Chicken's latest

iainf72

Moray Gub wrote:

Iain in the the wider scheme of things mate your a punter who posts on a forum lets not get carried away here eh ! Anyway he has served his time and he has a right to come back and ride whether you like it or not Also irrelevant is the level of his apology. To be frank anybody that thinks they are due some sort of apology from pro rider needs to have a think to themslves.

Of course I don't think I'm due an apology. But if he did attempt to apologise etc and appear to regret his actions then perhaps he'd get a decent ride. He doesn't have to do anything but it might make his life easier, eh?

iainf72

Doobz wrote:

your kidding right? People on here know jack sh|t about whats really happening - I would say 98% of what talked about on here is info from other websites and forums..

The chicken is (was) a great rider.. No doubt - He got a raw deal and for sure I would be as pi55ed off as he is..

And 98% of what's talked about on other websites and forums comes from other places. There are people on here who know some folks "internal" to pro cycling too you know.

I can see why Rasmussen is annoyed. His team booted him out when they were perfectly aware of where he was. However, he alledgely was avoiding tests, alledgedly history of dodgy blood values, allegedly was client of the blood clinic in Vienna, allegedly had positive for DynEPO in an experimental test and allegedly tried to get someone to smuggle synthetic blood from the US to Europe for him.

Great rider. Great scientific experiment.

Doobz

And 98% of what's talked about on other websites and forums comes from other places. There are people on here who know some folks "internal" to pro cycling too you know.

Likewise

flattythehurdler

How would I feel if Cavendish, Wiggins, any long-term Garmin rider (and yes, they had a lucky escape with Tom Z) or track stars like Sir Chris, Vicky Pendleton and the gang tested positive?
After falling to the floor, wailing and rending my clothes, I honestly don't know.[/quote]

Right, I'm coming round to break the bad news

dougzz

Moray Gub wrote:

I thought his apology was a pathetic stage managed affair and most folk i talked too said it did him more harm than good ,a PR disaster really. So he screws around big f*ckin deal, he doesnt need to apologise to me or anybody else..........except maybe his wife !

But Moray, and you too Denis, as RichN95 put it IMG didn't. So in terms of handling the public perception do you consider yourself a better judge than the people at IMG?

You have to remember that your friends will typically reflect similar views to yourself or they most likely wouldn't be your friends, so they're not necessarily representative of wider opinion. Tiger marketed (was marketed by IMG) himself as a family man, part of his appeal to the wider audience of his sponsors was this wholesome family man image. So when he trashed that family image in public, he needed to apologise to his family in public, obviously you'd hope he made some private 'real' apologies too, but there had to be a public demonstration of the apology to his family as part of rebuilding the image.

Just because the sponsorship is smaller, the same applies in cycling, if you want to come back after a PED (or PED related) ban, and you you want fan/sponsorship support then I think you need the circus of the public apology. Maybe he's just a better actor but David Millar has shown real contrition through his actions, and because of this I like him and therefore Garmin. It may be a small thing but when I had to buy Sat Navs for work I made sure they were Garmin and not alternates. Maybe that makes me a saddo, but so what

afx237vi

Moray Gub wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

[


Where does the money come from, bearing in mind the sole purpose of a cycling team is an advertisement to cycling fans?

You think when a team is in the TDF or Giro they are appealing to cycling fans alone ? Come on get real.

It was a response to Dennis's point about teams only being interested in making money. But in order to be successful and make money, the teams have to present the right image to the fans, and also the race organisers. You have to get into the Giro or the TDF before you can start thinking about appealing to whoever. Ask Riccardo Ricco and Ceramica Flaminia, or Astana in 2008, or Footon last year.

It explains why no top team will ever touch Rasmussen again. His 48 hours are up, btw.

Pokerface

Even a fake apology is better than claiming you did nothing wrong - when everyone can clearly see that you did.


