Enigma Etape or Echo ? - Any advice welcome please
Comments
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I thought all Enigma's were UK built?
I am currently planning to get an Etape for my winter/ all round bike... and part of the attraction of Enigma for me was the ability to go to Eastbourne to meet the guys and get properly fitted. (I live no where near so was planning to make weekend of it).
Does anybody know what the current lead times are for enigma bikes?0 -
If thay have your size in stock, you can take frame away with you.Carlsberg don't make cycle clothing, but if they did it would probably still not be as good as Assos0
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Hi Tigerben,
It's my understanding that all of the bikes are assembled in Eastbourne, but the standard (non customised) titanium frames are still made in Taiwan.
You can still go down to Eastbourne and get fitted, otherwise it's a matter of taking a leap of faith and just ordering one over the phone, because dealers (that hold the full range and allow test rides at least) seem to be very few and far between. Enigma used to do roadshows around the country which alleviated the problem to some extent, but they don't even do that any more.0 -
Hi All,
Here are the photos, with the following caveats
1) I had just got back from my first 80km chain-gang ride on the bike
2) It was 38C when I got back
3) I was a little tired and very sweaty
Good things to report:
1) Bike extremely comfortable to ride
2) Stable at high speed (top speed recorded on my Garmin was 59.1km/h)
3) I ran out of gears (50x12 at 105rpm!)
4) No idea on climbing as we only ascended 271m in 80km's!
5) Utterly smooth at all speeds (this is compared to a Scott alu/carbon mix frame with the same wheel & tyre combination)
Bad things
1) Of the 20 riders in the chain gang (bizarrely) Enigma is the most prevalent brand :shock: As mine is the newest, I received the expected stick from the paupers on their Cervlos, Williers, Storcks etc
2) Still fine tuning the position, particularly the stem height. This is why there is a spacer above the stem, as we (the assembler and I) are being careful to perfect the position prior to the "final" cut of the steerer tube - as no going back if too low then... :oops:
3) Not sure about the yellow & black tyres, as these were chosen to suit the Scott colour scheme - although they are starting to grow on me and black only may be a touch bland...
4) Bottle cages have been robbed from the Scott as well, and will be replaced. I've ordered some black & silver Tacx TAO cages, but will probably get some Ti ones when in stock (and the wife isn't looking...)
5) I didn't realise the bar tape had a logo in white on it, which I don't think looks too good. I'll probably change to plain black when I've worn this stuff out. In my defense this was the "last piece" left in the LBS, so at least I to to ride the bike!
6) The Heath Robinson contraption on the stem is the Garmin Forerunner mount, which I have creatively "engineered" to fit there rather than on the handlebars through the use of plastic tube, a small rubber pad and some zip ties...
The bike in almost OCP pose...
Frame Detail
Weld Detail
NDS Chain Stay (mmmm curvy...) Garmin cadence pod fitted
Enigma carbon seatpost with Charge Spoon leather/Ti saddle
Headset
If you would like any additional photos please let me know
Neil0 -
Yes Neil very nice but as you have already pointed out black tyres would I think look much nicer as would the Tacx Tao bottle cages which are my faves too. Lovely.0
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now that's a result!
great looking. i would like the plain black tyres on that bike - but like you, after those are worn out, and i like the bar tape with the white writing.
riding in Dubai must be similar to riding in Adelaide at 38 degrees. I remember it being really hot, but not sweating that much -- until i stopped. then it stars flowing as if from a tap!
i will have to get pics up of my effusion as soon as it is finished - i still have some fettling to do.regards,
dbb0 -
Quick question for you chaps please,
I've just been reading a posting on the Enigma forum about tyre clearances.
I know this relates to the Eclipse and not necessarily the other models, but there is a Eclipse owner who has added a comment to the following BikeRadar review. He claims that although he is running "very skinny" tyres, there is only 2 or 3mm between the tyre and the seat tube. I'm sure that this Eclips owner can't be wrong, but surely a wheel is likely to get out of shape by a couple of mm (say if you hit a slight pothole), in which case, the tyre would be touching the seatpost.
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... e-08-24152
Is this the same with other Enigma models and is this 2mm clearance the same between chainstay and tyre ? This is one of the main reasons why I favour the Etape.0 -
Oh alright then, I'll duck out of work early, go for a ride and then measure the gap for you, if you absolutely insist...
