Enigma Etape or Echo ? - Any advice welcome please

Bamford

Hello,

I've narrowed my choice of new bike down to either a Enigma Echo or Enigma Etape.

My intended use will most probably be long day rides, local loop fitness rides and I'm not likely to be competing in races, although sportives may be a possibility, all according to how fit I become.

I'd be very interested in any views that other forum members may have with regards to these two models, especially from owners.

Unfortunately, I'm unable to see either of these models before making a purchase (no local dealers and Eastbourne is too far).

The Etape can obviously take wider tyres and / or mudguards and a rack which makes it more flexible, but is this at the expense of performance, acceleration, extra weight etc ?

The Etape is often referred to as a "Winter Bike", presumably because it can take mudguards, and that label puts me off a bit, as this would also be my "Summer Bike".

My heart says go for the Echo, because it's a bit more racey and with possibly sharper handling, but my head says go for the Etape, because it's more practical and obviously opens up the opportunity for a bit of light touring.

A recent Cycling Plus review described the Etape as one of the most versatile bikes they have ever tested and they said they would gladly place it on the start line of any race or criterium. On the Enigma website however, under Disciplines and Performance, they clearly state that the Etape is unsuitable for racing and criteriums. Whilst I most probably won't be taking part in races, I still don't want to end up with a bike that is much slower than a standard road bike.

Looking at the picture below, the Etape still looks quite sporty and "road bike" like.

I'd be most grateful for any help and advice to help me resolve this dilemma

keef66

For the uses you describe, provided it fits you properly, I'd say the Etape would be ideal.

I have an Alu Racelight TK, which is tagged a winter trainer, as my one and only bike. Mudguards stay on 8 months out of 12. Would have had something like the Etape had I been able to afford it.

Bamford

Thanks Keith.

Yes, I think you're probably right.

I also read one forum post where the owner had an Echo but swapped it for a Etape after six months and he described the Etape as less twitchy than the Echo.

I'd still be interested to hear from owners of either model.

owenlars

I'd give Jim Walker at Enigma a call and talk to him about it. They are absolutely straight down the line at Enigma and will give you excellent advice.

Bloodaxe

Bamford

Think I can help you out here, mate - I've got one of each !

Enigma Echo with Enigma Electron forks, Ultegra groupset, Easton EA90 SL wheels, Easton finishing kit. 3 years old.

Enigma Etape with Enigma Etape forks, 105 groupset, old pair of Ksyrium SL wheels, Enigma finishing kit. Got it 2 years ago.

The Etape is the winter & bad weather bike, the mudguards stay on all year round, whereas the Echo is reserved for better weather/summer. The Echo is lighter (obviously) and faster than the Etape. The riding position is lower and 'racier' and it's easier and more fun to throw the Echo around. Having said that, the Etape doesn't hang around though, I just tend not to throw it around the same. I'd agree that the Etape is less twitchy, it's got a slightly longer headtube and wheelbase, but it's still fun to ride. The great thing about both bikes is the feel you get from a titanium frame, the fact that you don't feel like the bike has beaten you up even after 100 miles + on road surfaces of variable quality.

If you were going to go for one Enigma frame I would have to say go for the Etape, just because of its versatility. You can ride it all year round with or without mudguards. Either way, whichever Enigma you go for I'm sure you won't be disappointed as I've found Jim and Mark excellent to deal with, the frames (and indeed the forks and other kit) are top quality. You say in your original post that there is no dealer locally - where are you based ? If it's any help at all I'm in South Cumbria, you'd be more than welcome to have a look at both bikes and take them for a spin (both are size L).

Hope this is some help to you. Let me know if I can help you with anything else.

Slow Downcp

I've got an Etape, bought for winter and leave guards on all year round but find myself riding it in the summer as much as my Kuota. May not be quite as light and nimble, but the difference is marginal for me. I don't race, just ride for fun and to keep healthy.

I'd say go for the Etape, but as others have said ring and speak to Jim or Mark - very helpful people.

Bamford

Thanks very much to both of you.

It certainly helps to hear from people who already own one of these bikes.

I'm now thinking of going for the Etape, but possibly upgrade the wheels (are Fulcrum Racing 3s any good), which I'm hoping will make the bike lighter and improve performance.

The bike probably wouldn't have the mudguards and rack fitted for most of the time, but it would be nice to have this option, so that would be a weight saving.

Is the Etape noticably more of an upright riding position than the Echo ? On the other hand, less of an aggressive riding position probably leads to more comfort I would guess.

Thanks for your help so far anyway.