Tiger Woods didn't cheat at golf. He cheated on his wife. If he was using juiced balls (pardon the pun) then I'd have an issue with him. As such, I don't think he needed to say sorry to the public.

But he did and it still takes balls to do it (pardon the pun again). Even if it was 'staged'. He earns some respect for that.

These riders who refuse to say sorry - even though they have done their time - just don't get my respect.

moray_gub

Pokerface wrote:

Tiger Woods didn't cheat at golf. He cheated on his wife. If he was using juiced balls (pardon the pun) then I'd have an issue with him. As such, I don't think he needed to say sorry to the public.

But he did and it still takes balls to do it (pardon the pun again). Even if it was 'staged'. He earns some respect for that.

These riders who refuse to say sorry - even though they have done their time - just don't get my respect.

Its not about getting your respect its about whether they should apologise to you when they have done their time and the answer clearly is no. It doesnt have too much bearing on whether they get a team in future witness dopers getting back intro the peleton relatively easily without having expressed any remorse. I think all this is evidence of the culture these days when a sportsperson does something percieved to be wrong he is hounded into apologising to appease the general public. I find it all a bit ridiculous and touchy feely that anybody should feel they need an apology from Tiger Woods or anybody else for that matter.

VIN0

Ees no need respect of pokerface. Glorious Nation has respect and is pay wages.

Ave couldnt care less Calves

moray_gub

dougzz wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

I thought his apology was a pathetic stage managed affair and most folk i talked too said it did him more harm than good ,a PR disaster really. So he screws around big f*ckin deal, he doesnt need to apologise to me or anybody else..........except maybe his wife !

But Moray, and you too Denis, as RichN95 put it IMG didn't. So in terms of handling the public perception do you consider yourself a better judge than the people at IMG?

You have to remember that your friends will typically reflect similar views to yourself or they most likely wouldn't be your friends, so they're not necessarily representative of wider opinion. Tiger marketed (was marketed by IMG) himself as a family man, part of his appeal to the wider audience of his sponsors was this wholesome family man image. So when he trashed that family image in public, he needed to apologise to his family in public, obviously you'd hope he made some private 'real' apologies too, but there had to be a public demonstration of the apology to his family as part of rebuilding the image.

Just because the sponsorship is smaller, the same applies in cycling, if you want to come back after a PED (or PED related) ban, and you you want fan/sponsorship support then I think you need the circus of the public apology. Maybe he's just a better actor but David Millar has shown real contrition through his actions, and because of this I like him and therefore Garmin. It may be a small thing but when I had to buy Sat Navs for work I made sure they were Garmin and not alternates. Maybe that makes me a saddo, but so what

I think Tigers public apology was a disaster that given a chance again his PR people would not make again. As for David Millar for every one of him there is an Ivan Basso or Vino or Scarponi. If you are a talented rider you will get a top team gig. If Ricco shows himself to be that then he will ride for a top team again no doubt about it.

dennisn

Pokerface wrote:

These riders who refuse to say sorry - even though they have done their time - just don't get my respect.

All well and good. No problem. So all the rider, or whomever, has to do is say he's sorry? Doesn't have to mean it particularly, just say it? I'll buy that.
Here's one. Do the riders care if they get your respect? So you choose not to cheer for them alongside the road? Does it matter to them? How could it, they don't know you?
And after all, you're only one person, there are quite possibly other people who feel differently or even the same. No one has the time, energy, or even the desire to sort through who likes / dislikes him as a rider / person unless they're people he knows.

Pokerface

dennisn wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

These riders who refuse to say sorry - even though they have done their time - just don't get my respect.

All well and good. No problem. So all the rider, or whomever, has to do is say he's sorry? Doesn't have to mean it particularly, just say it? I'll buy that.
Here's one. Do the riders care if they get your respect? So you choose not to cheer for them alongside the road? Does it matter to them? How could it, they don't know you?
And after all, you're only one person, there are quite possibly other people who feel differently or even the same. No one has the time, energy, or even the desire to sort through who likes / dislikes him as a rider / person unless they're people he knows.

