Dave Lloyd on power meters...

13

Comments

  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    redddraggon wrote:
    freehub wrote:
    I love power meters, I want my own one day, it gives me a massivly better and more accurate idea of how I am performing and how better/worse I am performing compared to other rides.

    Would you rather have a powermeter, or Dave Lloyd's ability?

    I'd rather have his ability. But you can't buy that.


    FWIW - some of the best coaches in the world have never played the sport they are coaching. And some of the worst coaches have been very successful players.

    Isn't Lloyd just using his natural-born talent as a marketing tool? Had he been trained with modern methods - wouldn't he have been an even better rider?

    And as a coach, if he is just using dated training methods, then he isn't going to be as effective as a coach who uses those older methods but also embrace new, modern methods.

    The only way to know would be to have him and another 'modern' coach work with the same athlete and see who gets better results. And even that wouldn't give quantitative results.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    cougie wrote:
    Not used one myself - but I'd think they could be useful tools for serious cyclists who understand them.

    You DO need to understand them. But you don't need to be a serious cyclist. And it takes maybe an hour to understand what the figures mean and how they relate to your training.

    Probably about the same amount of time it takes to figure out how to use a new Speedo/GR monitor.
  • softlad
    softlad Posts: 3,513
    doyler78 wrote:
    He made the comments not me or anybody else here so don't blame those of us that do use power for rolling our eyes at his remarks.

    If you'd read/understood what I've been saying, you would see that I have not spoken out for - or against - power meters. I am simply speaking for Dave Lloyd's right to hold his own opinion. Seems to me that the only people getting upset on this thread are those with power meters.....
    doyler78 wrote:
    Read your last line in your last paragraph and apply that to your second paragraph :wink:

    I just did as you asked - it made no difference.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Lloyd of course has a right to an opinion. Other people also have a right to an opinion of that opinion.

    So, where does that leave us?
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • Splottboy
    Splottboy Posts: 3,695
    Very opinionnated???
  • softlad
    softlad Posts: 3,513
    DaveyL wrote:

    So, where does that leave us?

    it leaves those who were calling him a 'tool' looking a bit silly......
  • Splottboy
    Splottboy Posts: 3,695
    I thought opinions were like a-holes.
    We all have one, and most of 'em stink.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Just received an e-mail telling me that Lloydy is now well into power meters, but he can't be doing with all that SRM and PowerTap guff. No, the iAero is the way forward:

    "I have always been totally anti-Power Meter, because I thought they were the biggest rip off out there, as they were just SO expensive. I mean £3,000 on a training tool... ARE YOU MAD !! But now a US Company headed by a smart gent called John Hamann, has brought out an inexpensive way to measure Power which is super accurate and who has helped me over the last 4-5 months to test the products I'm now showing you. I have really had a very good look at the iAero and iPro and to me they are just so accurate and do so many functions, they are by FAR the best value out there.

    I have taken to the product so much , I have become John's Distributor in the UK and UAE and now have these beauties to sell...

    The iPro is £515 plus Postage and the iAero is £599 plus Postage...

    At last someone has come up with a way to measure Power and do all the other things you would expect from a great Computer, like Downloads and very easy Analyses of these downloads. You can programme your own Power Interval Sessions and Lap times etc.etc. It also gives you a very accurate Profile of the training route you have just ridden and is a super-accurate calorie couter (if you are into counting calories that is !!) .. But one heck of a tool for you guys ..."

    £515-599? Has anyone told him you can get a PowerTap for not much more than that?
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • jibberjim
    jibberjim Posts: 2,810
    DaveyL wrote:
    £515-599? Has anyone told him you can get a PowerTap for not much more than that?

    but he doesn't take a cut on those...
    Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/
  • pinkbikini
    pinkbikini Posts: 876
    edited June 2010
    Yeah, I got that email too. Made me laugh - what a hypocrite!

    Edit: just had a look at the iBike site - they seem very reluctant to say how the power is actually measured - couldn't find any info anywhere.
  • hopper1
    hopper1 Posts: 4,389
    pinkbikini wrote:
    Yeah, I got that email too. Made me laugh - what a hypocrite!

