driver doing what most do now and cyclist with plenty of time to dab the brakes and let it go barrels up to him and feigns surprise and annoyance - give over.

its a narrow looking road with traffic passing in both directions and however car like its steering may be its still van sized and needs more roon on the road

not the most christian of motoring obviously but you mean after having his van thumped and being subject to verbal abuse by the rider. Why do you think it is only the cyclist allowed to choose to react badly to a pillock?

never ridden in London in my life, my ride is everything from city suburb to totally rural to town centre. I see this sort of driving everywhere along it.

Shame on the sort of self righteous biking prat that gives the rest of us a bad name and underserved grief by deliberately provoking an incident out of a predictable, routine and relatively minor driving indescretion which wasn't dangerous initially; when it would be so much easier to let it go; and provokes ongoing aggravation that shows none of them in a good light and could have lead to him being killed or injured.

how do you think that van driver or his passenger are going to react to the next cyclist they see now?

maryka

Driving around London -- car or bike -- this happens every day! Cars pull out into traffic when they see the tiniest bit of space, or worse yet, if making a right turn, they nose out completely into the left lane til the right lane is clear. Try a run around Tooting or Southall to get the full effect of crit-type city driving (AKA cars trying to squeeze into gaps that barely exist). :roll:

At least the rider in this video had the chance to brake and let the guy in. I've lost track of how many times a car has pulled into my lane from across the road (i.e., making a right turn to get on the main road) and nearly sideswiped me because they didn't see me or have no idea how wide their car is and how far they need to steer to make the turn.

And yes, the driver's behaviour is despicable later in the video, but I think the cyclist overreacted somewhat to the original infraction. If I spent every ride yelling at every motorist that did something stupid, I'd be doing nothing but yelling all day....

PBo

AndyManc wrote:

El Diego wrote:

Do people with helmet cams intentionally avoid taking evasive action in order to make a point? A vast majority of clips displaying bad driving seem like the incidents could be avoided, with a bit of anticipation.

I'm not denying that the driving is bad, however cars are large, potentially lethal and frequently piloted by idiots, so avoidance should take priority over making an example of bad driving.

The onus is on the motorist to take extra care with vulnerable road users.

All cyclists have varying skill and fitness levels, ages range from pre-teen to octogenarian (and older), all are subjected to appalling road surfaces and weather conditions, all those in killing machines need to apply extreme caution, most do not, it's not up to cyclists to rely on their avoidance techniques.


.

andy, i totally appreciate what you are saying, and philosophically it's correct.

it's just the pragmatic issue of not wanting the statement in bold on my gravestone.....

DonDaddyD

I watched the video again.

What the van driver did would annoy me.

- The van did stop in front of the giveway line.

- The van did pull out on the cyclist (the arguement: if the cyclist was a car the van driver wouldn't have done so springs to mind).

- As he entered the man road he did turn into the kerb. However, I don't think this was to block the cyclist, I think it was purely the momentum of the vehicle and the driver not controlling the vehicle properly.

If I was the van driver the cyclist tapping on my vehicle would annoy me.

If I was the cyclist I would like to say I would have been ready to stop, but this happens a lot in London and I've been in such a situations where I've simply muttered under my breath or where I've found myself angered, off the bike and arguing.

chrisw71

My first post on the forum and I am disappointed that the cyclist appears to illicit such negative comments.

Whilst the actions of the van driver were entirely predictable it does not excuse his subsequent behaviour. I can see no evidence that the cyclist increased his speed and his comments to the driver were hardly tantamount to verbal abuse. Also, whilst it may be foolhardy to then travel up the inside of the van it appears clear to me that the driver closes the gap deliberately and faced with a similar situation I would be likely to slap the side.

In such incidents blame is not usually down to the actions of one party but the combination of each interaction and the full sequence of events, but this does not mean that cyclists should defer to aggresive and/or inattentive driving.

Had the car pulling the boat trailer pulled out on the van causing him to brake would the driver voice his frustration at the others stupidity, perhaps sounding his horn? It doesn't then give an excuse for the other driver to deliberately use his vehicle as a weapon and assault him.