Traffic Light Etiquette

on the road

If it's early in the morning and all the roads are empty, then you can't annoy any motorists by going through a red light if there's no one there to annoy.

roger_merriman

on the road wrote:

If it's early in the morning and all the roads are empty, then you can't annoy any motorists by going through a red light if there's no one there to annoy.

true but at that time any car that does arrive is likely to blast though on green not look for a RLJ bike.

by the time you've slowed to check might as well stop and wait

on the road

roger merriman wrote:

on the road wrote:

If it's early in the morning and all the roads are empty, then you can't annoy any motorists by going through a red light if there's no one there to annoy.

true but at that time any car that does arrive is likely to blast though on green not look for a RLJ bike.

That's assuming you can't see around the corner, but if you can see for miles in both directions and there's no traffic, then you might as well go through. No cyclist with any sense is going to bomb through a red light without checking it's safe to do so first.

antfly

Am I right in saying cyclists don`t have to stop at pedestrian red lights as long as there is no-one crossing on your side of the road or they have already crossed?
I never stop anyway, I think it`s legal.

on the road

antfly wrote:

Am I right in saying cyclists don`t have to stop at pedestrian red lights as long as there is no-one crossing on your side of the road or they have already crossed?
I never stop anyway, I think it`s legal.

Actually you do have to stop if it's showing a red light, but if there's no one crossing then I always go through.

roger_merriman

on the road wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

on the road wrote:

If it's early in the morning and all the roads are empty, then you can't annoy any motorists by going through a red light if there's no one there to annoy.

true but at that time any car that does arrive is likely to blast though on green not look for a RLJ bike.

That's assuming you can't see around the corner, but if you can see for miles in both directions and there's no traffic, then you might as well go through. No cyclist with any sense is going to bomb through a red light without checking it's safe to do so first.

thats a very big if, the number of junctions with that good sight lines is going to be low, very low indeed.

antfly

on the road wrote:

antfly wrote:

Am I right in saying cyclists don`t have to stop at pedestrian red lights as long as there is no-one crossing on your side of the road or they have already crossed?
I never stop anyway, I think it`s legal.

Actually you do have to stop if it's showing a red light, but if there's no one crossing then I always go through.

I thought I read somewhere it was legal, perhaps I shouldn`t do it right under the police`s nose then though they`ve never been bothered anyway and it would feel stupid to stop.

Pross

antfly wrote:

Am I right in saying cyclists don`t have to stop at pedestrian red lights as long as there is no-one crossing on your side of the road or they have already crossed?
I never stop anyway, I think it`s legal.

If you mean a red light on the road while there's a green man then of course you have to stop - why do you think you wouldn't? Cyclists are also supposed to give way at zebra crossings but I regularly see them go straight through and have even seen a pedestrian knocked over in that way. If we want the right to ride on the road which other road users seem keen to take from us then we have to abide by the same rules as other road users. If a junction is clear in the early morning and we are driving we don't drive through a red (I hope!), why does being on a bike make it acceptable? I drive a lot in Cardiff and some of the actions of cyclists make me cringe, even as an experienced cyclist myself they are still the ones that stick in my mind rather than the 75-80% who are riding correctly.

Chip \'oyler

It's unbelievable :evil:

Cyclists are always on here moaning about how they're not respected by other motorists, are knocked off or nearly knocked off by negligent drivers - yet some still jump red lights :roll:

Problem is the actions of the minority of RLJers has repercussions for the majority of cyclists who follow the rules of the road.

I'm afraid if any RLJers do end up being injured then expect no sympathy from me you Nob heads.

awallace

Can i stir things up?? do you wear a helmet whilst RLJing? - sorry just trying to get a bite

Seriously though I dont RLJ on the basis that i dont want to be hypocritical by slating a driver for not sticking to the rules. If a car crept through a red light at 5 mph looking very carefully and being extremely caustious would that be acceptable as that seems to be the feeling of RLJers.

MrChuck

Down/Up wrote:

I recommend jumping the red light if you are certain it is safe and their and no peds around. A large number of the cyclist casualties in London are from HGV making right turns and running over cyclists on the kerb side who are either going straight ahead or also turning left. So my vote is get the around that corner as quickly and safely as possible, under no circumstances should you be lurking around the kerb on the left side of traffic waiting for the lights to change. Either use the cyclist advance stop box or if there isn't one just plonk yourself right in fornt of the cars, or even better make the left turn when its safe to do so, not when the light tell you to. I'd rather be annoy a few motorists than put intentionally put myself in one of the most dangerous positions on the road.