    Yep.. Certainly looks that way!
    Start with a budget, finish with a mortgage!
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    I thought Dave Lloyd was into going forwards, not back-pedalling...
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    pinkbikini wrote:
    Yeah, I got that email too. Made me laugh - what a hypocrite!

    Edit: just had a look at the iBike site - they seem very reluctant to say how the power is actually measured - couldn't find any info anywhere.

    It apparently calibrates itself from the wind. Useless on a turbo.
  • ballspondroad
    ballspondroad Posts: 181
    Apparently,

    "IBike uses a number of simple sensors and a very sophisticated program written in to an ultra-fast processor to give you real-time power data. The sensors are: a speedometer, an accelerometer (measures acceleration and road gradient), a barometer (for altitude), and an air pressure sensor (wind is usually the biggest force opposing a cyclist). There is a certain amount of redundancy built into the system, like wind speed and speed, so that it can better determine oppositional forces. Those oppositional forces are what the iBike is measuring and translating into power. Creating formulas to better bias certain measurements over others in certain situations is what helps make the iBike's power measurement accurate."
  • pinkbikini
    pinkbikini Posts: 876
    ballspondroad wrote:
    Apparently,

    "IBike uses a number of simple sensors and a very sophisticated program written in to an ultra-fast processor to give you real-time power data. The sensors are: a speedometer, an accelerometer (measures acceleration and road gradient), a barometer (for altitude), and an air pressure sensor (wind is usually the biggest force opposing a cyclist). There is a certain amount of redundancy built into the system, like wind speed and speed, so that it can better determine oppositional forces. Those oppositional forces are what the iBike is measuring and translating into power. Creating formulas to better bias certain measurements over others in certain situations is what helps make the iBike's power measurement accurate."

    Thanks. Seems they've gone to a lot of trouble to take a guess-timate at power then. I saw that it has a 'trainer' mode for a wind trainer (turbo). That'll be a speedo then? Bizarre.
  • shockedsoshocked
    shockedsoshocked Posts: 4,021
    DaveyL wrote:
    Just received an e-mail telling me that Lloydy is now well into power meters, but he can't be doing with all that SRM and PowerTap guff. No, the iAero is the way forward:

    "I have always been totally anti-Power Meter, because I thought they were the biggest rip off out there, as they were just SO expensive. I mean £3,000 on a training tool... ARE YOU MAD !! But now a US Company headed by a smart gent called John Hamann, has brought out an inexpensive way to measure Power which is super accurate and who has helped me over the last 4-5 months to test the products I'm now showing you. I have really had a very good look at the iAero and iPro and to me they are just so accurate and do so many functions, they are by FAR the best value out there.

    I have taken to the product so much , I have become John's Distributor in the UK and UAE and now have these beauties to sell...

    The iPro is £515 plus Postage and the iAero is £599 plus Postage...

    At last someone has come up with a way to measure Power and do all the other things you would expect from a great Computer, like Downloads and very easy Analyses of these downloads. You can programme your own Power Interval Sessions and Lap times etc.etc. It also gives you a very accurate Profile of the training route you have just ridden and is a super-accurate calorie couter (if you are into counting calories that is !!) .. But one heck of a tool for you guys ..."

    £515-599? Has anyone told him you can get a PowerTap for not much more than that?

    Are you sure that email was from Dave? It doesn't mention how good he was at any point :?
    "A cyclist has nothing to lose but his chain"

    PTP Runner Up 2015
  • Finbar Saunders
    Finbar Saunders Posts: 299
    and an air pressure sensor (wind is usually the biggest force opposing a cyclist)

    As I understand it the air sensor faces forward, in front of the rider. I wonder how it tells the difference between a 5mph tailwind and a 10mph tailwind?
    No-one wanted to eat Patagonia Toothfish so they renamed it Chilean Sea Bass and now it's in danger of over fishing!
  • ballspondroad
    ballspondroad Posts: 181
    by measuring the air speed compared to the bike speed ?
  • doyler78
    doyler78 Posts: 1,951
    ballspondroad wrote:
    by measuring the air speed compared to the bike speed ?