Honestly Dennis, some days I wish you would just go find another hobby.

dougzz

Moray Gub wrote:

I think Tigers public apology was a disaster that given a chance again his PR people would not make again. As for David Millar for every one of him there is an Ivan Basso or Vino or Scarponi. If you are a talented rider you will get a top team gig. If Ricco shows himself to be that then he will ride for a top team again no doubt about it.

So I assume from this you do think you're a better judge of how to handle a bad news story than IMG, no shortage of self confidence in the Moray house.

So the 2 time KOM and the man leading the GC of the TdF when dumped by his team is not a talented rider? Because he doesn't seem to have a top team gig these days.

dennisn

In regards to the "fans matter" debate. A little history of the Detroit Lions football team, whose home base is about 60 miles from me. The Lions have been a poor(mostly) and
mediocre(occasionally) team for the last FOUR DECADES. A few years back the "long suffering fans", to quote a local newspaper, became so upset with the team that many people started coming to the games with paper bags over their heads. Eyes cut out of course. There were even rowdy, sign carrying protesters in the parking lots on game day demanding the head, and other parts, of the teams General Manager. Whom they blamed for all things. This all died down after a bit. Well, the GM stayed on a few more years, until he had compiled a pretty pathetic won loss record and was then fired by the team owner. After a new GM was brought in the team promptly had a season in which they won ZERO games(0-16). Worst ever in the NFL. The only team ever to have a win-less season.
I bring this up because the owner paid, very little, if any attention to what the fans thought. I'm sure he didn't want a losing team either but listening to the fans, who of course, know how to run the team is really a bad idea, if not impossible. This is true with most teams. Owners, coaches, do what THEY think is right. Not what the fans want (other than a wining team). I think there attitude towards the fans is something like "if you think you can do a better job, go buy yourself a team and give it a shot". And possibly rightly so.
Oh sure, there are "fan appreciation days" in which the fan is declared to be next to God
in importance, yet beers are still 10 dollars and a funky hot-dog is 6.
So I guess I'm saying that , yes, we are important. We are the ones who pay for the games but we don't have a say in them. Only by not going can we voice an opinion, yet Lions Stadium still had good crowds, even during their 0-16 season.

dougzz

@Denis.
The NFL analogy is a poor one to this debate. Firstly in the NFL all ticket revenue (aside from luxury boxes) is shared between all the teams. The biggest source of income is TV money. So greedy owners have little incentive to be successful as it won't matter much to their revenue stream. It would have been a better example if the fans had ceased to buy their tickets rather than disguised themselves. The NFL has a unique position in American sports where success and fan base don't seem linked. How many years had the Giants, Packers and Jets sold out without winning, before the more recent successes?

The NFL must be one of the most publicity aware organisations in sports worldwide. How many players have indefinite suspensions for things not related to the sport that are at the whim of the commissioner? DId Pacman Jones do anything wrong on the field to earn his suspension, or Tank Johnson, or indeed the loveable Michael Vick? All were suspended for non NFL related things because the league does care about the attitude of sponsors, and the sponsors care because the fans are the consumers of the products they sell, and that argument goes round and around.

dennisn

dougzz wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

I think Tigers public apology was a disaster that given a chance again his PR people would not make again. As for David Millar for every one of him there is an Ivan Basso or Vino or Scarponi. If you are a talented rider you will get a top team gig. If Ricco shows himself to be that then he will ride for a top team again no doubt about it.

So the 2 time KOM and the man leading the GC of the TdF when dumped by his team is not a talented rider? Because he doesn't seem to have a top team gig these days.

I think there are many reasons for an athlete not to get a "top team gig" even though he may be a top rider. I could be drugs, it could be some scandal, it could be that he has a history of being a disruptive influence on teams and just isn't worth the trouble, or he may want too much money. I'm sure there are others reasons also. For us to say it's drug related is pure speculation. Might be, might not.

iainf72

dougzz wrote:

@Denis.
The NFL analogy is a poor one to this debate.