There are other ways to avoid being put in danger by traffic turning left you know.
(I assume you meant left!)

on the road

roger merriman wrote:

on the road wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

on the road wrote:

If it's early in the morning and all the roads are empty, then you can't annoy any motorists by going through a red light if there's no one there to annoy.

true but at that time any car that does arrive is likely to blast though on green not look for a RLJ bike.

That's assuming you can't see around the corner, but if you can see for miles in both directions and there's no traffic, then you might as well go through. No cyclist with any sense is going to bomb through a red light without checking it's safe to do so first.

thats a very big if, the number of junctions with that good sight lines is going to be low, very low indeed.

Then at such junctions it's wise to stop, but if you can see far ahead enough in either direction then it's probably safe to go.

Down/Up

Pross wrote:

Down/Up wrote:

I recommend jumping the red light if you are certain it is safe and their and no peds around. A large number of the cyclist casualties in London are from HGV making right turns and running over cyclists on the kerb side who are either going straight ahead or also turning left. So my vote is get the around that corner as quickly and safely as possible, under no circumstances should you be lurking around the kerb on the left side of traffic waiting for the lights to change. Either use the cyclist advance stop box or if there isn't one just plonk yourself right in fornt of the cars, or even better make the left turn when its safe to do so, not when the light tell you to. I'd rather be annoy a few motorists than put intentionally put myself in one of the most dangerous positions on the road.

Surely, unless you are at the front of the queue already, you need to go down the left hand side of the traffic before you can turn left? If you are doing this and are half way along an artic when the lights turn green there is a very good chance you are going to get cut up. Or do you go between lanes / down the right of the queue and then cut across the front of vehicles? Just sit in the middle of your lane and wait your turn to go through the green light or dismount and walk through the junction. Trying to justify it as being safer is ridiculous.

I'm not sure where you ride, but in London there are a very large number of advanced stop boxes for cyclists with bike lanes running down the left hand side of traffic and into these boxes, combined with roads with 100+ cyclists on the same stretch of road. The ASL work well if used properly, in that cyclists can filter down the kerb side of traffic and position themselves in front of the cars legally and relatively safely. Unfortunately as you point out people often miss time this and get caught out by the traffic starting to move again, if the drivers aren't aware of what is going on there can be incidents. The biggest problem however is that cyclists don't know or are not confident enough to use them properly and tend to shy up on the left of cars instead of in the prime position in the box. I assume this is because they don't want all those nasty drivers honking their horns and getting impatient.

Edit: Here we go for all the newbies, a little bit of info on Advanced Stop Lines and how to use them, plus what dangers to look out for.
http://bicycle-training.suite101.com/article.cfm/how_to_use_an_advanced_stop_line_for_cyclists

So if your in the ASL and are making a left turn, you've checked for pedestrians and cars just go for it, it is the safest thing you can do in the situation. This is allowed under the traffic rules in a number of other countries that are considered more cyclist friendly than UK and it works very well. Maybe if enough people do it, and law makers start to understand that it is the safest behaviour in certain circumstances it will become legal here, much like allowing cyclists to go the wrong way up certain one-way streets.

KillerMetre

Down/Up wrote:

I recommend jumping the red light if you are certain it is safe and their and no peds around. A large number of the cyclist casualties in London are from HGV making right turns and running over cyclists on the kerb side who are either going straight ahead or also turning left. So my vote is get the around that corner as quickly and safely as possible, under no circumstances should you be lurking around the kerb on the left side of traffic waiting for the lights to change. Either use the cyclist advance stop box or if there isn't one just plonk yourself right in fornt of the cars, or even better make the left turn when its safe to do so, not when the light tell you to. I'd rather be annoy a few motorists than put intentionally put myself in one of the most dangerous positions on the road.

I will never understand why some cyclists find it so hard to TAKE THE LANE.The left is for when the traffic is flowing freely.At junctions take the lane,at lights take the lane,at roundabouts take the lane.Its really not a difficult concept.

Down/Up

KillerMetre wrote:

Down/Up wrote:

I recommend jumping the red light if you are certain it is safe and their and no peds around. A large number of the cyclist casualties in London are from HGV making right turns and running over cyclists on the kerb side who are either going straight ahead or also turning left. So my vote is get the around that corner as quickly and safely as possible, under no circumstances should you be lurking around the kerb on the left side of traffic waiting for the lights to change. Either use the cyclist advance stop box or if there isn't one just plonk yourself right in fornt of the cars, or even better make the left turn when its safe to do so, not when the light tell you to. I'd rather be annoy a few motorists than put intentionally put myself in one of the most dangerous positions on the road.