    And what of your position on the bike - would that not affect bike speed (or at least the amount of power required to be generated in order for the bike to travel at the same speed with the same wind conditions over the same terrain)?
  • ballspondroad
    ballspondroad Posts: 181
    Current power meters can only measure the power you are applying to the bike so you can't work out the absolute efficiency of the process that converts nutrients to muscular energy. But you can do comparisons. So, if you move the bike at the same speed in each position then the power is a measure of the relative efficiency.
  • doyler78
    doyler78 Posts: 1,951
    ballspondroad wrote:
    Current power meters can only measure the power you are applying to the bike so you can't work out the absolute efficiency of the process that converts nutrients to muscular energy. But you can do comparisons. So, if you move the bike at the same speed in each position then the power is a measure of the relative efficiency.

    Ok I think I get that however wrt to the whole issue of determining power on an ibike then positional changes we are saying are dependent on knowing the power yet we need to know the rider's position in order to determine the power. So we have a codependence between position & power. So how do you resolve that issue or does the ibike assume your position remains constant?
  • ballspondroad
    ballspondroad Posts: 181
    Sorry I'm being a bit slow - how does it tell a 'snake-hipped, arse waggling in air' from a 'lets see how far down the road I can see' stance ? It doesn't need to know this - if you are less aero then for the same power the bike will move more slowly and vice versa.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    I find it highly amusing how Lloyd slated power training to some tune then when he becomes the distributor of a powermeter it's amazing.

    He's also charging quite a lot more for it than our US cousins pay...
  • magliaceleste
    magliaceleste Posts: 748
    edited June 2010
    As an (previous) owner of 2 generations of iBike and an owner of PowerTaps, I feel qualified to answer these questions. Some of it is from memory so might be very slightly inaccurate. It's a bit long I'm afraid...

    The iBike requires careful calibration. First you input your rider total weight including bike, rider height and whether you'll be riding primarily on drops or hoods. You then do a slope/tit calibration by turning the bike 180 twice on the spot. Next you go out and do a bunch of coastdowns, guided by the unit. Basically this is a case of riding up to 20 mph and then coasting down to a near stop. This allows the unit to measure your CDA and the drag of your drivetrain/wheels. Next you do a 5 mile out and back ride on a straightish, traffic free road. This calibrates the wind port (the order was reversed in some firmware). There are shortcuts but they make it even less accurate.

    The amazing thing is it actually works. This little unit powered by 1 CR2032 battery can pretty accurately measure power (more so riding solo).

    The onscreen display contains more useful data than my Garmin 705 and measures slope more accurately. The iBike also features a built in bunch of workouts which is pretty cool (you can also add your own custom). The unit can also let you do an FTP test and calculate your W/Kg. The data downloaded is quite nice, being able to see the wind is neat. The single button interface of the unit is quite good.

    The thing was, I didn't believe that the iBike would work, I need some validation of the figures so I got a "cheap" Powertap. The irony was that on my summer bike the iBike was less than 2 watts out on average power over a typical ride. Support from Velocomp was absolutely fantastic.

    Here are the the things that killed the iBike for me though (I've swapped to Powertaps fully now):

    1. There is no backlight. Renders the unit almost useless in the winter unless you run a garmin alongside to receive the power data.

    2. The CR2032 battery can't cope with the cold. It seemed the iBike would not make long rides in the depths of winter without some problem.

    3. Calibration really is a faff. It takes time after time to get it right. How many non-windy days do we get in the UK. How many straight roads do we have? How many roads without traffic? Repeatability of calibrations is hit and miss, which makes you always question the unit.

    4. A minor one: the connection to the unit to download data was a bit flaky. The mount is a bit of a bugger as it's so tight.

    5. You can't block the windport. That means for time trialling, or heavier rain you need an remote wind sensor addon. The iBike has to be mounted rock steady.

    With the PT you mount your Garmin/LYC and go. The data is always accurate* and it just works. No other sensors are required. I like this.

    So apart from the fact the PT limits your choice of wheels (severely) and is a bit of a lump, knowing what I know now I'd take it over the iAero/iPro.