Bloodaxe

Bamford

Fulcrum Racing 3's are definitely a worthwhile upgrade, light, fast and strong (I'm 14 stone so need a sturdy pair of wheels). They also climb well with hardly any flex. I've had a pair for about 3 years and would certainly recommend them, they originally came with the Echo and I'm using them on another bike now.

I do notice when I'm riding the Etape that it's slightly more upright than the Echo, but as you rightly say this does help with the comfort factor and tends to lend itself to being a more year-round, long distance bike. I'm sure you wouldn't be disappointed with an Etape frame and Fulcrum Racing 3's. Keep us posted and let us know how you get on.

Cheers.

Bamford

Hi Simon,

Thanks very much indeed for that reply.

I'm also around 14stone (hopefully less after I've get a few more rides in), so that's very useful to know.

I also take size 11 shoes, so the extra toe clearance offered by the Etape would probably be useful.

bigpikle

I'd really try and get down there and see them. I know you said its a long way, but you really want to get the bike that fits. They will make you very welcome and if you give them a call I'm sure can sort a test ride on various options for you. I rode several frames while i was there and Jim and Mark and the guys were very helpful in making sure I went with the right option for me. They might even open your eyes to something slightly different as well!

Bamford

Hi Damon,

Thanks very much for your reply.

That's very sensible and sound advice, but I'm up in the East Midlands and Eastbourne is a long way, especially as I don't have the time to travel that far at the moment, due to work commitments.

I think I've more or less decided on the Etape and whilst it would be ideal to be able to see one and even better, ride one before making a purchase, I guess I'm just going to have to take the plunge.

I believe there are some Enigma dealers in the West Midlands, but even so, they don't stock the entire range and wouldn't be able to offer a test ride.

Thanks again for the advice.

Bamford

Can anyone recommend a good Enigma dealer in the midlands area, where I can actually go and see an Enigma bike and ideally go for a test ride ?

giant_man

http://www.enigmabikes.com/dealers.html

Bamford

Thanks giant mancp,

I've seen that list thanks, but there seem to be hardly any dealers in the midlands area, unless there are some that aren't on that list.

It seems to be a case of either going down to Eastbourne (not practical for everyone) and having a proper test ride and fitting, or just taking a huge leap of faith and ordering one over the phone and just hoping that the size is correct and that the bike is similar to how it looks on the website.

Also, Enigma have stopped doing roadshows which doesn't help.

giant_man

Bamford wrote:

Thanks giant mancp,

I've seen that list thanks, but there seem to be hardly any dealers in the midlands area, unless there are some that aren't on that list.

It seems to be a case of either going down to Eastbourne (not practical for everyone) and having a proper test ride and fitting, or just taking a huge leap of faith and ordering one over the phone and just hoping that the size is correct and that the bike is similar to how it looks on the website.

Also, Enigma have stopped doing roadshows which doesn't help.

But it is practical for you? You'll probably only have to go down there the once, and because it ensures you get the right size bike for you, very important, I know what I would do ... it could mean the difference between getting a bike that doesn't fit you very well and you regretting it and possibly selling the bike, and getting measured and getting the right size which you will be very happy with, and THAT the most important thing, believe me ...

'A huge leap of faith and ordering one over the phone and just hoping that the size is correct' hmmm I do shudder when I hear this ....

Bamford

Hi giant mancp,

I know what you're saying is completely sound advice, but I'm self employed and just don't have the time to get down to Eastbourne.

Looks like I might have to go for something more mainstream like a Trek or Specialized, which seem to have dealers all over the place.

Within the list of dealers on the Enigma website, there is only Fred Williams that is remotely near the midlands and even then, Enigma doesn't even appear within the list of manufacturers on their website, so that suggests that they don't even have any in stock.

owenlars

Spoeak to Jim or Mark at Enigma before you give up on them (01323 741807) they may have a very creative solution, they may even be travelling in your direction for some rason. Plus what about this lot in Bromsgrove, they seem to be Enigma dealers.

http://www.speeds-cycles.co.uk/news/eni ... bikes.html

Bamford

Hi owenlars,

Thanks and I really do appreciate your help and suggestion and please don't think I'm ungrateful, but that looks like an old 2008 page that Google has indexed.

If you look at the homepage of that site and then click Road Bikes / Filter by brand / Enigma it says "Sorry, no products were found in this category".

It might still be worth giving them a try.

Why does it have to be so difficult ???

giant_man

It doesn't have to be difficult Bamford. Best idea is to ring them and go from there.

dbb

i just bought an enigma from them (effusion frame) - without going down there or even seeing it beforehand.

i spoke to Mark several times on the phone before i made my choice - he was very helpful.
he made it very clear that if i was in any way unhappy, i could return it without any problem.

i knew the dimension of my current bike, so i was confident about sizing.

very good to deal with.