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Right, skived off work and took the measurements...
Tyres are Michelin Pro Race 3 size marked as 700-23C, pressure at 100psi (or slightly higher). Tyres have done around 500km, and are still a rounded profile.
Wheels are Shimano WH-RS80, marked as 622-15C
Measurements I can take are:
NDS Chainstay -> tyre: 5mm clearance
NDS Chainstay -> wheel: 8mm clearance
Tyre -> FD band: 4mm clearance
I can't measure the DS chainstay clearance due to the chainrings being in the way...
DS chainstay view of clearance
Seat stay view of clearance (1)
Seat stay view of clearance (2)
The closest point to the tyre is the band for the front derailleur, but Enigma don't appear to do a braze on mount.
Based upon my earlier full bike photo, compared with the photo of the bike shown in the review, I would suggest that the Echo has greater tyre -> seat tube clearance than the Eclipse.
I would add though that if my back wheel was 4mm out of true (i.e ovalised) I would probably feel seasick while riding (and the wheel would probably collapse!)
HTH
Neil0 -
congratulations that is a sweet looking bike
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Great looking bike and In some ways a bit nicer than the Etape - maybe the down tube is not so fat on the Echo (?)
Personally, I would prefer a little more tyre clearance, but that is because I have settled on 25c tyres and occasionally use 28's due to the poor road surfaces found throughout UK these days. I would probably also go for eyes on the rear drop outs to mount a Tubus rack as it is such a useful way to extend the use range of any bike.
Hmm, I feel an Enigma custom build coming together..!0 -
Hi Tenor,
I'm glad it's not just me that is concerned about tyre clearances.
That Echo is without doubt a very lovely bike indeed, but 5mm clearance on 23mm tyres seems a bit fine to me. Presumably you wouldn't have a chance of running 28mm tyres on the Echo.
Also, read the comment at the end of the following review.
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... e-08-241520 -
Seems to me you want to run wider tyres Bamford, and only the Etape will let you do that.0
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I think it's more a case of having the peace of mind of having slightly more clearance on the 23c or 25c tyres that I would most likely be running and having the option to fit a 28c in the unlikely event that I find a 25c tyre to be too narrow.0
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Obviously this will be entirely your choice, however (as I understand it) a 28C tyre is 5mm total wider than a 23C, this will consume half of the clearance space available each side of the tyre, so providing a resulting clearance of 2.5mm still.
I may well be incorrect to do this, but my brakes have approximately 1mm (or less) clearance to the rim, so a 1.1mm buckle in the wheel will cause the brakes to rub way before I get anywhere near the chainstay with the tyre...
I have no need/intention of running 28C's on this bike, and 23 will be my normal choice. I have ordered some (all black!) GP4000's for some longer rides I have this summer, but this is mostly for improved p*uncture protection. I have ordered 25C's as these may be (very slightly) more comfortable than the 23C's, but I have no concerns with them fitting.
As stated before, in the review posted the comment is relating to clearance to the seat tube, which is 4mm on my Echo (as measured). The photo posted on the review does appear to have less clearance than in my equivalent photograph.
This will not be affected by changes in tyre width, unless you generate such incredible velocity that the additional mass of the wider tyre forces it to expand further so causing catastrophic tyre/seat tube interface If this is the case, please can I slipstream you - at least prior to the crash!
Fundamentally I would suggest calling or emailing Enigma and discussing your concerns & potential resolutions. They were extremely helpful to me, and definitely seem to understand what they are doing.
There was an earlier question I missed, which related to the delivery time-scales. Lead time on my custom frame was quoted as 3 - 4 months, which was an additional reason why I ended up with an off the shelf model, as I need to get the bike operational.
Neil0 -
5mm is a massive amount in bike terms. Think about crank lengths for example (2.5mm increments, conventional range from 165mm to 175mm). Also, try having your saddle 5mm higher than it should be - you'll notice. So i'm sure having your wheel out by 5mm, you will stop riding your bike before you ride your tyre into the frame.
Like Neil said you'd feel pretty seasick lol. Don't worry about it.0 -
Thanks for that reassuring post Mike.0
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Presumably the clearance between tyre and seat tube is dependent upon frame size.