    Edit: A couple of side points.
    1. Footon Servetto are using the iBike this year.
    2. Velocomp, the makers have just announced the iBike Dash. Basically the iPhone becomes the display for the new iBike Dash unit.

    (* yes I know that's not always strictly true)
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    magliaceleste wrote:
    The irony was that on my summer bike the iBike was less than 2 watts out on average power over a typical ride.
    Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

    Note that ending up with same average power, while generally a good thing, is not always an indicator of the performance or accuracy of two power meters. It may have just been fortuitous. One needs to inspect the way each measures/records the power readings along the way.

    The ibike suffers the same deal breaking flaw that the Polar power meter and the ergomo has, i.e. it is impossible to validate the calibration of the unit (unless you use it along with another calibrated power meter).

    But as an entry to use of power in training, each of these meters will effectively perform the role of a gateway drug.
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • magliaceleste
    magliaceleste Posts: 748
    edited June 2010
    Thanks. Yes I agree entirely. The peaks and troughs of the iBike never quite matched the PTs measurements nor did the power graphs align.

    Relying on so many external inputs, It doesn't have the consistency of a PT.

    Unfortunately I recently deleted most of the comparison files The graph PT/iBike graphs overlaid were similar but in no way matched up which I always found strange.

    Here is one comparison summary. The DPFM on the right is a Powertap

    comparision.th.jpg

    The thing is the overall results were surprisingly similar in this case. To be fair, this was probably the closest they ever were.

    A lot of iBike users spend a lot of time getting their meters to match the DFPM. I never did, it just turned out right. This was after spending a fair time learning to calibrate the iBike properly though and many attempts.

    It's was a great to use power for the first time and I improved. It sure worked as a motivator and a gateway to power.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Odd that Lloyd is now endorsing this one, given his complaints about how he had to spend too much time fannying about with PowerTaps, SRMs and WKO+.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,464
    Forgive my ignorance on this issue but does the actual accuracy have a huge impact in a PM's use for training? Obviously it is good to know definitive results but if there is an error does it matter much as long as it is consistent? The reason for asking is that I want to get a power meter to improve the quality and structure of my training but looking at prices for Power Taps with a wheel build and head unit or the BB mounted units and the cost is around £1,000 minimum. Is it worth waiting the extra (probably very long) time to get the more accurate system or will spending half that on the likes of a Polar or iBike system be sufficient to measure progress and train at a consistent level? I guess the next stage down is to use the power calculators which seem to use the same variables as the iBike system but rely on manual input of wind speed and gradient data.

    Magliaceleste's comparison made interesting reading and was starting to pursuade me that maybe the cheaper system offers better value for money with the average power coming out so close but the comparison of max power is around 15% different.
  • Bronzie
    Bronzie Posts: 4,927
    Garbage in = garbage out

    The whole point of training with power is that the data provided is reliable and accurate. IMO you'd be better off training by feel or HR alone than this Ibike guesstimator.

    BTW You can pick up the entry level of Powertap Comp for around £500 new (it's not officially availble in the UK but I believe Cyclepowermeters can get them) - it's a wired system so not easy to transfer from bike to bike.

    Or of course you can hire one for 3 months (c.£10/wk) and see how you get on with it. Cyclepowermeters will refund 50% of the hire fees against a new one if you then decide to buy from them.
    It's a Lifestyle! -+-+- Coggan Training Levels
  • Finbar Saunders
    Finbar Saunders Posts: 299
    ballspondroad wrote:
    So, if you move the bike at the same speed in each position then the power is a measure of the relative efficiency.

    Regarding my point about tailwind...how much of the power required to move a bike at a constant speed comes from the rider with a 5 mph tailwind or with a 10 mph tailwind or a 25mph tailwind? I still don't understand how it differentiates the power from wind on a riders back versus the power the rider is applying to the forward motion. I can understand it for a PT as it directly measures the forces applied by the rider.
    No-one wanted to eat Patagonia Toothfish so they renamed it Chilean Sea Bass and now it's in danger of over fishing!

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