PS, mine is even UK built with the different frame finish - looks great

Bamford

Hi dbb,

Now that is very interesting, thank you very much for that reply.

By finish, I assume that you mean brushed or polished ?

If I went for brushed logos or bead blasted logos, does that mean that my frame would be built in the UK, rather than in Taiwan ?

Although I really wanted the bead blasted finish, I was reluctant to go for that option, just in case it had to be sent back if it was the wrong size.

I don't really want to be forced to go for something more mainstream like a Trek or Specialized, even if that is a much easier option.

Very interesting post though and thanks once again. If you've got any pictures, it would be rather nice if you could please post one up in this thread.

dbb

well here is a link to a frame just like mine. best way to describe it would be 'satin'. i like it.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=140117&id=106622909361165


from their facebook site. this helped me to decide, because while i like the brushed finish, i thought this bead blasted finish was less common - and i like less common!

i have had my frame for a couple of weeks now - and it is not built. hopefully my groupset will arrive this week and then I'll get the other bits from my current steed.

i think the uk made frames are bead blasted while the 'Asian' ones are brushed. I assume because bead blasting is less labour intensive and not as hard work! :twisted:

like everyone else, i encourage you to call Mark. he was very patient with me and definitely did not push me for a sale. i told him all of my concerns, he listened, understood and provided solutions. (although, i was an easy sale, i had been drooling for a couple of years).

once i placed the order, the frame arrived the next day!

trust this helps, good luck

oh - and for what it's worth, i'd go for the echo!
i hate the idea of having mudguards on my best bike. it's got something to do with spending most of my riding life in Aus!
plus, the slightly longer wheelbase means that it is less fun to ride. IMHO only

Bamford

Hi dbb,

Thanks for the reply.

I love the pictures of the Enigma within these galleries -

http://images.velodramatic.com/wallpapers/gallery2

http://www.flickr.com/photos/velodramatic/2554846311

To be honest, I will most probably never fit the full mudguards to the Etape, but I like the idea of having the option to fit up to 28C tyres (without guards) instead of being restricted to 25C tyres within minimal clearance. I don't know what it's like around your way, but some of the road surfaces around here are absolutely apalling.

It's obviously no coincidence that the Etape is Enigma's best selling model.

I also like the idea of being able to fit a Tubus flyrack for a bit of light touring and I really wonder if I would actually notice the reduced performance as a result of the slightly longer chainstay and weight difference.

I also read one report of someone who swapped his Echo for an Etape and claimed that his Echo was too twitchy.

dbb

either way you will end up with a great (and great looking) bike that is not that common.

i'm sure you won't be dissapointed

dbb

either way you will end up with a great (and great looking) bike that is not that common.

I'm sure you won't be disappointed

Bamford

Thanks dbb,

Hope you enjoy riding your Enigma when it's all ready.

DubaiNeil

dbb wrote:

i just bought an enigma from them (effusion frame) - without going down there or even seeing it beforehand.

i spoke to Mark several times on the phone before i made my choice - he was very helpful.
he made it very clear that if i was in any way unhappy, i could return it without any problem.

i knew the dimension of my current bike, so i was confident about sizing.

very good to deal with.

+ lots

I just received my Echo from Enigma, which has been built up here by a friend. I think my difficulty/cost/inconvenience of visiting Eastbourne would be slightly greater than yours

I had a couple of discussions with my contact here, who took me through a measuring session. Details were passed on to Mark who came back with some frame design options.

Ended up going for a standard 57cm Echo frame, rather than the custom geometry I believed I needed, as the difference ended up being minimal in geometry terms, and large in terms of delivery timescale.

Enigma would have struggled to be more helpful than they were - providing detailed frame diagrams with no concern as to how I may use them...

Standard size frame took about 10 days to arrive here from order.

My spec is:

Enigma Echo 57cm frame
Enigma Elektron fork
Enigma headset
Enigma carbon seatpost
Full Ultegra 5700 groupset (colours complement the frame really well IMHO)
Shimano RS80 wheelset (had already - with yellow & black Pro Race 3's which I need to wear out now!)
Ritchey WCS handlebars & stem (had already)
Charge Spoon leather/Ti saddle (had already)

The quality of the supplied parts is awesome, with very clean "jewel like" welding.

First ride is tonight, with a much longer ride planned for Saturday

Neil

giant_man

A pic or two would be very nice DubaiNeil .....

Bamford

As they say around these parts. "This thread is nothing without ... "

DubaiNeil

I only got it yesterday, and am struggling with the OCP rules at the moment, as I am not fortunate enough to have a garage door to use

I'll get something up ASAP...

Neil

Bamford

Thanks neil.