A 53cm sized Echo frame has 40.5cm length chainstays, whereas a 59cm sized Echo has 41.2cm length chainstays.
Presumably the 5mm clearance between tyre and chainstay will remain the same for all frame sizes.0 -
i wouldn't be worried about the tyre clearances. there is enough - too much and you loose that great ride characteristic that you are looking for. tyres do not expand if you inflate them too much.
all road bikes with 'racing' geometry have the same clearances - this is to produce a fast and responsive bike.
i wouldn't be too worried about wheels going out of shape either.
i weigh 90+ kg and haven't managed to buckle wheels in years - and i haven't broken an axle since cassette clusters were developed.
and yes i ride 23mm tyres on pot holed English country roads around Oxfordshire!
i tried 25 tyres and i couldn't tell the difference to be honest - i find a greater difference to be gained by varying the tyre pressure. i ride at 100 - 105psi.
tyres = continental gp4000s for what its worth.
trust this is helpfulregards,
dbb0 -
Yes it does, thanks dbb.0
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Hi Neil,
Just wondered how you are getting on with your new Enigma Echo.
Have you managed to get many rides in yet ?0 -
Hi Bamford,
I have done around 500km's on the bike so far, and I must admit (biased as I am!) that it is absolutely FANTASTIC
The most noticeable thing is the utter smoothness of the ride, to the point where it feels "slow". Times/distances/average speeds/fellow riders seem to confirm that it isn't slow but that's how it feels in comparison to the previous bike.
Do bear in mind that I have gone from a 54cm Scott alu/carbon mix to a 57cm Ti bike, so there are more differences than just the manufacturer or material, however.
In my perception, the bike "feels" the same speed as the Scott at (around) 5km/h faster in terms of road "buzz"
All the bits I got from Enigma (frame, headset, forks & seat post) are pretty much faultless - and not areas I would consider upgrading for a long time. The RS80 wheels & Ultegra groupset (as I was previously warned by the builder!) are first on the list for major revamp - but I plan to wait for Di3 or 4 to be released and more price competitive, so a few years away...
I have changed the bottle cages from the original photo to Tacx Tao silver cages as at
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Tacx_Tao_Ultralight_Bottle_Cage/5360016509/ but TBH these aren't perfect still as the silver is too "bright" for the frame. I will probably change to Ti cages such as http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/LifeLine_Titanium_Bottle_Cage/5360033794/ when there is some stock available.
I would also probably go for the Enigma Ti skewers, as they look more in keeping that the standard Shimano Ultegra ones I have with the wheels.
I also received an email mailshot from Enigma that the price of an off the shelf Echo frameset has been dropped to £999 - a month after I bought mine :evil:
The only issue I am expecting to face is that the smaller stickers (particularly the "Echo" one on the top tube) is likely to detach itself from the frame, whereas the larger ones will be fine. This is an issue here as the bike (in its shed) will easily get to 50 degrees C on a daily basis in the summer, and the glue just can't cope. No train smash for me, and certainly not something that any UK based person would need to worry about
Hope this helps
Neil0 -
Neil's experiences are very similar to mine, now that i have my effusion on the road.
feels fast
very stiff BUT not harsh (compared to my alu frame with carbon forks and seat stays)
i did 100km on the weekend at about 3km/hr faster than normal!
great handling - feels really secure at speed and downhill. corners like it is on rails! regards,
dbb0 -
Come on DBB - get the photos up 0
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let's see if this works
[edit] i'll have to join flikr or similar
https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/Photos/Bike/IMAG0047.jpg?w=67c888a2regards,
dbb0 -
log-in required, not surprising with https....
I use Photobucket, but mainly as Flickr is on the banned list here...
Neil0 -
try again
success!
sorry about the size of the photo - i thought it would be smaller from my phone!regards,
dbb0 -
I'm curious dbb, why the brown bar tape and not black?0
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believe it or not - it is 'red' cinelli jelly.
i never thought of it as looking brown - now i'll have to change it. :evil:regards,
dbb0 -
What handlebars are they? They look very "alien" - and fantastic!
+1 on the bar tape, looks odd to me
Would it be possible to fit another few grommets on for the rear brake cable? Then you could use it as a handy abacus as well
Lovely bike though
Neil0