I will never understand why some cyclists find it so hard to TAKE THE LANE.The left is for when the traffic is flowing freely.At junctions take the lane,at lights take the lane,at roundabouts take the lane.Its really not a difficult concept.

Problem is you have all these cycle lanes painted on the left hand side of the road which encourage cyclists to stick to the left all the way up to the traffic lights, then they get there and have nowhere to go because they won't move into the dominant road position or won't pull of a safe sneaky left turn because its illegal and "wrong" and might piss off some guy in a car stuck at the lights.

Ben6899

Paul32uk wrote:

I have also experienced junctions where my weight is simply not enough to trigger the sensors to say something is waiting at the lights. What do you do in this situation? If you say get off and walk across again why bother? there is nothing there!!

It's nothing to do with weight... traffic light sensors use induction loops. A bike will break the loop and trigger the light. If you're waiting in the correct location.

Down/Up

Ben6899 wrote:

Paul32uk wrote:

I have also experienced junctions where my weight is simply not enough to trigger the sensors to say something is waiting at the lights. What do you do in this situation? If you say get off and walk across again why bother? there is nothing there!!

It's nothing to do with weight... traffic light sensors use induction loops. A bike will break the loop and trigger the light. If you're waiting in the correct location.

Not if your riding a modern carbon road bike, inductive loops really on the magnetic field being disturbed by a big lump of steel (car). There is simply not enough metal in me and my bike to trigger an inductive loop activated light.

Ben6899

I know how induction loops work.

I have triggered them on my carbon bike... maybe by drivetrain was lined up just right?

on the road

Ben6899 wrote:

Paul32uk wrote:

I have also experienced junctions where my weight is simply not enough to trigger the sensors to say something is waiting at the lights. What do you do in this situation? If you say get off and walk across again why bother? there is nothing there!!

It's nothing to do with weight... traffic light sensors use induction loops. A bike will break the loop and trigger the light. If you're waiting in the correct location.

That's just it, if you're in the wrong location the lights will be stuck on red.

Jennyinwaiting

Bikes have to keep to the same road rules that cars do, by law. It's not really an issue of etiquette :P
I don't quite understand why cyclists would go through red lights anyhow - if they get involved in an accident with a car, they're going to be the one that gets hurt!! Plus, I do know people that have been pulled over by the police for cycling through red lights!
There are certain situations, however, where it's safer for you to go through. For example, when you are next to a large vehicle that can't see you, which might turn when the light goes green. Personally though, I wouldn't jump the light, i'd just get off my bike and cross with the pedestrians!

rick_chasey

Jennyinwaiting wrote:

Bikes have to keep to the same road rules that cars do, by law. It's not really an issue of etiquette :P

Just because it's the law, doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing to do.

Most European countries make seperate road rules for cars and bicycles, given that they have different effects on, and requirements of, traffic.

There are some instances where it makes no difference to a cyclist's safety whether they stop for the red light or not.

I don't jump red lights for my own reasons, but the law argument, as far as I am concerned, only brings into question the obsolete nature of the law, rather than the person jumping red lights.

kanto

I don't skip red lights, I think it is best to try and behave like a car would in these situations.

But today, and other days I really felt like skipping through a red light because the solo person at the light was a guy on a bike. I did wait until he crossed though. Nothing worse when you are on the road and have to stop for someone who is crossing the lights with their bike, when they are grown adults cycling on the pavement.

Pross

Down/up, I don't live in London but I am a highway engineer and road safety auditor and understand ASLs. Personally I don't like them for the very reasons you point out regarding left turners (as well as putting cyclists directly in the firing line of those who mistake traffic lights for the starting lights at a GP) and actually feel they are safer when they have an approach lane in the centre of two traffic lanes. That said if the cycle lane on the approach is full width then it should be obvious to drivers that cyclists may be there. Unfortunately, in Bristol and other areas the approach lanes can be ridiculously narrow (half a metre!) and are shoe horned in after it was realised that the cyclists need a break in the first stop line to legally cross into the ASL area! BTW induction loops don't always work on bikes due to the low amount of metal, some ASLs have butterfly loops that are more sensitive but the signals will change on their standard timings if nothing is sensed anyway. Most traffic signals run on an old 3 loop system and aren't particularly intelligent at adjusting to suit demand. The only time you'll be stuck on red is if you are using a very minor arm, such as a private drive, where the phase is only called up on demand.