Dougzz - I believe you just pwned Dennis

dennisn

dougzz wrote:

@Denis.
The NFL analogy is a poor one to this debate. Firstly in the NFL all ticket revenue (aside from luxury boxes) is shared between all the teams. The biggest source of income is TV money. So greedy owners have little incentive to be successful as it won't matter much to their revenue stream. It would have been a better example if the fans had ceased to buy their tickets rather than disguised themselves. The NFL has a unique position in American sports where success and fan base don't seem linked. How many years had the Giants, Packers and Jets sold out without winning, before the more recent successes?

The NFL must be one of the most publicity aware organisations in sports worldwide. How many players have indefinite suspensions for things not related to the sport that are at the whim of the commissioner? DId Pacman Jones do anything wrong on the field to earn his suspension, or Tank Johnson, or indeed the loveable Michael Vick? All were suspended for non NFL related things because the league does care about the attitude of sponsors, and the sponsors care because the fans are the consumers of the products they sell, and that argument goes round and around.

But isn't the lovable Michael Vick playing again? And if I recall, there seems to be more than a few players who have had problems ranging from drugs, to guns, to spousal abuse who have been symbolically "busted" only to return to the playing field after a "suitable" time off. I would say the NFL "cares", until the heat is off and then they forgive and forget. Fans do the same(well most do). I don't see cycling being any different in that respect.

moray_gub

dougzz wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

I think Tigers public apology was a disaster that given a chance again his PR people would not make again. As for David Millar for every one of him there is an Ivan Basso or Vino or Scarponi. If you are a talented rider you will get a top team gig. If Ricco shows himself to be that then he will ride for a top team again no doubt about it.

So I assume from this you do think you're a better judge of how to handle a bad news story than IMG, no shortage of self confidence in the Moray house.

So the 2 time KOM and the man leading the GC of the TdF when dumped by his team is not a talented rider? Because he doesn't seem to have a top team gig these days.

I think IMG handled it very poorly made him look a fanny to be honest,as for the Chicken his age and the circumstances of his removal from the tour and subsequent legal wranglings are contributory factors to him not getting a gig. He was quality rider i doubt he is any more.

dennisn

Pokerface wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

These riders who refuse to say sorry - even though they have done their time - just don't get my respect.

All well and good. No problem. So all the rider, or whomever, has to do is say he's sorry? Doesn't have to mean it particularly, just say it? I'll buy that.
Here's one. Do the riders care if they get your respect? So you choose not to cheer for them alongside the road? Does it matter to them? How could it, they don't know you?
And after all, you're only one person, there are quite possibly other people who feel differently or even the same. No one has the time, energy, or even the desire to sort through who likes / dislikes him as a rider / person unless they're people he knows.

Honestly Dennis, some days I wish you would just go find another hobby.

If you think you've got issues with me or that I just plain p*ss you off at times, think of my wife of 28 years. Talk about suffering the tortures of the d*mned. You've got it easy.

dennisn

iainf72 wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

Iain in the the wider scheme of things mate your a punter who posts on a forum lets not get carried away here eh ! Anyway he has served his time and he has a right to come back and ride whether you like it or not Also irrelevant is the level of his apology. To be frank anybody that thinks they are due some sort of apology from pro rider needs to have a think to themslves.

Of course I don't think I'm due an apology. But if he did attempt to apologise etc and appear to regret his actions then perhaps he'd get a decent ride. He doesn't have to do anything but it might make his life easier, eh?

You make a good point. While the fans may see right through any apology, as either forced or not meaningful, it must be part of the larger game of public relations in that the sponsors need the athlete to humble himself(a least to them) a little so that they know they, not him, are in control. And the athlete knows it too. I'm sure the sponsors want that warm fuzzy feeling of WE ARE IN CHARGE.