Down/Up

Pross, I agree ASL are not a good solution for the same reason as you they tend to make inexperienced cyclists feel that its always safe to filter down the left hand lane. I think there is about 3 miles of my commute that is literally riding alongside stationary lines of traffic; Chelsea Embankment and a few other stretches from SW London into the city centre. In these situations riding like a car and taking up a lane at red lights is so counter-productive it makes no sense. I could sit still in traffic or I could do the same thing as the hundreds of other cyclists and filter up the left (or middle I feel it is safe and appropriate and helps me avoid a "dooring"). There is one intersection where I nearly always run a red light to make a left turn off the Embankment. I am very careful and have never had any incidents with pedestrians there, and running the red light allows me to get around the corner before the commuter car and bike GP starts behind me. It also allows me to catch the tail end of the traffic and make the next lights happily and safely.

If I had some photos of my commute you would be astounded by the number of cyclist I encounter at some intersections on my commute (50-100 easily) all trying to find a safe place stop and wait at the light, some people blocking the cycle lane so others can't enter the ASL, motorbikes in the ASL scaring the hell out of first time commuters on their new ride-to-work bikes etc. Its at the point where cars will struggle to make a left turn because of the line of cyclists trying to get ahead. If cyclists were allowed to make the left hand turn against the red lights it would greatly reduce the number clogging up major intersections making life safer for all.
Trying to treat a bicycle the same as a car as far as road rules go just doesn't make any sense and in my opinion just discourages cycle commuting.

bigpikle

I stop at red lights, but today had a dilemma...

A set of roadworks on a main road that took the road down to 1 lane for about 300m. It was very busy and there were big queues waiting at both ends. I was torn about what to do, as I was conscious I would hold up the traffic while riding down the reduced lane as there wasnt enough room for a safe overtake the way the cones were placed. That would mean a lot of drivers having to wait even longer as a result - not a huge issue but I know I would be a little annoyed.

I cruised to the front of the queue and as soon as the oncoming traffic stopped I went for it - through the temporary red light. I sprinted as fast as I could and made most of the distance before being caught by the cars from behind, and was actually able to duck through the cones into the closed lane for the final 50m and allow traffic to quickly pass. I didnt get any abuse but was conscious of jumping the lights but with the intention on not holding up traffic any more than I could...

What would others do here?

Bullet1

Oooh......contraversial.

Adding 'good old fashioned common sense' into the equation!

IMO, I'd say you did the right thing but them I'm the one who started the thread by asking what I thought to be a simple qustion and is shocked that 3 pages of opinions have been posted!

The correct answer would be to take a detour as you're in a lose/lose position.

1) Cut through on red.......you piss motorist off and breaking the law (but they still get to their destination on time)
2) You wait until green........you piss motorists off, you're in their way and the get to work 2 minutes later!

Down/Up

Bullet1 wrote:

Oooh......contraversial.

Adding 'good old fashioned common sense' into the equation!

IMO, I'd say you did the right thing but them I'm the one who started the thread by asking what I thought to be a simple qustion and is shocked that 3 pages of opinions have been posted!

The correct answer would be to take a detour as you're in a lose/lose position.

1) Cut through on red.......you wee-wee motorist off and breaking the law (but they still get to their destination on time)
2) You wait until green........you wee-wee motorists off, you're in their way and the get to work 2 minutes later!

You shouldn't feel bad about taking the dominant position on the road, if there is no alternative take the middle of the lane so drivers have to overtake you like they would a car, over 300m they will loose a few seconds unless your really slow. I would do the same thing and waited till its clear then headed through the red lights. Don't jump many red lights while commuting as there are too many drivers who like to race to make the red and come through with way to much speed, but as stated before there are a few sneaky left hand turns I make.

lukasran

dare i say it sound as though you are putting politeness in front of your own safety?
i think you should just trust your judgement as described by many rational people on this thread. i am fairly new to this commuting lark and so far have loved the freedom the bike gives and fully exploited it to my personal health and safety requirements. obviously not as stringent as others around here.

STEFANOS4784

The onl;y way i'd ever RLJ is if no-one else was anywhere for miles around......

Down/Up

STEFANOS4784 wrote:

The onl;y way i'd ever RLJ is if no-one else was anywhere for miles around......

Really? What if a heavy goods vehicle was on your left and you were concerned the driver hadn't/couldn't see you. Would you really just stand there and get squashed?